Jaguar vs. 3DO?

[philipj]

Just noticed someone had pulled an Altered Beast on this topic about a month or two ago (WISE FROM YO GWAVE...!)

 

Looking back at some of these posts...wow...kind of embarrassing, actually. I think I made some good points, but should've just taken more of a high road on some things.

 

And armchair quarterbacking is something I often engage in; it's a fault. I admit it.

 

That said...I still think Atari shouldn't have skipped Panther, and should've held back on Jag for a bit. It didn't make sense, IMHO, to not have product out in '91. Even if Panther wasn't great hardware from a developer's standpoint (and there can be an argument made with regards to more RAM needed, etc.), and even if Sega and Nintendo would've outsold it by plenty (most likely scenario), it would seem Atari was a tiny bit more financially stable in '91 (the year Panther was to be released) so might've been on more solid ground than they were with Jaguar with regards to launching and supporting a console. Also, even if it was lapped in sales by Genesis and SNES, if it came in at an affordable price point (particularly if lower priced than the competition) it would've garnered some sales.

 

...another scenario I've thought of lately as I've gotten back into playing TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games: What if Atari had signed a deal with NEC to handle the PC Engine in the US? Or, better yet, the SuperGrafx (which was released in Japan in '89, the same year that NEC launched the vanilla PC Engine as the TurboGrafx-16 in the US)?

 

Anyway, the reason for my responding and resurrecting this topic:

 

Okay as for Crash and Burn on the 3DO can someone confirm with proof that the background is indeed FMV and not real time?

...I'm so damn certain that Crash and Burn is real time but everyone keeps saying it's FMV.

 

This has been debated since that game was released. I know I stated earlier in the topic (back when the topic was first alive) that it's FMV...but now I'm not so sure. It is pulling off things that 3DO shouldn't really be doing, however, as the draw distance is very good (better than some early PS1 and Saturn games, actually), and it seems the amount of polys onscreen outweigh 3DO's capabilities.

 

But...not really. There is something "funny" going on, but not FMV, according to one of the members of the dev team:

 

 

I probably shouldn't say anything but what the heck. The track is being

pulled off the CD. Originally the entire track was in memory but when the

enemies cars were added the frame rate went all the way down to 5fps. The

solution was to write a tool that would, for each view of the track, remove

all the polygons that are not seen. Since you can move left and right and

up and down (cockpit vs 3rd person) nothing is 'pre-calculated'

 

...

 

 

The entire track is still in memory. The track consists of tons-o-polygons.

Far too many for any machine to display in real-time. On part of displaying

something in 3D is figuring out which parts you can see and which parts you

can't. For example, if you are driving down a race track and you are

looking forward you can't see behind you therefore you don't want to draw

the stuff behind you on the screen. So, you do some math to tell you what

parts of your 3D world you can actually see. This takes alot of time. In

fact it is probably this single biggest problem with anything that works in

3D. All programs deal with this in different ways. Flight Simulator does

it while it's running. It keeps a list of all the things you can see and as

you fly around it adds or removes things. To see it in action, fly in skew

mode and skew really fast and then stop. You will see different 3D parts

pop in one at a time as the program finds new things that are now in your

view.

On CnB we wrote a program that would 'drive' down the track and for each

section of the track it makes a list of all the parts that can actually be

seen. These 'lists of visible parts' are then stored in the CD and as you

drive down the track the 'list' for the part of the track you are currently

on is loaded. This makes it run faster because we don't have to do all the

calculations for which things are visible while you are racing.

 

 

Source: http://tinyurl.com/853ane3

 

Maybe what accounts for that strange "feeling" I get when playing the game that I'm playing FMV isn't that it is FMV, but rather the program they're using in conjunction with the apparently 24fps framerate. It isn't the graphics, per se, but the motion of the whole thing, especially when the track turns and parts of the track I've passed come into view further away. The way they scroll into site seems very...movie like. It just feels very different than how Virtua Racer 32x; Checkered Flag Jaguar; Daytona USA Saturn; Ridge Racer PS1; and Crusin' USA N64 did on their respective consoles.

 

Great post... Thanks for the link.

 

It's basically constantly loading elements off the CD as you are playing. Scorcher on the Sega Saturn does this as well, constantly, probably a reason why it rivals most PlayStation 3D games despite that system being technically superior to the Saturn in that regard.

 

Those guys who did "Scorcher" were just phenomenal pulling the kind of graphics that they did for the Sega Genesis and the 32X demo... They come straight out of the Amiga demo-scene and it showed.

