COULD Jag have competed with the Playstation Graphically?

[Gorf]

Hehe. Things never change around here. You guys really should visit the Lynx forum here at AA sometime. You might learn something. We have such a peacefull atmosphere there.

 

This will change very quickly when someone enters your forum, deeply impressed with his knowledge about the Lynx, stating he is the only one able so far to unleash its power, and everyone who has a different picture of the Lynx is a liar and a fanboi...

 

We never post in fear of this happening . Last time it did we got someone claiming Lynx superiority over the Game Gear since it has a "Multiprocessing design like the Jaguar and 32-Bit sound" and something similar later on with the SNES/Genesis/TG-16. That didn't end well and we realized that it's useless to be fighting about opinions on the internet when, of course, none of us have the "correct" opinions anyway. Either that or we got hungry...

 

I cant even begine to tell you how I hate to argue this crap. I simply tell of my experience with

tha Jaguar and get attacked for it. Every system ever made had documentation that was later

found out to be incomplete. I get railed for dicsovering such a on the Jaguar. Why? I guess I really

should ignore these types of posts, but I hate seeing some of the utter nonsense about specs that

gets posted here.

 

 

...and I think the hunger did it personally.....

Edited June 21, 2007 by Gorf

[Gorf]

Vigo.....im done'debating' this subject....we obviuosly wont come to concession.

Let's just drop it and move on....if you wont...I am. Im just plain tired of typing

even the same thing over and over to try to rebutt. PS1 is a very powerful, even

more powerful machine than the Jaguar. For its Time the Jaguar was more than

anything else out there. It's potential has neer been fully eralized and I ask you to

give us here at 3DSSS a chance to show that without feeling the need to defend the

PS1. no one is attacking it in the first place. Now..Peace be still.

[Vigo]

I am tired of this discussion now too. However, I want to clarify some last things:

 

1. Although you want to see it differently, I actually like the way the Jaguar is designed and I can understand that its flexibility has a lot of appeal to die-hard coders. You want to see ma as a Sony fanboy, fine. I tell you, fanboys act differently. Fanboys want to downplay every possible aspect of their "enemy". I don't have an enemy, why should I? I actually see what the Jaguar can do better. Like I said, a software MP3 Player would be next to impossible on the Playstation, because the R3000 lacks the powerful MAC instructions, and the SPU can only play ADPCM compressed samples, which means you would have to recompress it again to play it back, which is not really possible on a 33Mhz R3000. The Z buffer is also a very big plus compared to the Playstation. Almost all early Playstation games have lots of problems with clipping. And yes, although you want to see it differently, I actually never disputed that the Jaguar blitter is flexible. It's just, i can't see how to utilize its flexibility most efficiently, achieving effects which are not possible on the Playstation at a reasonable speed. Perhaps I have to look at it again, and perhaps get a real machine someday to have a little play. Although you want to see me as a noob, I actually have lots of experience in 68k coding, and the RISC instruction set is very well documented in the developer docs, including rules how to pair operations most efficiently, avoiding speed penalties.

 

2. What really pissed me off was when someone quotes my sentences out of context, showing only one little part, and claiming these were my words. No, they werent. I was clearly referring to myself, when I said that : "At least I have the balls, and take your statements to read the Atari development manual more closely, instead of letting you go around bonkers unquestioned.". I never was implying you are misquoted the docs. What I basically meant was, you made me curious to read the developer docs, to actually see if you are right, and perhaps find something interesting on my own. I am the kind of person who likes to explore things for himself, I have done this one many occasions. Perhaps the whole sense of this sentence became obscured, because it got lost in translation. English is not my native language and sometimes, I definately might appear much ruder as I intended. For this, I apologize.

 

3. You are very quick to denounce people as liars, especially considering you yourself are no angel, too. You know as much as I do that we both are people who are passionate about the things they like, and people like us like to have "the last word". Disputes like this always emerge when 2 of the same kind clash into each other. But, although I might have come off as insulting you, for which I apologize, you also overstepped the line multiple times, and you actually tried to attribute lots of things to me, which are simply not true. On the contrary, you tried to say I was trying to come off as an expert in Jaguar coding. No I didn't. That I think you are dumb. I never said you are dumb. But, as myself, you fucking do not know everything. When I do not know something, I try to educate myself, that's the reason I looked into the developer manual, not to be some kind of "police" (what nonsense...). Furthermore, I absolutely need not to show any credentials to you, unless what I said is utterly bullshit, which it wasn't. Anything I said can be verified. And you make it so easy for yourself to doubt anything what is written in multiple developer manuals (considering the PSX), and official definitions of how to define the "bitness" of a system, definitions to which almost every hardware developer is sticking to, but console manufacturers like to stretch a lot due to bullshit marketing. I wouldn't be able to quote those things in the right context if I hadn't any clue what I am talking about. And believe me, I have.

