Black Box Compatability

[+Larry]

Last night, I hooked up my BB to an 800XL that has two mods: a Newell 256K upgrade, and a 32-in-1 OS module. One of these appears incompatible with the BB. When I boot the computer, the boot halts randomly, and spurious characters start appearing on the screen.

 

Is anyone using a Newell 256K, 800XL with the BB? Or how about Rambo? Same for the 32-in-1 module?

 

The BB is not at fault. I use it frequently with a 130XE and after encountering the issue with the 256K XL, I got out a stock 800XL, and it worked fine with the BB.

Also, when booting with an SIO drive, the 256K XL works fine.

 

Thanks,

Larry

[Mathy]

Hello Larry

 

You probably have a Mexican CPU in that 800XL. With both the Newell upgrade and the BlackBox inthere, you're probably putting to much strain on an already week Phi2 signal.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[guus.assmann]

Hello Larry

 

You probably have a Mexican CPU in that 800XL. With both the Newell upgrade and the BlackBox inthere, you're probably putting to much strain on an already week Phi2 signal.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

It may be a Q2 timing problem.

On a 800XL you might try to make a connection between pin 4 (or 5, it's connected) and pin 13 of the 74LS08.

This AND gate buffers the Q output of the Antic and this connecton shifts the signal a little bit.

Mostly enough to solve the problem. (Pin 13 is connected to Plus 5V trough a pullup resistor)

 

Alternatively, there is a discription of "stabelising mods" by the designer of the BB.

 

BR/

Guus

[+Larry]

Hi Guus and Mathy-

 

Thanks for your replies. I got it working, and the problem on this computer was the 32-in-1 OS. On this XL, the first thing I did was swap out the cpu from the XL that worked fine. Same issue using the new cpu. Then I did "Stable XL" mod #1 (74LS08 pin 4 to 13). Same result. Since it was easy to rip out, I pulled the 32-in-1 and replaced it with a single eprom OS -- success! Put in a Ramrod XL board with 3 OS's -- success! Mod #2 from CSS might well have cured it, but since the 32-in-1 is a board, it is a little more complicated to do, so I opted to leave it out. I'll save it for a 1200XL (no PBI).

 

-Larry

 

 

Hello Larry

 

You probably have a Mexican CPU in that 800XL. With both the Newell upgrade and the BlackBox in there, you're probably putting to much strain on an already week Phi2 signal.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

It may be a Q2 timing problem.

On a 800XL you might try to make a connection between pin 4 (or 5, it's connected) and pin 13 of the 74LS08.

This AND gate buffers the Q output of the Antic and this connecton shifts the signal a little bit.

Mostly enough to solve the problem. (Pin 13 is connected to Plus 5V trough a pullup resistor)

 

Alternatively, there is a discription of "stabelising mods" by the designer of the BB.

 

BR/

Guus

[Urchlay]

Thanks for your replies. I got it working, and the problem on this computer was the 32-in-1 OS ... I'll save it for a 1200XL (no PBI).

 

My 1200XL with 32-in-1 has a couple of issues, I wonder if you'll be affected by them...

 

The BASIC XL cart only works with the 32-in-1 if I choose the 400/800 OS (revision A or B). It doesn't work with any of the XL OSes, not even APE Warp. The same cart works fine on an unmodded 800XL or an 800XL with 256K RAM, or even the 600XL I upgraded to 64K. Interestingly, even the 32-in-1 OS selection menu doesn't quite work right with that BXL cart inserted (there are control characters scattered through the menu screen).

 

Also, I have a Millipede cart that won't work on that 1200XL. I get the title screen for a split second, then it turns solid black. The same cart works perfectly on both 800XLs... but gives minor screen corruption on my 64K upgraded 600XL (still plays fine though).

 

Before anyone asks, yes, I thoroughly cleaned the carts and cart connectors... all the other carts in my meagre collection work perfectly on these machines, too.

 

When/if you do install the 32-in-1 in your 1200XL, if you own these two carts, let us know whether they work... Even if it turns out that BASIC XL just plain ain't compatible with the 32-in-1 on a 1200XL, I can live with that (I hardly ever use BXL anyway), but it'd be nice to get some confirmation.

[+Larry]

Thanks for your replies. I got it working, and the problem on this computer was the 32-in-1 OS ... I'll save it for a 1200XL (no PBI).

 

My 1200XL with 32-in-1 has a couple of issues, I wonder if you'll be affected by them...

 

The BASIC XL cart only works with the 32-in-1 if I choose the 400/800 OS (revision A or B). It doesn't work with any of the XL OSes, not even APE Warp. The same cart works fine on an unmodded 800XL or an 800XL with 256K RAM, or even the 600XL I upgraded to 64K. Interestingly, even the 32-in-1 OS selection menu doesn't quite work right with that BXL cart inserted (there are control characters scattered through the menu screen).

 

(snip...)

 

When/if you do install the 32-in-1 in your 1200XL, if you own these two carts, let us know whether they work... Even if it turns out that BASIC XL just plain ain't compatible with the 32-in-1 on a 1200XL, I can live with that (I hardly ever use BXL anyway), but it'd be nice to get some confirmation.

 

Hi Urchlay-

That's interesting! I had never heard of BXL not working with any particular model Atari. I have a pretty good memory and I do use BXL quite a bit, so I should remember this issue -- will let you know how it turns out.

