The PS1 was crippled in the 2D area?

[Ross PK]

Can anyone elaborate more on this?

 

*Edit*

 

Oops, sorry, I thought I was on the classic gaming board.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Ross PK

[Scumdogg]

If by crippled you mean the mental disability that convinced Sony that nobody wanted 2D games anymore, then yes, yes it was.

[Atari5200]

the machine was crippled for some 2d games, not all. Mostly the Capcom fighters. The system did not have enough ram to load all the frames of animation in. So games like Street Fighter Alpha II, III, Xmen vs Street Fighter, Marvel Vs street fighter, run with missing animations, choppy gameplay and in whole parts of the game altogether. Marvel Vs Street fighter is one on one instead of tag like the arcade.

 

Regular 2d games like adventures games that didn't involve alot of frames of animation could be loaded at one time so the game played flawlessly until the next time it had to load something different. Much like the Neo CD. The same thing would have happened to the Saturn as well, but luckily enough Sega was smart enough to make a 1mb or 4mb ram cart to compensate for this so the arcade 2d fighters that are on both systems you can see the Saturn was far superior with the Ram cart than the standard PS1. The Neo CD had i believe something weird like 7mb of Ram onboard to use to load games, so most games other than the fighters could load the entire game at the initial load, something that the Saturn nor the PS1 could do with any 2d game that i'm aware of. But for larger games like the KOF series, the memory was not enough and some games were crippled by long loads and basically just loading too often.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Atari5200

[Rybags]

I thought the specs more or less gave it "unlimited" sprites.

 

But RAM was a key problem - at least the N64 also had RAM expansion ability. From memory the PS1 only had 4.5 meg and something like 512K was needed for audio buffers.

 

Doesn't leave much considering you'd almost certainly need double buffering for the screen, which would take nearly 2 meg. Add the resident program code itself, and it goes some way to explain the way chunky textures that most games used. Maybe not so much due to hardware shortcomings, but lack of memory.

 

Back to 2D, I think the Abes games actually rendered in 3D, but of course the perspective was for the most part in 2D.

 

But, the PS1 was revolutionary for 1993 - and don't forget that a 1 meg SIMM for a '386 would have cost around $100 or more at the time.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Rybags

[Ross PK]

Wow, I guess that means I must have the best versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure on the Dreamcast, as I'm sure the only other console they are out on is the PS1.

[Scumdogg]

Wow, I guess that means I must have the best versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure on the Dreamcast, as I'm sure the only other console they are out on is the PS1.

 

 

Definitely. The Dreamcast is an amazing system for 2D fighters, i bought nearly every one they released for it.

[n8littlefield]

Wow, I guess that means I must have the best versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure on the Dreamcast, as I'm sure the only other console they are out on is the PS1.

Street Fighter Alpha 3 was released on the PS2 in the Street Fighter Alpha Collection. I haven't played it, but it seems to be pretty well scored on the few review sites I saw.

[Jess Ragan]

Wow, I guess that means I must have the best versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure on the Dreamcast, as I'm sure the only other console they are out on is the PS1.

 

Hmmm... not necessarily. It's generally agreed that Street Fighter Alpha 3 received its best translation on the Sega Saturn in Japan, and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure on the Playstation, although not the prettiest version of the game, had a story mode crammed with fun mini-games that the Dreamcast version is lacking.

 

I think the whole hullabaloo about the Playstation being 2D-handicapped is exaggerated. I've seen what the system can do when properly programmed... it's just that a lot of these Japanese titles were left out of the United States thanks to Sony's asinine "no 2D" policy (why no, I haven't reached my quota of posts whining about Sony and Microsoft, random obnoxious craphead!). Asuka 120% on the Playstation is a pretty impressive 2D fighter, and The Adventures of Little Ralph is a fun (if unforgiving) platformer with polished graphics. Metal Slug is a fine translation that suffers from excessive access times, but is otherwise almost as good as its Saturn counterpart. Fatal Fury: Dominated Minds is actually BETTER than its Neo-Geo counterpart (Real Bout Special) thanks to the inclusion of two new characters. And so on.