 

So, that being said, fare well and good luck with your projects. That definately ends it for me now.

[Atariman]

Hehe. Things never change around here. You guys really should visit the Lynx forum here at AA sometime. You might learn something. We have such a peacefull atmosphere there.

 

This will change very quickly when someone enters your forum, deeply impressed with his knowledge about the Lynx, stating he is the only one able so far to unleash its power, and everyone who has a different picture of the Lynx is a liar and a fanboi...

 

If I remember correctly, the Jaguar forums have been cutthroat since before this new coding discovery was made. Supposedly the Jaguar fans are ranked right up there with the Neo Geo people.

 

Excuse me, but I must now lock the door and turn off the lights for fear of retaliation from anyone who I inadvertantly offended. *cuddles up close to my Jaguar*

 

[Gorf]

I am tired of this discussion now too. However, I want to clarify some last things:

 

1. Although you want to see it differently, I actually like the way the Jaguar is designed and I can understand that its flexibility has a lot of appeal to die-hard coders. You want to see ma as a Sony fanboy, fine. I tell you, fanboys act differently. Fanboys want to downplay every possible aspect of their "enemy". I don't have an enemy, why should I? I actually see what the Jaguar can do better. Like I said, a software MP3 Player would be next to impossible on the Playstation, because the R3000 lacks the powerful MAC instructions, and the SPU can only play ADPCM compressed samples, which means you would have to recompress it again to play it back, which is not really possible on a 33Mhz R3000. The Z buffer is also a very big plus compared to the Playstation. Almost all early Playstation games have lots of problems with clipping. And yes, although you want to see it differently, I actually never disputed that the Jaguar blitter is flexible. It's just, i can't see how to utilize its flexibility most efficiently, achieving effects which are not possible on the Playstation at a reasonable speed. Perhaps I have to look at it again, and perhaps get a real machine someday to have a little play. Although you want to see me as a noob, I actually have lots of experience in 68k coding, and the RISC instruction set is very well documented in the developer docs, including rules how to pair operations most efficiently, avoiding speed penalties.

 

2. What really pissed me off was when someone quotes my sentences out of context, showing only one little part, and claiming these were my words. No, they werent. I was clearly referring to myself, when I said that : "At least I have the balls, and take your statements to read the Atari development manual more closely, instead of letting you go around bonkers unquestioned.". I never was implying you are misquoted the docs. What I basically meant was, you made me curious to read the developer docs, to actually see if you are right, and perhaps find something interesting on my own. I am the kind of person who likes to explore things for himself, I have done this one many occasions. Perhaps the whole sense of this sentence became obscured, because it got lost in translation. English is not my native language and sometimes, I definately might appear much ruder as I intended. For this, I apologize.

 

3. You are very quick to denounce people as liars, especially considering you yourself are no angel, too. You know as much as I do that we both are people who are passionate about the things they like, and people like us like to have "the last word". Disputes like this always emerge when 2 of the same kind clash into each other. But, although I might have come off as insulting you, for which I apologize, you also overstepped the line multiple times, and you actually tried to attribute lots of things to me, which are simply not true. On the contrary, you tried to say I was trying to come off as an expert in Jaguar coding. No I didn't. That I think you are dumb. I never said you are dumb. But, as myself, you fucking do not know everything. When I do not know something, I try to educate myself, that's the reason I looked into the developer manual, not to be some kind of "police" (what nonsense...). Furthermore, I absolutely need not to show any credentials to you, unless what I said is utterly bullshit, which it wasn't. Anything I said can be verified. And you make it so easy for yourself to doubt anything what is written in multiple developer manuals (considering the PSX), and official definitions of how to define the "bitness" of a system, definitions to which almost every hardware developer is sticking to, but console manufacturers like to stretch a lot due to bullshit marketing. I wouldn't be able to quote those things in the right context if I hadn't any clue what I am talking about. And believe me, I have.

 

So, that being said, fare well and good luck with your projects. That definately ends it for me now.

