classic battle atari 8bit vs commodore 64

[Wrathchild]

Looking at the C64 cart bus specs then an UNO/AVG cart would seem like a quick port. Perhaps Tmp has already tried something out?

[kiwilove]

Back in the day - I would have thought that the cautious buyer would have gone for the computer - for it's intended use.

That the computer you bought - would have it's strengths for that particular area or areas you wanted covered.

The Apple II being education and applications.

The Atari 400/800 line being focused on arcade games of the early 80s' era - hardware sprites and scrolling.

 

The C-64 learning from the above and therefore covered those areas competently. I haven't read about the designers of the C-64 - about why they significantly improved upon the Vic-20. To me the Vic-20 always fell short on it's specs - but you could say that the Vic-20 sales funded the C-64 development and represented the stepping stone from it's earlier Pet computers to the C-64 series.

 

Those who could not afford a full priced computer - the Spectrum buyers - simply had to put up with what they got.

 

No one foresaw of an impeding computer price war - which the C-64 brought on. That one year? after it's introduction - it's price would come down to an affordable level - making home computing a new mass hobby of the 80s'. Atari had no choice but to follow suit - hence the XL and XE line.

It failed to capitalise on it's early head start with the 400/800 lineup - which was aimed at the Apple II competition. Which we should all agree - it did win on that front - in terms of it's hardware design but failed in delivering the quantity and quality in applications and educational software?

 

What wasn't foreseen was the birth of the hobbyist programmers (and other support people - graphics and music) - and what they would get up to? How some games players would become games developers - but that should not have been any surprise - if you look at other enthusiastic hobbyists in their different fields - so why wouldn't home computers follow that trend also?

 

Harvey

[kiwilove]

That super boink demo came out from the UK - after all the other Park demos.

 

Could someone refresh our memory on who did this one - and what other stuff he worked on?

 

Harvey

[kiwilove]

Finally did remember the name - Bob Armour.

 

Looked up this info...

 

http://gameon.freeforums.net/thread/143/bob-armour-gold

 

Harvey

[carlsson]

I haven't read about the designers of the C-64 - about why they significantly improved upon the Vic-20. To me the Vic-20 always fell short on it's specs - but you could say that the Vic-20 sales funded the C-64 development and represented the stepping stone from it's earlier Pet computers to the C-64 series.

 

In case you want to know a little of the story behind the VIC-20 (though I strongly doubt the people in this thread are interested), it roughly goes something like this:

 

Engineers at Commodore were developing a video chip meant to be sold to arcade game manufacturers in the late 1970's. This was the VIC-I chip with its existing capacities regarding video and sound. It is a little unclear to me when this chip was good enough to be considered to be sold, but perhaps 1978-ish, which should co-incide with things like the GI STIC in the Intellivision, the TI VDP in the TI-99/4 and of course the Atari hardware which you all know by heart. Not to mention existing arcade game manufacturers of course.

 

Commodore failed to sell this chip to any arcade game manufacturer. Actually there is 1 Space Invaders game in MAME that uses this class of hardware, but I don't know if it was made before or after the VIC-20. Probably it wasn't powerful enough even for the late 1970's arcade games, or Commodore didn't have the right connections in the games industry.

 

Anyway, it was proposed that Commodore should make a home computer, and two teams of engineers rushed forward to make prototypes. One was the Color PET, one was The Other Intellect (TOI). Jack Tramiel liked one better than the other, the one that was built upon the not yet released VIC-I chip. The plans were to improve this chip to a 40 column resolution before releasing the home computer, but since it was designed around static RAM, it was expensive to get fast enough SRAM to support a 40 column version of the chip. Feeding the ~22 column version could be done with slower RAM, which was exactly what Commodore had at hand, plenty of leftover 2114 RAM chips which hold 0.5 kilobyte each. Thus it was decided they would use up all those spare chips and in order to keep the price down, the amount of memory became 5.5K in each computer.

 

The VIC-1001 was released in Japan in October 1980 and the VIC-20 launched in the US in March 1981, though it appears to have taken until the summer to really find any computers to buy. What Commodore had forgotten was that in Europe we use PAL, so they had to quickly redesign the VIC-I chip in a PAL version and it was introduced here around Oct-Nov 1981, with the majority of computers not available until Jan 1982.