 

Excellent 2D games for the Playstation ARE out there... you just have to look around a little to find them.

 

JR

[Atari5200]

Wow, I guess that means I must have the best versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure on the Dreamcast, as I'm sure the only other console they are out on is the PS1.

 

 

 

. Metal Slug is a fine translation that suffers from excessive access times, but is otherwise almost as good as its Saturn counterpart

 

 

And the Saturn version would probably suffer from that as well but Metal Slug needed the 1mb ram cart, so i'm sure if the PS1 had ram carts as an option the 2d would have been arcade perfect.

[BrianC]

Wow, I guess that means I must have the best versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure on the Dreamcast, as I'm sure the only other console they are out on is the PS1.

 

 

Definitely. The Dreamcast is an amazing system for 2D fighters, i bought nearly every one they released for it.

 

The DC has some nice 2D fighters, but the DC Street Fighter Alpha 3/Street Fighter Zero 3 is not the best version. It's a "tweaked" version that alters certain aspects of the game. V-Ism is less useful, for example. The resolution doesn't look as nice as the arcade and the sprites are smaller. Hit detection was messed with in a bad way. The JP Saturn version has generally been considered to be the best home version, though I heard the PS2 Street Fighter Alpha/Zero Collection version is also very good.

 

Metal Slug is a fine translation that suffers from excessive access times, but is otherwise almost as good as its Saturn counterpart.

 

I heard the PSX Metal Slug is missing more frames than the Saturn one. I also heard that the Saturn version has slowdown and loading times not in the original.

 

And the Saturn version would probably suffer from that as well but Metal Slug needed the 1mb ram cart, so i'm sure if the PS1 had ram carts as an option the 2d would have been arcade perfect.

 

The Saturn version of Metal Slug is not arcade perfect, despite requiring the 1mb ram.

 

The PSX has some very nice 2D games. Castlevania Symphony of the Night is an excellent example of this. Gradius Gaiden is one of the best Gradius games out there and makes very nice use of 2D. The PSX version of Twinbee Yahho in the Twinbee Deluxe Pack also turned out very well. I also heard that Donpachi is hands down better than the Saturn rev and that Dodonpachi is better in some ways. I wish Sony didn't have those policies for 2D games. Many excellent 2D games didn't arrive here.

Edited June 8, 2007 by BrianC

[Jess Ragan]

That's true. People always forget that the Saturn didn't come with those four megs of RAM built in... you had to buy them separately, just like the expansion cartridge released for the Nintendo 64. The Playstation didn't have peripherals like this available to it, but performs pretty well without them.

 

JR

[Scumdogg]

The DC has some nice 2D fighters, but the DC Street Fighter Alpha 3/Street Fighter Zero 3 is not the best version. It's a "tweaked" version that alters certain aspects of the game. V-Ism is less useful, for example. The resolution doesn't look as nice as the arcade and the sprites are smaller. Hit detection was messed with in a bad way. The JP Saturn version has generally been considered to be the best home version, though I heard the PS2 Street Fighter Alpha/Zero Collection version is also very good.

 

 

Ah, ok. I wasn't aware of that, not being much of an import gamer. Always wanted to get ahold of a Japanese Saturn though, and that gives me a bit more motivation.

[AtariJr]

yea, i have street fighter zero 3 for the saturn, and its the best versoin in my humble opinion. i have the game for the ps1 and the dreamcast, and i play this version the most. if you have the dreamcast version though i dont think its worth getting the saturn version as its very very very expensive.. one of the most expensive imports youll ever buy. i got mine for free, so thats why i have it.. but look at over 100 dollars for this title. with the 4mb expansion its simply beautiful.

 

as far as the topic, the playstation's 2d fighters were often on the saturn as well. id recommend the saturn version as most of them are better than the playstion becuase of the mb expansion like said above. however, i wanted to add that some games like Marvel's X-men Children of the Atom didnt bother to use the memory expansion, so its really not something to worry about when deciding which version you want (although id personally skip that game all together if i were you ). Like said above though it didnt help sony was making dev's push the 3d as at the time 2d was out, and not concidered the "new generation" even though the 2d titles often played/looked better.