 

Quotes from Next Generation issue 12 Dec 1995

 

"in a similar way to the Atari Lynx, organize the graphics into "animation cells." These cells are full color. high-rez images capable if being moved, scaled, rotated, warped, texture-mapped, and light-sourced with the aid of 3DO Cinematic Software Tools. The cell engines draw the image, leaving the CPU free to concentrate on calculating position (with aid of a math coprocessor) resuling in very fast realtime polygon generation - for the time anyway."

 

"But probably the 3DO's strongest feature is its Direct Memory Access engine, which enables it to shift large chunks of data around within its three megabytes of memory without using the CPU."

 

I really need to take more time to get to know the 3DO better... That's some good info... Thanks for posting.

[Austin]

Those guys who did "Scorcher" were just phenomenal pulling the kind of graphics that they did for the Sega Genesis and the 32X demo... They come straight out of the Amiga demo-scene and it showed.

 

Yep! Their games were some of the most technically impressive of the 16 and 32-bit generations. It's a shame that their games weren't more well-regarded, but it's great to see that some of those guys were eventually able to score big with the Hitman series.

[sd32]

I always found interesting that games like Star Fighter and The Need for Speed on 3DO, featured better draw distance than the Playstation and Saturn ports, albeit at a lower frame rate. Would be interesting what 3DO hardware quirks made the developers choose the longar draw distance over a smooter framerate. In some cases like Total Eclipse, 3DO had better texturemapping than the PS1 version. 3DO, if i recall correctly, usually beat Saturn in texture mapping quality on games that appeared on both systems.

On the other hand i found it really disapointing, that the 3DO couldnt deliver the parallax scrolling on Super SF2 Turbo that even the 16 bit ports had, and that SSF2T and Samurai Spirits ran at a lower framerate than the 16 bit ports. Am i the only person in the world that is really annoyed by 3DO Samurai Showdowns frame rate?

[spiffyone]

I always found interesting that games like Star Fighter and The Need for Speed on 3DO, featured better draw distance than the Playstation and Saturn ports, albeit at a lower frame rate. Would be interesting what 3DO hardware quirks made the developers choose the longar draw distance over a smooter framerate. In some cases like Total Eclipse, 3DO had better texturemapping than the PS1 version. 3DO, if i recall correctly, usually beat Saturn in texture mapping quality on games that appeared on both systems.

 

I wonder how much of that was technical issues with regards to porting 3DO code over (even though it was all in C, as all 3DO games had to be, surely the differences in hardware had a negative effect on things), and how much of it had to do with the old switcheroo done to make the company's own hardware look better in comparison (similar to how Coleco and Mattel crippled versions of their games that appeared on the competition's systems).

 

On Need for Speed, though, I have to point out that some 3DO stalwarts state that the PS1 and Saturn versions, while running smoother/faster and with more features (more cars, more tracks) also have a less accurate driving model as they err more towards an arcade racing game than the racing simulation of the original design. However, I don't think the change was due to technical factors as much as market factors (honestly, back then, arcade racers were more fun and approachable to a wider audience, and even now that holds true). Still, it does make the 3DO version not exactly the same as the later versions.

 

On the other hand i found it really disapointing, that the 3DO couldnt deliver the parallax scrolling on Super SF2 Turbo that even the 16 bit ports had, and that SSF2T and Samurai Spirits ran at a lower framerate than the 16 bit ports. Am i the only person in the world that is really annoyed by 3DO Samurai Showdowns frame rate?

 

Actually, there's no 16-bit port of Super Turbo. Only vanilla Super (without the Turbo option and the Super meters).

 

As for Samurai Shodown, while it ran somewhat slower than the 16-bit versions, part of that was likely due to streaming info off of the CD. Also, the SNES and Genesis versions, to my recollection, don't have the sprite scaling/zooming feature found in the NEO GEO and 3DO versions, so those versions have the benefit of not having to deal with larger sprite sets. Oh, and the animation is also a bit more cut down in the SNES and Genesis versions (and, iirc, Genesis had slightly more animations per frame than SNES).

 

I'm guessing that the smaller sprite sizes and probably more cut down animation on SNES and Genesis also helped them in that regard against 3DO with the Street Fighter titles (negating the fact that the former two had vanilla Super while the latter had Super Turbo). Would've liked to have seen a 3DO version of Alpha or Alpha 2 though. Even SNES got a port of the latter.

[philipj]

I always found interesting that games like Star Fighter and The Need for Speed on 3DO, featured better draw distance than the Playstation and Saturn ports, albeit at a lower frame rate. Would be interesting what 3DO hardware quirks made the developers choose the longar draw distance over a smooter framerate. In some cases like Total Eclipse, 3DO had better texturemapping than the PS1 version. 3DO, if i recall correctly, usually beat Saturn in texture mapping quality on games that appeared on both systems.