 

In the mean time, some engineers kept working on the 40 column version of the VIC-I chip, while another set of engineers started designing a new chip using dynamic RAM which was cheaper. This was the beginning of the VIC-II chip, and as it turned out to have more potential and become cheaper than an improved version of the VIC-I chip, Commodore shifted focus to the new chip. Of course we're talking 1981 by now, at a point where most of the competitors already had shown their "cards" and Commodore could get inspired (or copy if you like) features they liked from all the others. For that matter, Nintendo is said to have done the exact same thing, copying the TI VDP with a few elements from GI, Atari .. not sure about Commodore as the VIC-II would have been presented on the market at earliest spring 1982 at a point where Nintendo most probably had their PPU already mostly designed, though with over a year until the Famicom launch perhaps they added a few things from the VIC-II as well.

 

So to most part, the VIC-20 was made out of spare parts - a video/sound chip to most part already designed but without any customers, and a bunch of RAM chips laying around. It helped them get into the market before it was too late, forming developers, user groups, reseller networks. As you know, the C64 was launched in Aug/Sept 1982, about 1.5 year after the VIC-20. Without it, perhaps the C64 could have been launched a little earlier, some 6-8 months or so, depending on how soon the custom chips had been finished and possibly the RAM prices. Probably it would have been more expensive, closer to the $800 or so that an Atari 800 cost in early 1982. Commodore would also have been in a position where they were somewhat known in the business/educational/hobbyist sector for their PET/CBM machines, but mostly unknown in the consumer/games sector.

 

I'm willing to say back then, some 6-10 months difference when to enter the market had a lot of importance, plus that it was something completely else to be new on a market with at $799 computer compared to a $299 computer. Perhaps without the VIC-20, they would have considered a model with 16K or 32K for $499 or so, we will never know but unlike the advertising for the VIC which was pitched against the Atari 2600 (it does more than just play games!) rather than the Atari 400, Commodore really would have needed to pitch their entry in the consumer sector with the C64 and perhaps C32 based on what they considered was excellent specs vs competition (e.g. Atari, but also TI and the others), not as easy to pitch based on price.

 

Basically put, without the VIC-20, I strongly doubt the C64 would have become the success it de facto became sales wise, whether or not you think it deserved to sell in as many units over the years.

[_The Doctor__]

interesting he used his Atari 800 to do all the development and coding for both the 800 and the commodore... and I love his reason why, not the first time I've heard that...

[peteym5]

First of all I am glad to have programmed for the games and was able to sell over 300 cartridges since I started. I really like to demonstrate what the Atari 8-bit can do. I am looking into ways to do even more with future games. I wish to thank everyone for their support.

 

When I started up the Secretum Labyrinth game series, I was considering other platforms in mind right from the start. Can easily be ported to the 5200, 7800, Commodore 64, and Windows PC. As long as the system supports a character/tile mapped backgrounds and multiple sprites in the for ground. What I am doing for the 5200 is releasing a whole different game for that series specifically for how the 5200 memory is mapped. While I am waiting for the game to be released, I made several tweaks and applied a new method that allows more screens to be packed into the game.

[Kyle22]

I'd love to play the games on the machines but I've got my fingers in my ears and had to borrow someone to type this because of all the arguing over non changeable history..

 

If The Doctor is Doc Brown then feed that flux capacitor and change history

 

Seriously guys, its like arguing over who won the lottery and why they should not have won and you should have, its fun for a bit, then gets a bit pointless and then the arguing starts yet at the end of the day its done and set in stone as it were..The people spoke back then either rightly or wrongly, who knows for sure...

 

Hey, that's not MY finger in me ear!!!!!!

 

No, his name is "The Doctor", not Doc Brown. That means he has a T.A.R.D.I.S. (and is now Female).

 

 

At least he (I mean she) did away with those awful spiders...

Yes, I am an arachnophobe.

 

Edit: j/k Doc, but you already know that.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Kyle22

[_The Doctor__]

Yep, I am Doc Brown.... Since that other Doctor ran out of re-generations and they decided to destroy the whole universe, change it all, magically take the extra re-generation, somehow making it endless and put the latest B.S. cause front and center to help guide the easily amused and molded masses around to a certain way of thinking, I no longer drive the DeLorean there. In fact knowing what the drivel is all about... Einy and I chose better fare to spend our time on. There are much better entertainments to be sampled. Be careful what goes into your grey matter, before long nothing will matter.

Edited November 3, 2018 by _The Doctor__

[Gunstar]

interesting he used his Atari 800 to do all the development and coding for both the 800 and the commodore... and I love his reason why, not the first time I've heard that...

I agree, I'm also interested in trying out that last tid-bit he divulged, about loading the disk version of Gauntlet with a BASIC cartridge inserted...hopefully it will work with my ATR version I wrote back to floppy, if not through SIO2PC I lost the original disk(s) years ago.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

Yep, I am Doc Brown.... Since that other Doctor ran out of re-generations and they decided to destroy the whole universe, change it all, magically take the extra re-generation, somehow making it endless and put the latest B.S. cause front and center to help guide the easily amused and molded masses around to a certain way of thinking, I no longer drive the DeLorean there. In fact knowing what the drivel is all about... Einy and I chose better fare to spend our time on. There are much better entertainments to be sampled. Be careful what goes into your grey matter, before long nothing will matter.

Hallelujah brother, you've seen the light...

 

Actually I never even considered equating your handle name with Doctor Who. I equated it with either an Atari 8-bit "Doctor" or that you actually are a doctor in real life...or both.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Gunstar

[TMR]

How hard can it be to hang an IDE controller off the C64's bus? That's all that's required for an even playing field: nothing more.

Said hardware doesn't currently exist so any "comparison" would be completely theoretical even to the point of having to guess about implementation... but nobody said it had to be an even playing field, did they? All we started out with was Faicuai's statement that "it will be impossible for the C64 to show 60fps video, like Avery's SIDE-to-6502-to-ANTIC player [...] with native chipset (no HW modifications of any kind, other than the cart)" (my emphasis in both cases) and, since he's also mentioned that it act as a demonstration of "the platforms' true engineering latitude", a stock C64 with a solution Turbo Chameleon perfectly valid.

 

According to Faicuai there's apparently "NO WAY (none, zero, zippo, nul) to enable 60fps video if you do not have ample storage" so twenty something seconds of 60FPS video coming from a RAM expansion somehow isn't 60FPS video (I wonder how that works...?) but it still serves as a benchmark for transfer speeds. We still have to wander into the realms of "what if" after that point of course, but this hardware exists even if the firmware doesn't right now so no radical leaps of faith are being taken if we talk about custom firmware chucking data straight off the storage device down a DMA or even injecting the current frame directly into the RAM.

 

That doesn't seem too far fetched...? =-)

[Mclaneinc]

First of all I am glad to have programmed for the games and was able to sell over 300 cartridges since I started. I really like to demonstrate what the Atari 8-bit can do. I am looking into ways to do even more with future games. I wish to thank everyone for their support.

 

When I started up the Secretum Labyrinth game series, I was considering other platforms in mind right from the start. Can easily be ported to the 5200, 7800, Commodore 64, and Windows PC. As long as the system supports a character/tile mapped backgrounds and multiple sprites in the for ground. What I am doing for the 5200 is releasing a whole different game for that series specifically for how the 5200 memory is mapped. While I am waiting for the game to be released, I made several tweaks and applied a new method that allows more screens to be packed into the game.

 

That's more like it Pete, as you have done here, lets keep the piracy side out, it a whole new bad apple...No one needs that debate...

 

Best of luck with the tweaks, can't wait to see the results..

 

Paul..

[TMR]

Ah Jason... ok. I told the X guys to whipe Cosine from the greetings list in our C64 demo

You forgot again, didn't you? =-)

[Mclaneinc]

 

No, his name is "The Doctor", not Doc Brown. That means he has a T.A.R.D.I.S. (and is now Female).

 

 

At least he (I mean she) did away with those awful spiders...