 

if you want 2d games id suggest a Saturn as it's one of the best 2D powerhouses out there, especially for its relatively cheap pricetag and imports (with the exception of some of the very rare games like Dracula X, Metal Slug, SF03, Radiant Silvergun etc...)

[Ross PK]

This has got me thinking of another 2D topic.

[Ross PK]

Wow, I guess that means I must have the best versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure on the Dreamcast, as I'm sure the only other console they are out on is the PS1.

 

 

Definitely. The Dreamcast is an amazing system for 2D fighters, i bought nearly every one they released for it.

 

It was, I've got Powerstone (okay it's not 2D), SFA3, SF3S, CVS, Tech Romancer (Another that isn't 2d), and Jo' Jo's Bizarre Adventure.

 

I don't have any fighters on the PS2, it's quite strange though that there wasn't a scrolling 2D fighter on the DC, at least that I know of.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Ross PK

[Danno]

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is plenty of proof that the PS1 wasn't crippled 2D-wise. It just too more ingenious coding to get better results.

[kevincal]

Wow, I guess that means I must have the best versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure on the Dreamcast, as I'm sure the only other console they are out on is the PS1.

 

Hmmm... not necessarily. It's generally agreed that Street Fighter Alpha 3 received its best translation on the Sega Saturn in Japan, and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure on the Playstation, although not the prettiest version of the game, had a story mode crammed with fun mini-games that the Dreamcast version is lacking.

 

I think the whole hullabaloo about the Playstation being 2D-handicapped is exaggerated. I've seen what the system can do when properly programmed... it's just that a lot of these Japanese titles were left out of the United States thanks to Sony's asinine "no 2D" policy (why no, I haven't reached my quota of posts whining about Sony and Microsoft, random obnoxious craphead!). Asuka 120% on the Playstation is a pretty impressive 2D fighter, and The Adventures of Little Ralph is a fun (if unforgiving) platformer with polished graphics. Metal Slug is a fine translation that suffers from excessive access times, but is otherwise almost as good as its Saturn counterpart. Fatal Fury: Dominated Minds is actually BETTER than its Neo-Geo counterpart (Real Bout Special) thanks to the inclusion of two new characters. And so on.

 

Excellent 2D games for the Playstation ARE out there... you just have to look around a little to find them.

 

JR

 

I totally agree on the "Playstation being 2D-handicapped is exaggerated." Some people would have you believe the Saturn is light years better than the PS at 2D...when it's barely better in reality...

[liveinabin]

It was only crippled in direct comparison to the Saturn. It was still more capable than it's predecessors (SNES, Genesis). Not exactly handicapped.

[Flojomojo]

It was only crippled in direct comparison to the Saturn. It was still more capable than it's predecessors (SNES, Genesis). Not exactly handicapped.

I agree -- it wasn't so much crippled for 2D as it was optimized for 3D (and you could say that Saturn was the other way around). Both were very capable general-purpose machines, and the Playstation's lameness at 2D was greatly exaggerated.

[Fighter17]

If you know how to program, you can make the PS1 do better 2D games than the Saturn. Fighters needs RAM so the PS1 wasn't the best system for fighters. But when it comes to shmups is when the PSX is great with 2D games.

 

Philosoma for the PS1 wasn't the greatest shmup on earth, but it shows tons of 2D techniques which was impressive.

 

Raiden Project with has Raiden I and II were perfectly ported onto the PSX (Raiden II hads tons of sprites on screen in the later stages, and the PSX didn't slowdown one bit).

 

Gradius Gaiden (import) had tons of sprites 2D effects going crazy without slowdown one bit.

 

The best example of 2D programming on the PSX were from DonPachi and DoDonPachi (both were release in Japan only). Both arcade games were orginally developed by Cave (founded by former Toaplan members, the people behind Fire Shark, Zero Wing, Tiger Heli, and more) and were published in the arcades by Atlus. Atlus desides to port the games onto the Saturn, and the results were crap. For the system which had done great 2D conversions, DonPachi on the Saturn was pure shit (it was just about unplayable). DoDonPachi did better on the Saturn but the explosions were pixilnated, the sound quality was crap, and it has a little extra slowdown than the arcade port. In order to understand both Pachi's shooters, they're bullet-hell shooters which later in the game you can have 400 bullets on screen at once, and they are all going really fast!

