Barnstorming - Game #1 - 32.04 - What the...?!?!!

[Philflound]

I have to agree that this topic is ridiculous. In 100 years when we're all dead, none of this would have meant anything. And if someone can read this archived thread, they'll probably think you guys are a bunch of dorks.

 

It's not like you could save your record time like on computers where you could put your initials. Even the old arcade machines sucked when it reset if you turned it off.

 

It's a bunch of non-sense. If you play Barnstorming 300 times to get a record time then you have way too much free time on your hands. I can think of many other things to spend that much time on... family, friends, work, church, fund raisers, etc.

 

Get a life.

 

Phil

[ubersaurus]

By that logic it's a waste of time to try and do well in any sport, because its not bettering mankind in any way, shape, or form.

Having a high score on Twin Galaxies' website is effectively saving the score on a computer, for future reference. Whether or not people will be interested is another story, but it is there in case anyone wants to know.

[ToddsGuardian]

Hi,

 

I am the web designer for Todd's Beat The Champ Site, after reading these 5 pages of posts, I felt it was time to step in and say a few words. Please feel free to visit his site @ http://www.beatthechamp.com click on the AtariAge link on the first page.

 

Thanks and I hope you check out my comments on the site.

 

April

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Please let me know which one of the variations your score is 3 more on and I'll pass the word. Cheers !!

It's the score for variation 3 (called Wing Commander) and it's already in the official TG database.

 

I'm sure this is a challenge to Todd and I'm quite sure he will win.

 

BTW: Todd's score for variation 4 (9999) indicates, that he is one of the three persons I know (including me ), who saved all 4 stations in that game and rolled the score (due to a code bug I explained to Ron). I would like to know the stardate of his record, so that we can compare the results.

[TG Ref Mike]

Hi,

 

I am the web designer for Todd's Beat The Champ Site, after reading these 5 pages of posts, I felt it was time to step in and say a few words. Please feel free to visit his site @ http://www.beatthechamp.com click on the AtariAge link on the first page.

 

Thanks and I hope you check out my comments on the site.

 

April

 

April, you are way out of line on this. It is considered very rude internet ettiquette to post a flame piece where it can't be debated directly (so that counter points appear right below it).

 

Nobody here that is a serious gamer has bashed Todd in ANY WAY! PERIOD!!! Every legitimate poster (not counting trolls who show up everywhere) has very carefully explained that they felt that the score was an error, which it certainly has turned out to be. How dare you attack us like that? You obviously did not read the posts very carefully.

 

The moral of the story is: Just because you are a legendary gamer does not make you immune from questions, especially when there is more than reasonable grounds for it. The score listed was a typo, and not Todd's fault. There was simply no excuse for you to attack like that.

 

Here's my

[Atarian7]

Well Phil don't you do anything when you spend time with those people, events?

 

To firebrandx: I got a 32.8 the first hour of playing Barnstorming which I have taped for the timed deca. I might not finish the timed deca but I will send in my barnstorming score to TG eventually. Hopefully I will improve it

[Atarian7]

To april: Most of the 90+ posts here did not insult or bash Todd Rogers. What are you talking about?

[Atarian7]

Ron please respond to this: IN an earlier post you said his performance was on videotape but in a recent post you say that his score came from activision and may have been a typo. Which performance were you saying was on videotape? The 32.04 or the 32.77?

[ROBERT]

Hello all:

 

Three things here. And I am speaking as the chief referee for the Twin Galaxies scoreboard and with the permission of Walter Day himself to do so.

 

1st - We are currently in the process of performing "due dilligence" with respect to the thread subject matter in question. When done, the results wil lbe made known to all.

 

2nd - I read April's posting and I do not find it either inflammatory or bashing in any way.

 

3rd - For all future score challenges, we (Twin Galaxies) actually have an entire documented procedure on this. It is fair and partial to no one, though special allowances are made towards the pinball genre due to the nature of that aspect of gaming. If anyone is interested, I would be happy to share with you what these procedures are.