Yes, I am an arachnophobe.

 

Edit: j/k Doc, but you already know that.

 

The play on words re the Doctor was intentional...

 

Docs had surgery?

 

Hope the realignment went well doc

 

As for the debate re the C64 / Atari, its yet again descended into "I bet your machine can't do this" type stuff, its not as strong as that but its getting there again...

 

Paul..

[Lost Dragon]

Good luck on getting much out of Bob Armour.

 

GTW tried finding out what happened to Murder on the C64 and Bob stopped replying for some strange reason.

 

Whilst it was nice of him to prove likes of ACE etc totally made up claims about 7800 Gauntlet, as an 800XL owner at the time, i was hugely dissapointed by Gauntlet having paid full price for it and waiting well over 30 mins for it to load on tape.

 

Poor collision detection and controls alone made the game tedious.

 

The C64 version was bugged to hell but a better attempt.

 

I believe Bob and the Gauntlet team used the Atari 8 bit computer to design the character sets, sprites and title screens for all the 8 bit home micro versions. ..

 

And the Amstrad CPC to design the maps and make the sound FX?.

 

As for the greater C64 Vs Atari 8 bit debate. .

 

 

As an 800XL owner before moving onto the C64 once it became apparent despite everything Atari UK were telling the press, the promised software support was never going to appear...

 

This has been debated to the point of tedium over the years.

 

There are a long list of games that really showcased the strength of the A8 hardware in key areas over the C64 and then the same can be said of the C64 over the Atari.

 

It's swings and roundabouts.

 

I'm simply so grateful to my parents for allowing me to experience both, as well as the Sinclair ZX81, Atari 2600 .

 

These were the machines they provided for me as a child, the ST being the 1st computer i bought with my own money.

 

And the fond memories will stay with me forever.

 

The online p#ssing contests between the 2 i thought had been put to bed years ago and people were these days just doing fantastic conversions of titles the C64 saw but the A8 didn't.

 

Guess i was wrong.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[TMR]

I see the Commodore 64 cartridges does support bank switching.

There are a couple of different schemes yes, I think two are in use right now.

 

Is this guy the only publisher of cartridges. I would like to see if anybody in the United States makes any.

RGCD is one source (it's more a "they" than a "he", there's a couple of people doing different jobs but James is the "front man"), Protovision another and there are a couple of one-or-two-person-bands brewing their own hardware for single releases, but I'm not aware of anyone putting out cartridges in the US at the moment.

 

Where I differ is that I hope in the future items that have become X years old (whatever time period is deemed ok) that these things do get dumped and made public because the Atari side tend to horde and the real carts / disks fade / become non available and there's no historical record of them about bar text

It looks like we're already on the way to losing at least one game that way, the developer of a C128 game sold it in small quantities on eBay so, despite the website having disappeared a few years ago, there are no copies archived. I think I know one person with an original disk and I hope he's at least backed it up...

[flashjazzcat]

That doesn't seem too far fetched...? =-)

In the interests of impartiality, I must point out that I'm pretty indifferent to the outcome of "which is best". I'm simply saying that all that is required is an IDE controller. If the C64 can't play video by directly addressing said IDE controller, then that would be a +1 for Atari. Additional guff and bullshit is unnecessary.

[Faicuai]

Said hardware doesn't currently exist so any "comparison" would be completely theoretical even to the point of having to guess about implementation... but nobody said it had to be an even playing field, did they?

[peteym5]

RGCD is one source (it's more a "they" than a "he", there's a couple of people doing different jobs but James is the "front man"), Protovision another and there are a couple of one-or-two-person-bands brewing their own hardware for single releases, but I'm not aware of anyone putting out cartridges in the US at the moment.

 

If someone can make the boards and take the same type of EPROM chips we use on the Atari 8-bit, Video 61 can burn the ROMs for the cartridges. That if he wants to do Commodore, last time I asked he wants to stick with Atari. He would need some real hardware to test it on. The other concern is if VICE currently supports these bank switching cartridges so I can test them during development before having the EPROMs made. Save everyone a lot of trouble.