-Larry

[carmel_andrews]

re: 32 in one upgrade

 

Never owned one (sounds nice though) but i have a thought, don't forget that these upgrades rely on portb ($d301/54017) being accessed and if your trying to use these upgrades (i.e 32 in 1, 3 o/s or like mine the 4 o/s upgrade) and also an xl/65xe with over 64k or a 130 with over 128k also trying to access portb...your'e going to run into problems

 

I say this because i was told that the quad or 4 o/s upgrade (omni/ultimon, warp speed and standard xe or xl o/s) whilst in ultimon xl or xe mode will not if your xl or xe has more then 64k (if xl) or 128k (if xe)

[guus.assmann]

Apart from loading the Q2 a bit more, I can think of no reason why the Basic XL shouldn't work.

The same interior is also used for Basic XE, Action and Mac/Bug 65.

To improve on the Q2 clock for the 600XL, make a connection on the 74LS08 (U7) between pin 2 and 4. (Pin 4 to 13 on the 800XL)

This should make it work just fine again. (If not, I'd suspect the MMU circuit)

I do have a 600XL with 64K and one with 256K. Both work just fine with the OSS-Cartridges. (No modification to the Q2 ! )

[Urchlay]

re: 32 in one upgrade

 

Never owned one (sounds nice though) but i have a thought, don't forget that these upgrades rely on portb ($d301/54017) being accessed and if your trying to use these upgrades (i.e 32 in 1, 3 o/s or like mine the 4 o/s upgrade) and also an xl/65xe with over 64k or a 130 with over 128k also trying to access portb...your'e going to run into problems

 

Actually, the 32-in-1 doesn't seem to use PORTB for its OS switching... in fact, if you choose the 400/800 OS, you can't enable BASIC or the self-test ROM, or disable the OS, which to me suggests that the 32-in-1 is "taking over" those functions from PORTB. Also, I've got 256K of RAM in the same 1200XL with the 32-in-1, and no problems using it as a RAMdisk or running demos/games that use >64K. BASIC XL doesn't use PORTB for its bankswitching anyway... I've run Turbo BASIC (which uses RAM underneath the OS) and it works fine in any of the XL OSes from the 32-in-1.

 

Apart from loading the Q2 a bit more, I can think of no reason why the Basic XL shouldn't work.

The same interior is also used for Basic XE, Action and Mac/Bug 65.

To improve on the Q2 clock for the 600XL, make a connection on the 74LS08 (U7) between pin 2 and 4. (Pin 4 to 13 on the 800XL)

This should make it work just fine again. (If not, I'd suspect the MMU circuit)

I do have a 600XL with 64K and one with 256K. Both work just fine with the OSS-Cartridges. (No modification to the Q2 ! )

 

Actually, BXL works fine on the upgraded 600XL. It's Millipede which gives me trouble (slightly corrupted graphics)... but only when I run it from cart. A while back someone was kind enough to post a cracked binary (the ROM contains "self destruct" code), and the game plays just fine when loaded from DOS. The same cart doesn't work at all on the 1200XL with 32-in-1 and 256K, but does work on the 800XL with 256K... I dunno what's wrong.

[carmel_andrews]

the o/s switching and accessing the portb location i guess/think only takes place once the particular o/s you have selected is loaded in and up and running... that's where the prob's might start, esp. if your using a modd'd osa/osb or a replacement to the standard xl/xe os like the jobbies that come with the 32 in 1 o/s and also a RAM upgraded xl or xe (and utilising the extra memory)

 

Also don't forget, there might be portions of the black box system firmware/software that might also be trying to access portb

 

namely o/s switching and access to the portb location only occurs once that os/ you have selected and loaded in and up and running

 

That's why, for instance, if you've ever used omnimon xl on a pucka a8 or thru an emulator, it sometimes re-enables basic (even if you've disabled basic with the option key on boot up) once you've loaded in your disk/cassete software and you've entered back into omnimon

[Mathy]

Hello Urchlay

 

... in fact, if you choose the 400/800 OS, you can't enable BASIC or the self-test ROM, or disable the OS, which to me suggests that the 32-in-1 is "taking over" those functions from PORTB. Also, I've got 256K of RAM in the same 1200XL with the 32-in-1, and no problems using it as a RAMdisk or running demos/games that use >64K. BASIC XL doesn't use PORTB for its bankswitching anyway...

 

$D301 was first used for switching stuff in and out on the 1200XL. The 400/800 uses cartridges. If you need BASIC, you just stick the BASIC cartridge in. That's why you go to BASIC in a lot of DOS versions when you choose "run cartridge". And that's also why you can not use $D301 on a 400/800 to (de)select OS ROM, BASIC, Selftest and memory switching is usually done by writing a number (1 to 256) into memory location $CFFF.

 

Cartridges shouldn't use $D301 to switch anything but extended memory. To select banks in their own ROM, they should use $D5xx. There's a very nice piece of text by John K. Picken on this subject on the net (it used to be on Jindroush site).

 

The Blackbox, like many other PBI devices, doesn't really stick to the rules when it comes to using memory the correct way (it uses the right addresses but not as it is supposed to), but it doesn't do "under the OS ROM" stuff AFAIK.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy