Faicuai Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) Wasn't the 6502 base design 'borrowed' from the Motorola 6500?Ding, ding, ding! Bingo! We've got a winner, here! Chuck (and several members of his team) are all ex-Moto. renegades!!! They all shared a similar mindset to Woz. and other entrepreneurs of the time: they believed in simplicity and functionality. In fact, they got sued by Moto. because of the know-how they took and the eventual creation of the 6502... But Moto. knew all along that they had the WRONG leadership in place for their semiconductors unit, as they admitted it later... Edited November 1, 2018 by Faicuai 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoestring Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Wasn't the 6502 base design 'borrowed' from the Motorola 6500? I think you mean the 6800 ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Yes I typoed and didn't notice until I'd run out of time to edit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ute Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Well, by that standard, the Victor 9000 / Sirius-1 beats the *sh_t* out of your Amiga, considering the time of its introduction and raw capabilities... and it is not in that list, either. Am I upset for that? Not really! I actuallly believe that the Xerox system SHOULD be at the very top of the list, and for decades more to come!... but it is not... After all, EVERTYTHING we know and see today about graphical computing actually comes from there! :-) Sounds like you agree, the list is SH*T! Just because we don't like the results, or simply don't want to accept the underlying driver / criteria of the selection, does NOT invalidate the list. Just because someone authored a list on a website, does NOT validate the list. If that's the criteria for being legit, I'll start a blog. That list is not about the raw / anbsolute capabilities of the equipment... but rather their design philosophy, their time and place in history, and the amount of innovation they brought at their time of introduction. If you're talking about the list and design philosophy, innovation, etc. then the APPLE 2 shouldn't be on the list at all. And neither should the abomination masquerading as a computer, called 'Mac' either. I'm not crapping on all Apple products - I really like my iPad, great battery life even after 7 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ute Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) Not to mention the audacity of leaving the Apple II ENTIRELY OUT (!) In other words, leaving the starting point of a personal-computing as a "packaged and finished" product *completely out*, while actually being the MOST iconic 8-bit machine in history (!!!) "Just because we don't like the results, or simply don't want to accept the underlying driver / criteria of the selection, does NOT invalidate the list." - Faicuai. Edited November 1, 2018 by Ute 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) depends on the list... and how it was created now doesn't it? the validity of the lists were determined by fact finding using the best tools at our disposal at this time... ***This how we know which is a real list and which is a wish list... *** *edit* (Inaccuracy in my earlier post 6800 should have been MC6800) just seems like it mattered somehow, probably not... Edited November 1, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Why isn't the Psion Organiser on any of these lists? It's the first PDA, without it there would be no iPhones or iPads We wouldn't now be in a 'post PC' society :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) "Just because we don't like the results, or simply don't want to accept the underlying driver / criteria of the selection, does NOT invalidate the list." - Faicuai. It won't work, buddy! I never described it in your colorful terms, though. That continues to be your own / personal issue, it seems. But you can go ahead and write your own B-Log profusely ranting about how the Apple-II should have never been in the top 25 PCs ever built, as well as out of the most "iconic" list... I would like to see how that one goes.... And don't worry, I will not call it sh_t in public, if that is what's stopping you.... Edited November 1, 2018 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ute Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 It won't work, buddy! I never described it in your colorful terms, though. That continues to be your own / personal issue, it seems. But you can go ahead and write your own B-Log profusely ranting about how the Apple-II should have never been in the top 25 PCs ever built, as well as out of the most "iconic" list... I would like to see how that one goes.... And don't worry, I will not call it sh_t in public, if that is what's stopping you.... Sorry for the B-Language I'll clean it up. I'm not saying the Apple 2 is not Iconic. It most certainly is a very, very Iconic part of 8 bit history. And if the list was about being Iconic Apple 2 would be near the top of the list for sure. But the title of the article was 'The 25 Greatest PCs of All Time', which would imply to myself, everything including power, performance, innovation, etc. For which the C64 would certainly be included near the top of the list, and the Apple 2 would fall more around the middle to bottom'ish. And of course Atari at the top. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) as was stated before... That's like saying the greatest car of all time was a Yugo.... some where near the top would then be Le Car... the bread bin is no where near the top as a PC in some respects a step down even.... I think maybe folks need to read things a few times to gain some semblance of understanding what is presented and why. Edited November 1, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ute Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 depends on the list... and how it was created now doesn't it? the validity of the lists were determined by fact finding using the best tools at our disposal at this time... ***This how we know which is a real list and which is a wish list... *** What facts are you talking about? These are opinion based lists, and this is an opinion based thread. There are no facts the scientifically prove what PC was the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ute Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 as was stated