 

Still with me, good. A company called S.P.S. decides to port both Pachi's shooters onto the PSX. People laughed at the company because if Atlus can't port both games correctly on the Saturn, then they can't do it either. Well when DonPachi came out on the PSX it blew everyone away. Why, because it was just about close to the arcade version (with lower sound quality). No pixilnation, no extra slowdown, hell the port looks like the arcade version. Even when DonPachi shows 400 bullets on screen the PSX doesn't slowdown at all. S.P.S. done it again when they ported DoDonPachi onto the PSX. It might have lower sound quality, but no pixilnation, and no slowdown. Hell there's even a button which you can press to slowdown the whole game for you!

 

If you know how to program, then you can do just about anything. If you look at ebay you can find plently of copies of DonPachi and DoDonPachi for the Saturn. But the PSX copies of both games are hard to find (well not DonPachi because the game was reprinted) because they were much better ports than the Saturn version.

 

If you have MAME, download both games and play them a lot. The PSX version is just about the same, not lying at all.

Edited June 18, 2007 by Fighter17

[Csonicgo]

I know I'm bumping this topic but this has to be said. 2D games on the Playstation were slim at best. the best one That I remember were Final Fantasy V and VI, and even on that the load times were atrocious. I'd expect some hyped "powerful" console like the Playstation to render 2d graphics easily. however, I wasn't wowed at all... Horrible Magic effects (flickering sprites for "translucency" on a Plasma screen looks shite) and the unexplained long loading times (it's just TILES and a character, it's not Need for Speed here!)...

 

The SNES could do better than the crap i was seeing. Probably why I spent my time playing Kirby's Super star. Best game for the SNES imo.

 

Not to say the games weren't fun. They=awesome. just, I was expecting something a little better for 30 dollars.

 

(actually, it was $50....)

[Hackmann]

the best one That I remember were Final Fantasy V and VI, and even on that the load times were atrocious. I'd expect some hyped "powerful" console like the Playstation to render 2d graphics easily. however, I wasn't wowed at all... Horrible Magic effects (flickering sprites for "translucency" on a Plasma screen looks shite) and the unexplained long loading times (it's just TILES and a character, it's not Need for Speed here!)...

You do realize that the 2D Final Fantasy games on the Playstation are straight SNES ports, right? The crappy graphical effects are faithful to the original SNES versions.

 

The long load times are unique to the PSX ports, but I don't think anybody's ever accused the Playstation of having short loading times.

[cimerians]

Sony wanted to move away from 2D. They discouraged it but developers did what they chose to do.

 

It wasn't "crippled".

 

Check out Metal Slug X, Castlevania SOTN and some 2d\3d hybrids like Tomba, Einhander, Suikoden and Tales of Destiny. (the latter being fully 2d RPG's IMO, when compared to FF7 through FF9)

[Csonicgo]

the best one That I remember were Final Fantasy V and VI, and even on that the load times were atrocious. I'd expect some hyped "powerful" console like the Playstation to render 2d graphics easily. however, I wasn't wowed at all... Horrible Magic effects (flickering sprites for "translucency" on a Plasma screen looks shite) and the unexplained long loading times (it's just TILES and a character, it's not Need for Speed here!)...

You do realize that the 2D Final Fantasy games on the Playstation are straight SNES ports, right? The crappy graphical effects are faithful to the original SNES versions.

 

The long load times are unique to the PSX ports, but I don't think anybody's ever accused the Playstation of having short loading times.

 

 

Then why didn't I get a port of Star Ocean?!

[mos6507]

But, the PS1 was revolutionary for 1993 - and don't forget that a 1 meg SIMM for a '386 would have cost around $100 or more at the time.

 

1993? I thought it came out in late 1994 in Japan and 1995 in the US.