 

 

If you say so.

[A_Gorilla]

Jeez whats wrong with you people? I just wanted to see how powerful the Jag was compared to PSX and if it could have butted heads with, and here you people come turning into a childish fanboy war! So please, ACT YOUR AGE!

[Gregory DG]

Jeez whats wrong with you people? I just wanted to see how powerful the Jag was compared to PSX and if it could have butted heads with, and here you people come turning into a childish fanboy war! So please, ACT YOUR AGE!

Apparently, you didn't know this debate has been going on for about 14 years... Starting this thread just opened up the can 'o' worms again.

[A_Gorilla]

Jeez whats wrong with you people? I just wanted to see how powerful the Jag was compared to PSX and if it could have butted heads with, and here you people come turning into a childish fanboy war! So please, ACT YOUR AGE!

Apparently, you didn't know this debate has been going on for about 14 years... Starting this thread just opened up the can 'o' worms again.

 

Great...now I wish I never made this stupid thread

Edited June 22, 2007 by A_Gorilla

[+remowilliams]

Great...now I wish I never made this stupid thread

Yes, you obviously didn't read enough Jag forum posts to know better.

[A Sprite]

This reminds me of PS2 vs. Dreamcast.

 

What's more important, texture quality or polygon count?

 

Correct Answer: The rest of the game.

 

Art team's answer: Both! Neither! Bring back Vectors too! Wheee!

 

Programmer's answer: My normal mapping technique allows me to ignore you.

 

Fanboy answer: Mine's bigger.

[Gorf]

This reminds me of PS2 vs. Dreamcast.

 

What's more important, texture quality or polygon count?

 

Correct Answer: The rest of the game.

 

Art team's answer: Both! Neither! Bring back Vectors too! Wheee!

 

Programmer's answer: My normal mapping technique allows me to ignore you.

 

Fanboy answer: Mine's bigger.

 

 

Sorry Sprite...I think you know that was NOT my intention to waste your thread

this way...I just tried to answer your question honestly based on my long standing

experince with the Jaguar. That is obviously not worth anything to some around here.

[CPUWIZ]

Why is this thread 6 pages long, remowilliams answered it in the first response? More importantly, why do I even bother to read anything in this forum anymore, I must be bored, waiting for my 8GB source-code/data drop to download from work.

 

@Gorf: How about a demo that displays not only 6 shadow-casting, environment mapped polygonal cars, but also a race-track? What kind of speed do you think you could pull that off in? 3FPS or 5FPS, faster?

 

Come on guys.

[JagChris]

Why is this thread 6 pages long, remowilliams answered it in the first response? More importantly, why do I even bother to read anything in this forum anymore, I must be bored, waiting for my 8GB source-code/data drop to download from work.

 

@Gorf: How about a demo that displays not only 6 shadow-casting, environment mapped polygonal cars, but also a race-track? What kind of speed do you think you could pull that off in? 3FPS or 5FPS, faster?

 

Come on guys.

 

3dss, Scato and perhaps AO should team up and make a gfx demo with A.I.. Perhaps cars racing each other around one track. Jusust try to go balls out with it.

[CPUWIZ]

Why is this thread 6 pages long, remowilliams answered it in the first response? More importantly, why do I even bother to read anything in this forum anymore, I must be bored, waiting for my 8GB source-code/data drop to download from work.

 

@Gorf: How about a demo that displays not only 6 shadow-casting, environment mapped polygonal cars, but also a race-track? What kind of speed do you think you could pull that off in? 3FPS or 5FPS, faster?

 

Come on guys.

 

3dss, Scato and perhaps AO should team up and make a gfx demo with A.I.. Perhaps cars racing each other around one track. Jusust try to go balls out with it.

 

I would love to see someone pull that off, but I strongly believe it is not possible to do something like R4 or GT2 on the Jag.

 

Sh*t, I wouldn't even believe it, if someone would claim they could pull of Pac-Man World I on the Jag. I got that sucker running at 512x240 @ 30FPS, which most PS1 games opted out of and resorted to 320x240. In "chrome" mode, Pac-Man would even reflect the actual environment he was walking on.

 

* taps on own shoulder *

 

The game sold ~2 million copies worldwide.

 

EDIT: @Vigo: Don't argue with basement fanboy-"programmers" about their system, it's not worth the blood-pressure increase. Just agree that he is right and you are wrong, all will be good.

