JagCF last news before the before the launch of final proto.

[SebRmv]

Firstly, I think this "Jag-Ware vs Jagware" debate is of no interest at all. You may open another thread about this topic if you **really** want to "discuss" about that.

 

Secondly, this debate about the performance of the JagCF is purely sterile because it won't change anything. If you are not interested in this device or don't like its spirit, then just don't buy it.

 

And thirdly, of course, the JagCF can be seen as just a new development kit for a stock Jaguar (but this is very restrictive).

 

PS: these remarks engage only me.

Edited September 22, 2007 by SebRmv

[JagChris]

Firstly, I think this "Jag-Ware vs Jagware" debate is of no interest at all. You may open another thread about this topic if you **really** want to "discuss" about that.

 

Secondly, this debate about the performance of the JagCF is purely sterile because it won't change anything. If you are not interested in this device or don't like its spirit, then just don't buy it.

 

And thirdly, of course, the JagCF can be seen as just a new development kit for a stock Jaguar (but this is very restrictive).

 

PS: these remarks engage only me.

 

No problem Seb.

 

I'd actually be interested in the CF if it turned out to be a relatively inexpensive full featured Alpine replacement.

[Pocket]

Guys, don't loose your time answering T2Freeker, he's trying to troll this topic with a question wich has already been answered a long time ago. Nothing new. Funny to see him concerned by rights, when you know he has been searching a pirate copy of Gorf.

 

If you're a real Jagfan, you enjoy when someone brings life in the system. If you don't like it, you just don't buy it. Badmouthing people are not welcome here on AA (spiffyone, I think you weren't concerned by Starcat words)

 

Back to CF discussion please

 

Hmmm, upon further research, it does appear that the Jag-Ware logo and the JagWare logo are the exact same graphic except with the '-' removed in one. Whoever thought up the name JagWare obviously er, um, borrowed it intentionally.

 

You're losing your time with your upon research, it was borrowed from the original Jaguar logo, nothing more.

 

Could we have a more serious discussion please ?

[GT Turbo]

Your statement makes no sense. You were just berating people for slapping new gfx chip and cpu's in their PC's instead of doing better code. They could make this same argument you make.

 

About my game Project Apocalpypse, have you seen i will use this new DSP ? No, the only thing i will use is the streaming option, that's all, for avoiding loading time. I will use the DSP for another kind of games, i want to kick some ass with my sprite manager, so i will only use two stock risc.

 

You talk about better code, but a lof ot people crying no to the JagCF want to do C on a Jaguar, do you think it's normal ?

For me not. C isn't the faster langage on any machine, only assembler can get the hell from all machines on earth.

 

I think you got a little problem to understood :

 

People who want to use the new DSP use it, else don't use it, that's very easy to understand no ?

 

 

GT Turbo

 

P.S : another pm for supporting the JagCF !!

[JagChris]

Your statement makes no sense. You were just berating people for slapping new gfx chip and cpu's in their PC's instead of doing better code. They could make this same argument you make.

 

You talk about better code, but a lof ot people crying no to the JagCF want to do C on a Jaguar, do you think it's normal ?

For me not. C isn't the faster langage on any machine, only assembler can get the hell from all machines on earth.

 

No. You talked about better code. Not I.

[SebRmv]

Firstly, I think this "Jag-Ware vs Jagware" debate is of no interest at all. You may open another thread about this topic if you **really** want to "discuss" about that.

 

Secondly, this debate about the performance of the JagCF is purely sterile because it won't change anything. If you are not interested in this device or don't like its spirit, then just don't buy it.

 

And thirdly, of course, the JagCF can be seen as just a new development kit for a stock Jaguar (but this is very restrictive).

 

PS: these remarks engage only me.

 

No problem Seb.

 

I'd actually be interested in the CF if it turned out to be a relatively inexpensive full featured Alpine replacement.

 

It was not against you, it is just my general feeling about this thread and how it got polluted by sterile debates.

 

Anyway, then consider yourself happy because as far as I know, it can be considered as a viable and cheap Alpine replacement

Edited September 22, 2007 by SebRmv

[gvia66]

For me the most important is :

- like catbox and ethernet connection (for playing all aroud the world by internet) with address server for connecting peoples.

- CF card for playing NEW FREE GAMES and OLD COMMERCIALS GAMES (there are no longer avalable in Europe becose jaguar be avalable too late and orignals games are very expencive)

 

i don't like NEW RISC processor (new processors betray original Atari architecture) the jaguar is a powerfull system who have bad developper utility's. PLEASE DON'T ADD IT.

