kevincal Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 If the Jag had anywhere near the kind of 3rd party support Sony had for its Playstation, the Jag could have easily nipped at the PS's heels just like the Saturn did. But, the Playstation just did everything so right, in my opinion, that there was no beating it really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 If the Jag had anywhere near the kind of 3rd party support Sony had for its Playstation, the Jag could have easily nipped at the PS's heels just like the Saturn did. But, the Playstation just did everything so right, in my opinion, that there was no beating it really... The Jaguar needed the tools. They did not exsist....not in a form that made use of the jaguar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevincal Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 True. It seemed Atari was eager to get 3rd party support, according to interviews in the mid 90's...but I guess they forgot about the tools part...to help said 3rd parties. And on the first page of the tools manuals, it should say in huge font, "PLEASE USE MORE THAN THE 68K!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip_Cannon Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 I'm really curious to see some of Gorf's demos, but I don't have the resources to make it play properly and I may just be doing it wrong with emulators and such.. is there anyway maybe somebody can construct some video files and either post them here or on Youtube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 (edited) I'm really curious to see some of Gorf's demos, but I don't have the resources to make it play properly and I may just be doing it wrong with emulators and such.. is there anyway maybe somebody can construct some video files and either post them here or on Youtube? Here is a still of a ..well..you acn all decide what it looks like... Edited June 18, 2007 by Gorf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Right now these are with a lot of 68k code still and I am still getting 30-60 fps. We are using a lmao sample renderer from Atari that is seriuosly underperforming. It uses 16 bit data instead of 32/64 bit data...that is being changed and we know we will see a quadruple of perfomance enhancement from the new renderer alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip_Cannon Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 I'm really curious to see some of Gorf's demos, but I don't have the resources to make it play properly and I may just be doing it wrong with emulators and such.. is there anyway maybe somebody can construct some video files and either post them here or on Youtube? Here is a still of a ..well..you acn all decide what it looks like... Gorf, you seriously made me wet my pants as you're using graphics from my FAVORITE MOVIE OF ALL TIME!!! (aka THE GREATEST MOVIE OF ALL TIME!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmOneGarand Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 I'm really curious to see some of Gorf's demos, but I don't have the resources to make it play properly and I may just be doing it wrong with emulators and such.. is there anyway maybe somebody can construct some video files and either post them here or on Youtube? Here is a still of a ..well..you acn all decide what it looks like... Man, Deadly Discs of Tron 2000 would have been awesome hah hah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Kai Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Wow, Gorf I will admit those screens are pretty impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 (edited) I'm really curious to see some of Gorf's demos, but I don't have the resources to make it play properly and I may just be doing it wrong with emulators and such.. is there anyway maybe somebody can construct some video files and either post them here or on Youtube? Here is a still of a ..well..you acn all decide what it looks like... Gorf, you seriously made me wet my pants as you're using graphics from my FAVORITE MOVIE OF ALL TIME!!! (aka THE GREATEST MOVIE OF ALL TIME!!!) Then you may shit when you see the video.... Here....check this out... http://www.atariage.com/gorf/KylrByte.mpg Tron...well...I guess you recognized the Recognizer.... Edited June 18, 2007 by Gorf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Wow, Gorf I will admit those screens are pretty impressive. Stick wit me kid....you'll see what I've been saying...and remember, that is still a very unoptimized and 68k use version...we have plenty of room to play yet. No it WILL NOT have textures...the G-shading suits it way to well. Also the frame rate of the movie I just posted is half of what it actually moves at...my capture card is not the greatest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ovalbugmann Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Daaaaaaam, that lightcycle (Tron) game looks niiice man! Great work Gorf! Thanks for