before... That's like saying the greatest car of all time was a Yugo.... some where near the top would then be Le Car... the bread bin is no where near the top as a PC in some respects a step down even.... I think maybe folks need to read things a few times to gain some semblance of understanding what is presented and why. Ha he he, the bread bin. Nice. All you really said above is: People who disagree with me, keep reading until you agree with me, otherwise you don't really understand what your reading. It's all an opinion no matter how many times you want to read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 you need to go back and read the information provided through out and the criteria involved.. if all you go on is opinion.. and everything in your mind is opinion or social construct.. reality comes crashing down. But hey opinions are like *ss holes.... everyone has one... and they all stink.. just skip over provable information and examples. it's all opinion. classic. why bother posting at all if that's how you see it. When the facts don't back you up... just re brand them as opinions.. that makes them all go away. why don't you read the supporting information? Probably too much work. Or since you view everything as an opinion, you can just discount it. Let's take one post, don't look at supporting posts, or move towards considering it as setting context. Ignore everything before it and start fresh there.. as if nothing else matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) the Calculator is the best personal computer of all time. It does nothing but computation. Since the Atari has always won the classic battle, and is inextricably woven into so many things that followed as well as so many of their ideas and employees going on using that foundation for so many of the machines based on what was learned, or dreamed up there with most of them ending up on all these lists, surely that means nothing. So the best top quality hamburger on the planet is like a white castle burger or mcdonalds burger or something to you. You never had one better. Who cares if it's fillers and horse meat or whatever they've used over time. They sold lots of them.. they are the tastiest bestest ever.... nothing ever did better... The least you could have done was read the thread and followed the context involved. So if I repeat 1+1=2 2+2 =4 or fish. Since it gets repeated it becomes some how less credible? That debate technique is old and useless. Clearly repeating 1+1=2 or 2+2=4 doesn't make either less credible... In an effort to help you in some way I will concede the whole 1 person + 1 person can = many more argument and all that silliness you will try... possibly in an effort to say I didn't provide context for the example. I might be giving you too much credit though... oh wait, snap.... you think this is the list debate thread.... I get it! now read the thread title... sort it out, I have faith of a mustard seed in you! Edited November 2, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 The simple fact to me is that the Atari 8-bit line is at the top of my list in every single category, and I really don't give a flip what the rest of world thinks about it and other computers. As Nolan Bushnell himself once said; "I mistrust consensus, because, as a general rule, most stupid people like to agree with a majority." 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I'd love to play the games on the machines but I've got my fingers in my ears and had to borrow someone to type this because of all the arguing over non changeable history.. If The Doctor is Doc Brown then feed that flux capacitor and change history Seriously guys, its like arguing over who won the lottery and why they should not have won and you should have, its fun for a bit, then gets a bit pointless and then the arguing starts yet at the end of the day its done and set in stone as it were..The people spoke back then either rightly or wrongly, who knows for sure... Hey, that's not MY finger in me ear!!!!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 You only talked about doing 60FPS video originally, no other implications were stated... The same is true for the C64, the cartridge does the donkey work of chunking data around at speed so the standard I/O isn't in use after starting up (the boot program could be loaded from tape if needed, it'd be tiny and a good fastloader'll get that done in no time) and in both cases it doesn't work if you take the extra hardware in the cartridge away. The Atari player seems to be doing (assuming a cursory, headache-impaired search found the right variant) is presenting the ANTIC with data for it's DMA directly from the cartridge where the C64 code I was talking about just "loads" data into the RAM where the VIC-II is looking for it. Doing sampled audio at the same time is more tricky since that data transfer is intrusive on the C64 - the DMA halts the 6510 whilst working whilst the VIC-II "multitasks" and carries on regardless - so restarting the processor every X cycles to play a nybble of sample the "traditional" way is probably not viable with 60FPS playback. From what the devs say about the sample driver in Fantasmolytic (fast forward to 6:22) it'd be at least potentially doable that way I think...? If "stock" includes a whacking great IDE interface plugged into the cartridge port, then you're working with a very odd definition of the term there... but s'okay because a whacking great RAM expansion plugged into the C64 cartridge port counts as "stock" under that definition too. =-) I noticed the other day that you can kick the 6510 off the bus from the cartridge port so there's an interesting potential to just turn it into a zombie shell of a C64 with the custom chips driven by whatever you want on the cartridge. Sort of like a SNES SuperFX cartridge on steroids. Part of me wants to wire up a FPGA board to a connector to try that out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) What facts are you talking about? These are opinion based lists, and this is an opinion based thread. There are no facts the scientifically prove what PC was the best. Look no further, but at the present work and talent leveraging (in turn) past work at talent: Avery's 60fps Video Player, which is more of a brute-force, or "Tour-de-force" FACTUAL accomplishment that provides a sort of "figure of merit" of the platform's ARCHITECTURE (Atari), dating 