On the other hand i found it really disapointing, that the 3DO couldnt deliver the parallax scrolling on Super SF2 Turbo that even the 16 bit ports had, and that SSF2T and Samurai Spirits ran at a lower framerate than the 16 bit ports. Am i the only person in the world that is really annoyed by 3DO Samurai Showdowns frame rate?

 

It's my understanding that "Starfighter" was originally made for the "Acorn computer" which featured arms processors similar to what the 3DO was packing... I can only imagine that all they had to do was to just port it over from the Acorn to the 3DO which was more sophisticated than the Acorn with better texturemapping. The Saturn version was just pityful.

 

Starfighter on the Acorn 7000

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8yLRZExpJM

 

Starfighter on the Sega Saturn

 

Starfighter on the 3DO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNEHw1zC_TY

Edited May 8, 2012 by philipj

[Austin]

On the other hand i found it really disapointing, that the 3DO couldnt deliver the parallax scrolling on Super SF2 Turbo that even the 16 bit ports had, and that SSF2T and Samurai Spirits ran at a lower framerate than the 16 bit ports. Am i the only person in the world that is really annoyed by 3DO Samurai Showdowns frame rate?

 

SSF2T ran at full speed, no frame drops or anything. I hear you on the lack of background layers though. That was the only part that disappointed me about that version. Otherwise, an excellent port.

 

Samurai Shodown though, you are right. It's got a lot of frameskipping going on that makes it tough on the eyes IMO. It still plays well, but it's not silky smooth like the Neo Geo original.

[sd32]

Was there any technical limitation on 3DO, behind the lack of background layers on SSF2T?. Its not really a big deal, the game is great as it is, but i find it interesting.

[mtshark7]

Wasn't the 3DO the first console to use a cooling fan? I also liked how the console reset each time opened and closed the cd tray with a new game...not sure if it did that all the time tho...I think games with multiple disc's were the exception.

[spiffyone]

Was there any technical limitation on 3DO, behind the lack of background layers on SSF2T?. Its not really a big deal, the game is great as it is, but i find it interesting.

 

Probably a RAM limitation in conjunction with possible bus contention related issues. But most likely a simple matter of RAM. A lot of the higher quality 2D fighting ports on Saturn needed an extra RAM cart to be as close to arcade perfect as possible.

[philipj]

Was there any technical limitation on 3DO, behind the lack of background layers on SSF2T?. Its not really a big deal, the game is great as it is, but i find it interesting.

 

Probably a RAM limitation in conjunction with possible bus contention related issues. But most likely a simple matter of RAM. A lot of the higher quality 2D fighting ports on Saturn needed an extra RAM cart to be as close to arcade perfect as possible.

 

Possibly... They say Samuri Shodown for the 3DO lacks quality, but the 3DO had more RAM then the Neo Geo plus the 3DO cpu was considered a 68020 equivalent only faster because of it's RISC nature. I think they held back to keep people pumping quarters in the arcade machines.

[twoquickcapri]

The Neo Geo was a ROM monster. It would steam data straight off of the ROM so it didn't need a lot of ram. When SNK made the Neo Geo CD they added 7 megs of ram to make up for the lack of ROM. The Saturn needed a 1 meg ram cart to play Neo Geo games.

[Gunstar]

There was a recent poll on the 3DO Zero forums asking, "3DO, Jaguar, or both?". The majority picked "both", as both systems libraries complement one-another very well and make up for each's shortcomings in game selection.

 

Back in '96 when it was clear the Jaguar and 3DO were market failures and finished, I had just the Jaguar, and I quickly went out and bought a 3DO to complement my Jaguar as I knew it had a lot of games on it that were supposed to come out on the Jaguar. Though if I have to choose (and have in the past) the 3DO goes before the Jaguar, but I definately feel they belong side-by-side and complement each other very well.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Gunstar

[evilevoix]

I did the same, I purchased a Brand new Jag for $50 and a used 3DO for $50. Both systems were god but I prefered the Jag. Lot of bad games on the 3DO and I believe I purchased them all. I did like Alone in the Dark but never got very far.

[Gunstar]

I did the same, I purchased a Brand new Jag for $50 and a used 3DO for $50. Both systems were god but I prefered the Jag. Lot of bad games on the 3DO and I believe I purchased them all. I did like Alone in the Dark but never got very far.

 

The same thing sometimes turns people off of the Jaguar, they manage to make their first few game choices with the Jag's worst games.

 

So do you still have a 3DO and now know which are the good games?