the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 A few posts up is a movie link. frig it...here...again. http://www.atariage.com/gorf/KylrByte.mpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmOneGarand Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Wow, Gorf I will admit those screens are pretty impressive. Stick wit me kid....you'll see what I've been saying...and remember, that is still a very unoptimized and 68k use version...we have plenty of room to play yet. No it WILL NOT have textures...the G-shading suits it way to well. Also the frame rate of the movie I just posted is half of what it actually moves at...my capture card is not the greatest. wow, great work Gorf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Wow, Gorf I will admit those screens are pretty impressive. Stick wit me kid....you'll see what I've been saying...and remember, that is still a very unoptimized and 68k use version...we have plenty of room to play yet. No it WILL NOT have textures...the G-shading suits it way to well. Also the frame rate of the movie I just posted is half of what it actually moves at...my capture card is not the greatest. wow, great work Gorf! Thanks, but it has a long way to go and it will be good or it just wont be. I wont release lameness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINGLE TOOTH Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 I was reading the interview with Mr. Tremiel and he said the Jaguar is as powerful, if not more powerful than the Saturn? Can anyone agree with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 I was reading the interview with Mr. Tremiel and he said the Jaguar is as powerful, if not more powerful than the Saturn? Can anyone agree with this? The whole argument of which is more powerful is TOTALLY subjective to what you ae doing. It all depends. If you are going to write a game suited to lower poly counts The Jaguar will give you a better quality texturing than the PSX. Im not sure about the Saturn though. The Saturn uses Super H processors. Those chips have a very robust instruction set and can do stuff like square root and heaveir math in a cycle or two and that make up for a lack of hardware. I would have loved to see an SH2 in the Jaguar instead of the 68k. The PSX or Saturn would not have stood a chance....Go look at Area 51 nxt time you are at an arcade. that is the Jagaur chip set...same speed..just more memory and a host processor that does not choke the bus with to one quarter an half the speed. The Jag will keep up if not out do them both in 2D. Thie Blitter and OPL are easily the most flexible combination for 2D anywhere. So much so that the Jaguar would indeed be the PERFECT Arcade classic emulator machine. IT could emulate anything before its time with the right code. You've seen the lousy horrid attepts on PSX and Saturn. You can tell these two machines are more suited for 3D than 2D even at a detriment. If you want tons of polies and do not mind the run of the mill 256 color (typical) color textures then the PSX is for you. the Jaguar may not beable to put up as much on the screen mainly due to lack of memory... (24 bit eats up a lot of memory) but it will out flex either machine hands down. 2D was not the main focus of Saturn and PSX...3D was. the Jaguar was intended to be the ultimate 2D machine with new 3d realistic capabilities. The fact is, if you take Tom And Jerry and use a MIPS R3000, You will CRUSH the PSX and the Saturn. the 68k just gets in the way. The Jaguar design is crippling Tom and Jerry. The cojag design is what it could have and should have been. The Jaguar would have cost $350 but I'd have still bought it and you would have a real fight in the 90's between the companies with Atari on top. They would have had 3 years and the MIPS/SH processors have REAL tools!!! It would have been a whole new ball game. if I were the Tramiels..this is the specs of the machine I would have released... The Jaguar was supposed to be 40 HMZ originally so we;ll compromise... and instead of SuperH or MIPS.... Seperate GPU RISC core at 32 mhz with 16k cache. This would have been possible as no blitter or opl silicon would be needed. Tom Jerry 4M RAM split up as follows. 1 meg RAM for Jerry on a seperate bus. sound running with no slowdown to any other processor. 2 meg RAM for TOM on a seperate bus. the Blitter and opl along with the GPU can run ALWAYS at top speed. Another 64k ram for CPU to CPU information sharing and to keep them in sync. All processors would run in parallel on their own busses at the same time. All info needed for the game level would be preloaded to its respective processor. Now!!!!... 26.29mhz times 3 is 79.77HMZ...NO BUS CONTENTIONS!!!!! EVER!!! ...well except when you dump info to the unified cahce for other processors to see. But you would TRULY get that speed (ideally that is) in parallel. So TOM can render at full speed NEVER being slowed down by the bus. The GPU core would be able to do some SERIOUS AI at the same time. The DSP with all of its own memory would have the sample loaded already, play them and be able to perform all types of seroius professional effects of them while playing back. The possiblities for TOM and Jerry are enourmous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 I was reading the interview with Mr. Tremiel and he said the Jaguar is as powerful, if not more powerful than the Saturn? Can anyone agree with this? Sounds like a simple black and white explanation for something that's pretty grey too me. I've always thought "power" is a term used by marketing people to give fanboys fodder and it's seldom that "cut and dry". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) I was reading the interview with Mr. Tremiel and he said the Jaguar is as powerful, if not more powerful than the Saturn? Can anyone agree with this? Sounds like a simple black and white explanation for something that's pretty grey too me. I've always thought "power" is a term used by marketing people to give fanboys fodder and it's seldom that "cut and dry". A good way to put it actually. Also, you have to remember when and what the machine was designed for. At the time Jagaur was intended to crush any other 2D machine of its time and did just that. It was the ONLY machine in a console price range that could handle 3D as well. Remember....Doom was the 3D of that day...psuedo skewed bit maps..not polies. The jag was given power well beyond that of those old school consoles. 3D like the PSX and the Saturn were not even seen on PC unless you could afford a serious high end PC back then. It was three years later when Sony and Sega stepped in. Atari would have been fine if they just made sure the tools were useful and aimed at the GPU/DSP...even possibly NOT allowing the 68k to do anything more than start up the system. If the tools were done properly, you would not need to worry about that old tech chip anyway. The trouble with this is Atari did not even know what we now know about the Jaguar. Even with better tools they would have missed a few things.....very important things. Let's face it..this was a new frontier and the Tramiels were not as prepared as they thought they were. Edited June 19, 2007 by Gorf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 A few posts up is a movie link.frig it...here...again. http://www.atariage.com/gorf/KylrByte.mpg Third pair of underwear this week - nice Gorf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmOneGarand Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 I was reading the interview with Mr. Tremiel and he said the Jaguar is as powerful, if not more powerful than the Saturn? Can anyone agree with this? The Tramiels were full of it, I wouldn't give anything they said the benefit of the doubt, it's their fault the Jag didn't fare too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) I was reading the interview with Mr. Tremiel and he said the Jaguar is as powerful, if not more powerful than the Saturn? Can anyone agree with this? The Tramiels were full of it, I wouldn't give anything they said the benefit of the doubt, it's their fault the Jag didn't fare too well. What the Tramiels did is design for the future, only to live in the past and present(the 'then' present of course). Edited June 19, 2007 by Gorf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TailChao Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) I wouldn't shortcut the Saturn's 2D capabilities so much, VDP1's quad rendering gives it a large advantage in drawing enormous amounts of sprite objects very quickly. Coupled with the enormous amount of backgrounds VDP2 can draw "for free," I wouldn't doubt the Saturn being able to out-render the Jaguar in all cases unless the Jaguar was heavily redesigned in the way Gorf has described. Take a look at Radiant Silvergun for example, the combination of loads of 2D objects and 3D models coupled with decent textures and heavy backgrounds all running at 60FPS is quite a feat in itself. The Jaguar's advantage is, and always will be, color and flexibility. Edited June 19, 2007 by TailChao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Gorilla Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) So Gorf on this subject of Jag vs PSX I was wondering about specific games. For exampleI was wondering if the Jag would've been able to do games such as Final Fantasy VII and FVIII as well as polygon heavy games like tomb raider as well as the PSX did them Edited June 19, 2007 by A_Gorilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorf Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 So Gorf on this subject of Jag vs PSX I was wondering about specific games. For exampleI was wondering if the Jag would've been able to do games such as Final Fantasy VII and FVIII as well as polygon heavy games like tomb raider as well as the PSX did them You need to read whatI have already posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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