[JagChris]

Why is this thread 6 pages long, remowilliams answered it in the first response? More importantly, why do I even bother to read anything in this forum anymore,

 

Because you love us! You know you do! Just admit it!

 

It's like an Uncle Kracker song around here...

 

I don't know why I come here

But I know I'll never leave

It's the only place I wanna be

[A Sprite]

This reminds me of PS2 vs. Dreamcast.

 

What's more important, texture quality or polygon count?

 

Correct Answer: The rest of the game.

 

Art team's answer: Both! Neither! Bring back Vectors too! Wheee!

 

Programmer's answer: My normal mapping technique allows me to ignore you.

 

Fanboy answer: Mine's bigger.

 

 

Sorry Sprite...I think you know that was NOT my intention to waste your thread

this way...I just tried to answer your question honestly based on my long standing

experince with the Jaguar. That is obviously not worth anything to some around here.

 

1. This isn't my thread.

 

2. I love your contributions.

 

3. I'm only saying that there is no right answer to the debate...um...why should that stop anyone from debating? Since when did we argue facts?

 

Personally, past a certain point, I prefer good textures to polygon count. You've convinced me that the Jaguar could have competed with the Playstation.

 

Now you just need to prove it to the other kids...

 

If you're still reading this, have you thought about constructing a polygon model outside of a game just to show the Jaguar's theoretical performance? Kind of like the Blue Roses demos of Resident Evil 2's Leon Kennedy for GBA?

 

Hope you stick around.

[Atari_Owl]

3dss, Scato and perhaps AO should team up and make a gfx demo with A.I.. Perhaps cars racing each other around one track. Jusust try to go balls out with it.

 

 

Thank you for the inclusiveness of your comment JagChris.

 

Unfortunately unlikely. Though Gorf and i do talk about the feasibility of working on something sometimes.

 

One difficulty of course is that each has their own projects and understandably wish to put their efforts into these.

I can only hope that mine will eventualy prove to have been worth the wait.

Edited June 22, 2007 by Atari_Owl

[Gorf]

Why is this thread 6 pages long, remowilliams answered it in the first response? More importantly, why do I even bother to read anything in this forum anymore, I must be bored, waiting for my 8GB source-code/data drop to download from work.

 

@Gorf: How about a demo that displays not only 6 shadow-casting, environment mapped polygonal cars, but also a race-track? What kind of speed do you think you could pull that off in? 3FPS or 5FPS, faster?

 

Come on guys.

 

 

First.....where are we going?

 

I simply tried to answer the question.

 

And when did the PS1 ever do all that?(asking honestly as I do not know)

Edited June 22, 2007 by Gorf

[Gorf]

Why is this thread 6 pages long, remowilliams answered it in the first response? More importantly, why do I even bother to read anything in this forum anymore, I must be bored, waiting for my 8GB source-code/data drop to download from work.

 

@Gorf: How about a demo that displays not only 6 shadow-casting, environment mapped polygonal cars, but also a race-track? What kind of speed do you think you could pull that off in? 3FPS or 5FPS, faster?

 

Come on guys.

 

3dss, Scato and perhaps AO should team up and make a gfx demo with A.I.. Perhaps cars racing each other around one track. Jusust try to go balls out with it.

 

I would love to see someone pull that off, but I strongly believe it is not possible to do something like R4 or GT2 on the Jag.

 

Sh*t, I wouldn't even believe it, if someone would claim they could pull of Pac-Man World I on the Jag. I got that sucker running at 512x240 @ 30FPS, which most PS1 games opted out of and resorted to 320x240. In "chrome" mode, Pac-Man would even reflect the actual environment he was walking on.

 

* taps on own shoulder *

 

The game sold ~2 million copies worldwide.

 

EDIT: @Vigo: Don't argue with basement fanboy-"programmers" about their system, it's not worth the blood-pressure increase. Just agree that he is right and you are wrong, all will be good.

 

 

 

Moderators that pick sides? Hmmmm....Well with you Wiz....how come Im not suprised.

Niether your insults nor your snide remarks do little to impress me or to increase your

apperance of intellegence....and yea....why do you bother to come here anyway?

Edited June 22, 2007 by Gorf

[A Sprite]

Everyone.

 

Let's get back on track.

 

Every insult, from every side, just looks ugly in print. Nobody can hear your voice, or see your face. What you say with a smile reads like you're ready to read a mob - we're all autistic in cyberspace.

 

Go back to your ring corners.