My first 3DO was bought used too, I don't recall for sure, but somewhere between $50-100. The Jaguar i bought in early '95 and payed full price at the time, which was either $200 or $250 at the time.

 

Luckily all the first dozen games I got with it were top-notch, with the exception of Checkered Flag, so my first perception of the Jaguar still recieved an A.

 

My 3DO experience was similiar, but I had all those gamer mags for reviews of Jaguar games, and they also had 3DO reviews in them, so I did my research to get the best of the best to start.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Gunstar

[evilevoix]

For the 3DO I had alone in the dark, brain dead 13, some taxi game, out of this world, way of the warrior which I liked soley for white zombie.

 

 

The jag I had power drive rally, rayman, chekerd flag which I was good at, cybermorph, trever mcfur, Dino dudes, and then the cd unit with the pack in games. I loved power drive rally, that and rayman made me love the jag.

[twoquickcapri]

some taxi game,

 

Quarantine ???

[Austin]

some taxi game,

 

Quarantine ???

 

Yeah, I think that's effectively the only taxi game on the 3DO.

[Willard]

i think without a doubt the 3DO came closer to shaping the future of gaming with more devs focusing on realistic or high production-value titles. The Jaguar seemed to lean toward arcade-y and more imaginitive games. Not a huge surprise considering Atari funded and published 95% of the Jaguar games and couldn't afford the high budgets that other studios invested (note Crystal Dynamics and many other devs lost tons of money on their investment in the 3DO).

 

For the same reason I think the Jaguar is more interesting (for me) today to revisit because the bulk of the 3DO games were either terrible or feature gamplay elements that were later greatly improved upon. I own both a 3DO and Jaguar and have a handful of games I like to play on each though.

[evilevoix]

some taxi game,

 

Indeed it was liked it.

 

Quarantine ???

[+Stephen]

We all know you only have the 3DO for Night Trap

[Chilly Willy]

We all know you only have the 3DO for Night Trap

 

I got the 32X version of Night Trap... for $5 back when stores were dumping everything SEGA not to do with the Saturn.

[Gunstar]

I've never played Night Trap, or Plumbers Don't Wear Neck-Ties, I always heard that they both really suck (no sexual pun intended), and I just never cared if the Differ'nt Strokes girl was in it or not. I've even seen images of it online but didn't care enough to want to waste a CDR on, or even waste the time to download for that matter (and I've got a speedy connect, probably 1 min. to download).

[Gunstar]

Personally, I think we should completely stop the Jag vs. 3DO stuff, becuase they do compliment each other so well. Lets just start Jag&3DO threads and talk about the best of both, compare if applicable (games alone with no reference to system, regardless of system), and how much fun it was to play AvP on the Jag and then Space Hulk or Killing Time on the 3DO in the same night. How great a night of Iron Soldier 2 and Star Fighter just hits the spot. How I can't get enough Need for Speed or World Tour Racing.

 

Both are great systems that failed in the market and lives cut short, potentials left untapped, the 3DO getting to stretch it's wings a bit more with better and more development, but both still lacking, mainly in the areas the other does not.

 

The fact for me is, I had to sell off some (well most) of my collection last winter while unemployed and I only recent recovered the Jaguar, but everytime I play it now, I'm missing the 3DO. Vintage gaming nights for me always included both and switching playing games between the two all night. I need to get my 3DO back in it's spot next to the Jag.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Gunstar

[Austin]

Night Trap has a fun gameplay concept ruined by awful FMV clips. The same goes for Double Switch, as it's basically the same kind of game--although the story was a little more tolerable in that one. I think if the gameplay concept was revisited with some tweaks, and perhaps wrapped in a small, tight arcade-style package, it would work well without the FMV and story elements.

 

**edit: Actually, now that I think of it, it could make for an interesting homebrew on the Jag. Make it play from a simple top-down perspective, sprite-based. Have eight rooms or so with designated "hot zones" like in Night Trap/Double Switch, and have a constant stream of enemies coming in at random. Instead of "trapping" enemies, have them explode in different ways or something to make things more interesting. No story segments, just random enemies popping in. Maybe have a health bar that depletes if you miss an enemy. The number keypad could be used to switch between rooms, and the action could constantly get faster until the player gets a game over. Make it point based so you can try to best an old score. I've got a great concept on what could be used for the characters, but it would probably offend a handful of people.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Austin

[+Gemintronic]

I bought the 3DO for one game: AD&D Slayer. Endless dungeon hacking? Who wouldn't! Apparently, I wouldn't. I kept on detaching and reattaching cables to hook my Jag back up and play another few hours of Club Drive.

 

Atari had gameplay. 3DO had plumbers without ties.