 

Best wishes and regards,

 

Robert T Mruczek

Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee

Star Wars classic arcade champion

(212) 366-3036 (work-day)

rmruczek@doremus.com (work E-MAIL)

 

******************************

[FirebrandX]

I have to agree with Mike on this one. April's web page was a bit out of line. The majority of people posting here (except for trolls) did not bash Todd and actually reiterated their respect for him. And this tactic of making a web page for bashing people without discussing it with them first seems a little rude.

 

What's with this tyrannical attitude that some gamers are above being questioned on certain scores? If it isn't possible to get the score, then it must be investigated no matter who did it. I said it before and I'll say it again, the database is far more important than any one gamer.

 

Atarian, congrats on the 1-hour 32.80. I guess I just suck, eh?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

2nd - I read April's posting and I do not find it either inflammatory or bashing in any way.

The post was ok, but have you read the article on the page?

 

@April: I don't think that you have read all those "90+" posts in this thread, else you wouldn't have written such (sorry, but I have to say that) complete bullshit in your article. Nobody here on the thread was "bashing" Todd. There where only some questions asked about the Barnstorming record and if it is possible at all. Yes, some posts where a bit drastic and I didn't like all of them, but generalizing the hole thread as a "massive Todd bashing" thread is absolutely unfair. I feel personally attacked, so tell me where was I bashing Todd???

 

I really hope you find the time to reread the whole thread unbiased and maybe change your oppinion.

[Scott Stilphen]

However, even we have certain exceptions. For example, we absolutely will NOT accept a Ms Pacman score without proof on videotape, and make no exceptions as to whom. That's just for starters. There are many, many more...games where the possibility exists of a player continuing, and worse, where the score is not reset to zero, games with "leeching" tactics (i.e. hunting, point-scrabbing)...

 

Well then you can throw out the Asteroids arcade world record b/c in my experience with the game, there's no way to get that score in the amount of time claimed w/o using the UFO hunting technique

 

 

games with known glitches and bugs, games in which entire segments can be ignored due to poor programming, 2nd player leech tactics like Joust and Marble Madness...the list goes on.

 

IMHO, scores on prototype games should not be accepted (some are listed in the book) and I know that Ron agrees. I also think games with known timing issues (ex. Superman, Night Driver) should also be excluded.

[ToddsGuardian]

April, you are way out of line on this. It is considered very rude internet ettiquette to post a flame piece where it can't be debated directly (so that counter points appear right below it).

 

1st) Not only has this forum served as a sounding board (as proof of your post) but Beat The Champ also has a message board to post any feedback, so to try to say that the issue can not continue to debated is false.

 

Nobody here that is a serious gamer has bashed Todd in ANY WAY! PERIOD!!! Every legitimate poster (not counting trolls who show up everywhere) has very carefully explained that they felt that the score was an error, which it certainly has turned out to be. How dare you attack us like that? You obviously did not read the posts very carefully.

 

I did read all of the posts and I never said EVERYONE was bashing Todd. I did say that I think the entire thing got carried away and should have never been permitted to reach the point it did.

 

The moral of the story is: Just because you are a legendary gamer does not make you immune from questions, especially when there is more than reasonable grounds for it. The score listed was a typo, and not Todd's fault. There was simply no excuse for you to attack like that.

 

I agree, nobody should be immune to questions, and if you read my post it simply states that in my opinion the question should have been directed to Todd or TG and handled at that level. Realizing that the score was a typo will at least hopefully start to slow this forum topic down. It does not however, excuse the ones who had judged him without him ever having a chance to say a word.

 

You all must realize a few things, 1) None of my comments posted here represent what Todd thinks, feels or plans to do about this popular topic.

My response to the outragous situation was only after receiving a call from Todd asking me to see what the **** was being said on this forum since it had become the talk of the weekend and he had no access to the site. After the 3rd page of posts I started to feel sick that not only has a group ( and I am not including all ) attacked a very talented player but due to the comments making their way back to the Mall Of America also turned what should have been an enjoyable event for Todd into a nightmare. " prove the score or you are a liar " "Release the tape or you are stuffy ******* "

 

I did report back to Todd that he had his handful of supporters. My point however is, everyone on this board should want and expect the proper respect after working hard to achieve a score. The way this entire situation was handled offered no respect for Todd, Ron ( since he was often lumped in ) or TG. As gamers, when the question about the validy came up TG should have been contacted and Walter could have handled it.