 

Take a deep breath.

 

Let's start looking at the evidence.

 

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9626/rx7lm26bj.jpg

 

Neither Gran Turismo uses true environment mapping...

Edited June 22, 2007 by A Sprite

[Gorf]

Everyone.

 

Let's get back on track.

 

Every insult, from every side, just looks ugly in print. Nobody can hear your voice, or see your face. What you say with a smile reads like you're ready to read a mob - we're all autistic in cyberspace.

 

Go back to your ring corners.

 

Take a deep breath.

 

Let's start looking at the evidence.

 

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9626/rx7lm26bj.jpg

 

Neither Gran Turismo uses true environment mapping...

 

 

Right...its done through software trickery...and thats fine too. It's also how we'd pull off some

of what we claim possible on the jaguar. If you look at that pic, ou can see what I mean about

the quality. I should get a cap of HoverStrike CD and put them side by side...no, ther is no

environtment mapping but it still looks crisper than that....it just runs real slow.

Never said otherwise either actually.

[A Sprite]

Actually, that was a dramatically improved emulator screenshot, running in a higher resolution so that the textures could be seen, unfortunately, it also adds texture smoothing.

 

The actual game looks much worse. It has to be seen in motion for it's graphics to be appreciated.

Edited June 22, 2007 by A Sprite

[CPUWIZ]

Moderators that pick sides? Hmmmm....Well with you Wiz....how come Im not suprised.

Niether your insults nor your snide remarks do little to impress me or to increase your

apperance of intellegence....and yea....why do you bother to come here anyway?

 

Pick sides?

 

No, I was trying to tell one member (which I have never talked to), to just chill and agree. It's better for both of you.

 

Now how about that 6 car demo, with reflection map trickery?

[Gorf]

Actually, that was a dramatically improved emulator screenshot, running in a higher resolution so that the textures could be seen, unfortunately, it also adds texture smoothing.

 

The actual game looks much worse. It has to be seen in motion for it's graphics to be appreciated.

 

 

And this being my point the whole time. Jaguar can do that same effect and will probably

do it better, just a heck of a lot slower. No one is saying we'll have 100,000 polies per

frame. I've got to imagine that to get the Playstation to do it in resolution higher than

that would at a serious strain on the PS1. If that was not the case, why did'nt they?

 

Im not suprised it does not look that good either. It looks in the pic that only the car itself

has any environment mapping. With the right trickery and a lower poly model, the Jaguar

could do similar, but again, not at the same frame/poly rate. To me, what good is an effect like

that if its quality is greatly diminished by pixilization? If I were a PS1 fan, I'd have been

happy to see that game look sharper with a few less effects.

 

One day im going to get back to my experiments and redesign the bus of the jaguar

the 68EC020 as the cojag has. Two modes...one like the original jag and a bus switch mode

to a seperate 64/128k bus so the other chips can hog the 64 bit bus and the 020 can do

game logic without interfering. Then of course, a flip of a bit and the 020 can now talk

to the two monsters to pass game logic info from time to time. I think it would drastically

help the crippling caused by the current setup.

[Gorf]

Moderators that pick sides? Hmmmm....Well with you Wiz....how come Im not suprised.

Niether your insults nor your snide remarks do little to impress me or to increase your

apperance of intellegence....and yea....why do you bother to come here anyway?

 

Pick sides?

 

No, I was trying to tell one member (which I have never talked to), to just chill and agree. It's better for both of you.

 

Now how about that 6 car demo, with reflection map trickery?

 

 

Im not ready to admit that Jag will do that with any ease.

I dont believe I ever said so otherwise. I will tell you this though.

 

If only I had the time, you know I'd give it my blood and sweat to try.

 

I'll tell you right now the poly count would be about Club Drive Level but

the frame rate would be at least 24-30. Club Drice is essentially written

mostly in 68k and with a turtle based lib...TURTLE? DOH! Clearly there is plenty

of room left for some muscle....Yes I have studied the sources to Club Drive.

There is MUCH that can be done to seriously improve the look of that game.

the only thing the GPU /DSP are doing is acting like a FANCY GTIA and pokey

unfortunately.

 

This is unfortunately the way most games were written for the litle black cat.

 

Again..my whole point is, ther is more left under the hood....I hope to beable to

prove it.Why? Because Jag fans have been bugging me to since the mid 90's to

do so. I feel somehow the need to satify them and myself as well.

 

Wish me luck!