1979! By that account, being able to display 60fps video with NATIVE HW (As low as Colleen / 32 Kbytes) other than large-scale storage (mechanical or solid state), is absolutely MASSIVE !!! On this account alone, ANY modern-time "public-opinion" editor (aware of such feat and its significance), would easily catapult the Abit family into the top three spots of ANY review, anywhere, any time! Edited November 2, 2018 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I'd love to play the games on the machines but I've got my fingers in my ears and had to borrow someone to type this because of all the arguing over non changeable history.. If The Doctor is Doc Brown then feed that flux capacitor and change history Seriously guys, its like arguing over who won the lottery and why they should not have won and you should have, its fun for a bit, then gets a bit pointless and then the arguing starts yet at the end of the day its done and set in stone as it were..The people spoke back then either rightly or wrongly, who knows for sure... Hey, that's not MY finger in me ear!!!!!! I think I'm getting the hang of this forum, there always needs to be a thread where everyone is arguing and shouting at each other, it keeps the bile from spilling into the other more civil threads. Without a good troll post all the other threads get quite snarky. We're basically a bunch of old men shouting at clouds so we don't keep shouting at the neighbours. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I think I'm getting the hang of this forum, there always needs to be a thread where everyone is arguing and shouting at each other, it keeps the bile from spilling into the other more civil threads. Without a good troll post all the other threads get quite snarky. We're basically a bunch of old men shouting at clouds so we don't keep shouting at the neighbours. Get off my lawn! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) If I see his dog fouling my lawn I'm shooting it!! The dog, not the lawn......Then again, I'll shoot both, just to be sure... Edited November 2, 2018 by Mclaneinc 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Me submitted 2 demos to Silly Venture and delivered a part in our X2018 demo... Ah yes... i Stick to talk less code more in 2018 Yeah... probably should've stuck to that matra myself really, after letting myself be sidetracked by this thread and then falling ill again I'm nowhere near done for X... =-( I'm feeling a bit better today and want to try putting a little more work in over the weekend, but there's no major rush so I'm perhaps aiming for Compusphere since they take remote entries and the deadline is the 26th. So I should probably take your advice and make myself scarce... I noticed the other day that you can kick the 6510 off the bus from the cartridge port so there's an interesting potential to just turn it into a zombie shell of a C64 with the custom chips driven by whatever you want on the cartridge. Sort of like a SNES SuperFX cartridge on steroids. Part of me wants to wire up a FPGA board to a connector to try that out.... Kicking the 6510 off the bus is how the SuperCPU, CP/M cartridge, Turbo Chameleon and others work yeah, and the TC is already FPGA-based, with an Altera Cyclone 3 onboard. The default core takes over some of the C64's functions (that's how it gets a faster CPU clock without goofing up the VIC-II, they aren't using the same clock) and the results are funnleled back to the host machine whilst a copy is pushed out via VGA. There's even an audio jack on the side, I'm hoping someone adds OPL support alongside the second SID option, but they always seem busy and I don't want to be a nuisance. The TC has also got spaces available for loading other cores so, along with the option of writing your own for whatever nefarious purposes you have in mind, there's already a version of the MiniMig available along with other 8-bit systems including the Spectrum, MSX, PC Engine, Atari 2600 and Atari 8-bit, sadly without SIDE support at least right now... it'll be more than a little ironic if that goes in though, having a "stock" C64 running Avery's code... =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 How hard can it be to hang an IDE controller off the C64's bus? That's all that's required for an even playing field: nothing more. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) How hard can it be to hang an IDE controller off the C64's bus? That's all that's required for an even playing field: nothing more. If objectively sticking to such elemental and irreductible premise, it would be much easier to say, with valor and maturity, that "it can't be done with C64 on-board resources, you need a new computer for that." But I guess the broken hearts would be far TOO many (and the intrinsic "pain" unbearable, to say the least)... Edited November 2, 2018 by Faicuai 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) well as evidenced by the post they think letting an outside computer run and do all the work as well as run code and ever so lightly touching the internals would be acceptable... by that notion hooking anything up to the sio port and letting it remotely control a modern day super computer via tty (terminal) makes the Atari or any PC a winner. I mean back when my kid was in diapers when I used my Atari to control my satellite receivers and launch music on my server... I suppose launching any modern video player would be good enough. You really wouldn't need another computer jammed into the bus to do that and would leave the Atari to still play whatever games you wanted. The Media center or other PC just keeps going till you send the next request. Bottom line they can't do it without additional Turbo, Super this or that add-ons that don't work with numbers of stock machines anyway... If they manage to get something to work on just one they will try to claim victory over all. Who cares if it's not practical like on an Atari... who cares if the machine itself does all the heavy lifting as is the case on the Atari... seems after all of this it wouldn't be a rational discussion or evaluation of the machines abilities but some sort of contorted and tortured way to justify having something else handle almost all of it and somehow perpetuate the farce that the 64 is capable of it. Edited November 2, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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