 

April

[FirebrandX]

However, even we have certain exceptions. For example, we absolutely will NOT accept a Ms Pacman score without proof on videotape, and make no exceptions as to whom.

 

This actually needs to be our policy for all games. You have to admit that Barnstorming has become the most hotly contested title on Atari, and it's sensitivity demands strict verification guidelines at this point.

[FirebrandX]

As gamers, when the question about the validy came up TG should have been contacted and Walter could have handled it.

 

April  

 

I'm not going to respond to the rest of that post as you should know by now how wrong you were in what you did. But this part must be addressed. I myself tried this very approach several months ago and was assured the score was legit. When I continued to press the issue and my concerns that it just didn't seem possible, I got a public flogging in front of the other senior refs and Todd. I was made to feel like I had made a terrible error in even questioning the record. So this time around, I used science to help my case instead of just voicing my hunch that it was a typo.

[liquid_sky]

i still dont see the big deal about all this! Ive got an email from Todd before, very cordial, friendly email... and I usualy go by the first impressions of people. So there was a typo, does that mean it was in any way Todds fault? No. Everyone has made mistakes before, dont pretend to think otherwise.. just because there was a small typo dosent mean that hes any less of a gamer.. hell I cant even begin to beat the score that he HAS validated. Arguing over something most of us can never do, be it .04 or .50

 

Given, the responce by his webmaster seemed harsh, but it is human nature to be defensive when you are questioned, and I am assuming that the responce was not meant to be inflamatory to anyone, but the circumstances under which it was written held anger, and some of it seeped out in the writing.

 

Like I said before, noone is perfect, nor do we claim to be.

 

This isnt that big of a deal, its a score, on an old videogame. I am sure that Todd has countless hours of pride derived from his scores, I know when I reach that level I though was impossible, I feel like theres nothing that can stop me, other than an electrical outage. The point of arguing that the game is 20 years old and does not matter is quite futile. There are sports fans on these boards... baseball is more than 20 years old, but it still matters correct?

 

I say, if you cant say anything nice, keep your mouth closed until you can say something nice.

[RCorcoran]

Ron please respond to this:   IN an earlier post you said his performance was on videotape but in a recent post you say that his score came from activision and may have been a typo.    Which performance were you saying was on videotape?  The 32.04 or the 32.77?

 

The 32.77 is on videotape. The 32.04 came directly from Activision. The 32.50 was only witnessed by myself, Brien King and Steve Knox at CGE last year. We didn't take a pic or videotape the performance.

[Albert]

I don't know if we'll have a video camera there or not, but I am going to have this done in full view of the gaming public.  I am also going to ask Albert to come to the booth and watch so you will have a known, trusted, 3rd party perspective.  

 

I will have a videocamera with tripod and will be glad to videotape the event.

 

..Al

[RCorcoran]

Awesome Al. I'll make sure everything is setup and ready for ya.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

So there was a typo, does that mean it was in any way Todds fault? No. Everyone has made mistakes before, dont pretend to think otherwise.. just because there was a small typo dosent mean that hes any less of a gamer.. hell I cant even begin to beat the score that he HAS validated. Arguing over something most of us can never do, be it .04 or .50

I'd never even try to question the integrity of a person which such a huge reputation as Todd's. And I don't think anybody else who knows the story of Todd, did. I don't even know who made that mistake. And having hundreds (thousands?) of records, nobody can really expect that Todd remembers them all exactly and corrects all errors.

 

The only reason why this thread started was, that somebody found one single error in the TG database, which will now be corrected. Hopefully next time when something similar will happen we make it a little bit better.

 

Given, the responce by his webmaster seemed harsh, but it is human nature to be defensive when you are questioned, and I am assuming that the responce was not meant to be inflamatory to anyone, but the circumstances under which it was written held anger, and some of it seeped out in the writing.