 

A game like Secretum Labyrinth being 64K or larger would make the game can only run from the cartridge on real hardware and would make a lot of extra work for someone to alter to make it run from memory + floppy disk. So that does take care of something. Pretty sure the Commodore people will jump in say the Commodore 64 will play the music better through the Sid chip. It would need to be set up to use 2 voices and leave #3 open for the sound effects. What is the Commodore equivalent of RMT? What was Jack Tremiels obsession with 3 channel sound? 64, 128, and first ST had 3 sound channels. 16,+4 had 2, Vic-20 had only 3 pure tone + noise, on volume control. Vs. Atari 8-bit and Amiga having 4 voices. Anyone serious about music probably want 8 channels or more, which we did not see until the PC Sound Blaster cards.

 

I know people are going to ask about Tempest being ported over. I already see there is a game called "Axis Assassin" that looks great. Can I do something with Commodore 64 bitmap mode + 8 sprites overlay? I see Venture and Zoo Keeper was never faithfully ported.

 

Can the Commodore 64 sprites be multiplex? Use Raster Interrupts + alternate between sprites if more than 8 are to be displayed on a scan line.

 

As I stated I am not jumping in here stating the Commodore 64 is inferior but good programmers will look at its advantages

Edited November 3, 2018 by peteym5

[Mclaneinc]

Ok, lets try a different slant...

 

Any one heard of Limbo on the PC and Androids etc, very very simple graphical game based on puzzles and atmosphere, in truth I reckon it could de done on an 8 bit and I just saw the C64 'preview' and it looks great, all very simple but a clean looking adaptation of the original which I'm sure is well in the Atari's ability..

 

Here's the C64 link to the demo / preview, its short and sweet and reeks of the original goodness....It does have a strange release date of 2024 but I'm sure its a scene joke...

 

https://csdb.dk/release/?id=170891

 

The point, the C64 guys are willing to try their hands at many a game, they get as many wrong as right, well probably more wrong but they give them a shot and for every preview there's a normal chance that it won't go beyond that BUT they try, our lads and lasses do the same but not with the same OPEN notification of it....I'd be dead excited just to know someone was even trying to port this and if it never happened for whatever reason then I've lost nothing but a bit of hope. The C64 scene show more of what they try hence the scene seems bigger than the Atari one..

 

Again, a site that covers these things in the sort of detail as atarionline.pl would be great...Yes atarionline offers a Goggle translation on the site but a USA or English as first choice would be nice which just covers on new games, new games coming (authors get the details out) and even proof of concepts would really spur on both the dev community and the followers..

Edited November 3, 2018 by Mclaneinc

[Mclaneinc]

Axis Assassin was also an Atari computer release..Another EA quality title...

 

Good luck on any C64 stuff, more sprite colours...

Edited November 3, 2018 by Mclaneinc

[_The Doctor__]

I'm just glad I inspired good people to read as well as dig beyond the given article to have a more informed discussion- even if a person had decided to come back with attempts to evoke a spirit of bad feelings or emote/ascribe a a weakness as some how mine. That's called projection, so I'll just shrug that off.

 

as for some other thing mentioned by another, nah... not that kind of surgery, as evidenced by my latter post... I am not into that sort of thing. Was kind of funny though.

Edited November 3, 2018 by _The Doctor__

[Lost Dragon]

Axis Assassin was also an Atari computer release..Another EA quality title...

 

Good luck on any C64 stuff, more sprite colours...

https://youtu.be/pHacK2coIFk

 

Think i pointed the editor of RG magazine in the direction of this one many years ago,when he took the stance that nobody had ever produced a clone of Tempest back in the day.

 

:-))

[_The Doctor__]

 

Think i pointed the editor of RG magazine in the direction of this one many years ago,when he took the stance that nobody had ever produced a clone of Tempest back in the day.

 

:-))

So glad someone didn't say... okay that box get ticked off and forgot about it. If that had been the case we wouldn't have ended up with Tempest as was done later on the A8

new tempest... old tempest

newer tempest

for more search out Tempest Extreme Elite etc. tack on 8 bit , Atari, XL, XE you know the variations...

Edited November 3, 2018 by _The Doctor__