That may have been the reason. But the words are still there (yet) and IMO they are the only real "bashing" involved in this whole story.

 

I hope, when the anger is over, April will edit them.

[Albert]

Okay, after reading April's post on Todd's website, I went back and read every single message in this thread. Not a *single* person made derogatory statements about Todd and nobody accused him of cheating. People simply wanted to know how it is possible to get a score of 32.04. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning this feat when no proof has been put forth as to how it was accomplished. Of course now we see that it's likely just a typo on the part of Activision, and what is likely to have been an invalid score will probably be removed from the TG database unless Todd is able to come sufficiently close to this score with witnesses verifying the result.

 

I don't think this thread got out of control, people are entitled to their opinions and very little "bashing" of individuals took place. Nobody questioned the overall integrity of TG's high score database, just this individual record. And certainly no one disparaged Todd, although some did question the desire to keep winning strategies secret (which is going to be an issue in any realm, not just classic gaming). In my opinion, April's response to this entire thread was brash, out of line and unfair.

 

I'm glad to see all the TG referees posting. Their communication and willingness to discuss this issue at length gives me more confidence in Twin Galaxies.

 

..Al

[Jeffy Arensmeyer]

 

Unfortunately, things have in fact gotten ugly here. And for absolutely no good reason.

 

The fact that disturbs me the most is everything has become "he said/she said" with loss of the primary topic. But comments were made in resolving the topic subject that are relevant as well.

 

It's still just a game, with a record that's changed and that's all. I never started this topic to libel anyone and definately not to poison the AtariAge forums.

 

While I do not feel that Ron's resolve of the situation was either apologetic with regards to some of his comments nor done with a "smile on his face", it is very fair and just of TG, which is all that is required or could be asked.

 

It is also generous of TG to have allowed the challenge without requiring the posted Challenge Requirements as listed on their web site. The reason I never even considered a challenge was because I wanted to poll the AtariAge collective about my findings, since this group is the most knowledgable and diverse when it comes to Atari games, programs, and more.

 

There are two primary concerns, for me, that this thread has raised, in this order:

In regards to April's reply, it's unfortunate that this has carried over to the MoA conpetition. The last thing anyone needs when they're trying to compete is questions about something they've never even seen.

 

However, it should be a comfort knowing that the Classic Gaming Community is so closely knit, even if all of our opinions don't agree. All of the lingo tossing, such as trolls (what are these?) and flamers, just adds to the tone of the thread. But as much as I disagree with April's private, off-site link, it's what these very forums are derived from. To scold her for her opinions is as wrong as voicing your own, however ugly her comments were.

 

But to shy away from serious topics with answers that everyone may not agree with shouldn't be deemed ugly or sickening. To sit and post all day about "The grooviest label" or the "Why I love Atari" is fine, but nowhere have I seen these AtariAge forums deemed only for utopian-type posts only. It's fine to be adults playing with toys, but don't say that we can't have serious adult questions that may not have a "huggable" answer that makes everyone feel fuzzy. Debates about prototypes, competitions, proprietary rights are valid and should be able to be discussed. It's sad that name calling occurs, but these subjects are as important to Classic Gaming as the E.T. landfill.

 

My wife and best friend have cautioned me about posting these comments because they don't think the thread can bear them, especially since so many people have stated things have become too aggressive in here. I'm counting on the fact that as much as we all love to play Atari and still have a child inside us somewhere, that we can discuss our ideas and opinions as adults without constantly being offensive and taking offense.

 

ò¿ó            

[FirebrandX]

 

Even when a TG official was allowed space on the web site to voice his ideas, the score remained unverified.

 

In all fairness, I used that space privately without notifying the other referees or admins. I told Ron I would check with him first on such issues next time and I apologized.

[NE146]

 

All of the lingo tossing, such as trolls (what are these?)

 

Here you go Jeffy: http://www.altairiv.demon.co.uk/troll/trollfaq.html

[Lemmi]

At only 5 days old this thread is the 4th most viewed topic on the statistics page

 

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