 

guillem

[spiffyone]

Firstly, I think this "Jag-Ware vs Jagware" debate is of no interest at all. You may open another thread about this topic if you **really** want to "discuss" about that.

 

Secondly, this debate about the performance of the JagCF is purely sterile because it won't change anything. If you are not interested in this device or don't like its spirit, then just don't buy it.

 

And thirdly, of course, the JagCF can be seen as just a new development kit for a stock Jaguar (but this is very restrictive).

 

PS: these remarks engage only me.

 

 

I figure the statement in bold is at least partly directed at me.

 

To which I will reply:

 

What part of "just because I disagree with it philosophically doesn't mean I'll avoid buying it, especially if good games are made for it" isn't understandable? Because, y'know, I've stated that several times already.

 

Seriously.

 

Stop replying with "if you don't agree with it 100%, don't buy it", as I've already answered that, philosophy aside, I'm looking forward to the product. But looking forward to it doesn't mean I have to agree with the philosophy behind it 100% and doesn't mean I shouldn't, on a forum for opinions no less, avoid voicing my opinions. So, please, everyone replying with that nonsensical answer, stop already.

 

Jeez. Since when has voicing an opinion, stating a disagreement in philosophy, amounting to a personal attack? Some are acting as if voicing my differing philosophy on an add-on to a video game console on a forum for such things is akin to a personal attack. Get a grip.

[SebRmv]

Firstly, I think this "Jag-Ware vs Jagware" debate is of no interest at all. You may open another thread about this topic if you **really** want to "discuss" about that.

 

Secondly, this debate about the performance of the JagCF is purely sterile because it won't change anything. If you are not interested in this device or don't like its spirit, then just don't buy it.

 

And thirdly, of course, the JagCF can be seen as just a new development kit for a stock Jaguar (but this is very restrictive).

 

PS: these remarks engage only me.

 

 

I figure the statement in bold is at least partly directed at me.

 

To which I will reply:

 

What part of "just because I disagree with it philosophically doesn't mean I'll avoid buying it, especially if good games are made for it" isn't understandable? Because, y'know, I've stated that several times already.

 

Seriously.

 

Stop replying with "if you don't agree with it 100%, don't buy it", as I've already answered that, philosophy aside, I'm looking forward to the product. But looking forward to it doesn't mean I have to agree with the philosophy behind it 100% and doesn't mean I shouldn't, on a forum for opinions no less, avoid voicing my opinions. So, please, everyone replying with that nonsensical answer, stop already.

 

Jeez. Since when has voicing an opinion, stating a disagreement in philosophy, amounting to a personal attack? Some are acting as if voicing my differing philosophy on an add-on to a video game console on a forum for such things is akin to a personal attack. Get a grip.

 

Sorry, I did not want to be rude. Actually, I have made a wrong shortcut.

I should have split in two parts:

1-Discussing about the technical features is great but won't change anything (obviously, it will not be redesigned to have slower performance).

2-For people who do not like the JagCF (and apparently there are some strong opponents), just don't buy it instead of bashing it.

[EmOneGarand]

Firstly, I think this "Jag-Ware vs Jagware" debate is of no interest at all. You may open another thread about this topic if you **really** want to "discuss" about that.

 

Secondly, this debate about the performance of the JagCF is purely sterile because it won't change anything. If you are not interested in this device or don't like its spirit, then just don't buy it.

 

And thirdly, of course, the JagCF can be seen as just a new development kit for a stock Jaguar (but this is very restrictive).

 

PS: these remarks engage only me.

 

 

I figure the statement in bold is at least partly directed at me.

 

To which I will reply:

 

What part of "just because I disagree with it philosophically doesn't mean I'll avoid buying it, especially if good games are made for it" isn't understandable? Because, y'know, I've stated that several times already.

 

Seriously.

 

Stop replying with "if you don't agree with it 100%, don't buy it", as I've already answered that, philosophy aside, I'm looking forward to the product. But looking forward to it doesn't mean I have to agree with the philosophy behind it 100% and doesn't mean I shouldn't, on a forum for opinions no less, avoid voicing my opinions. So, please, everyone replying with that nonsensical answer, stop already.

 

Jeez. Since when has voicing an opinion, stating a disagreement in philosophy, amounting to a personal attack? Some are acting as if voicing my differing philosophy on an add-on to a video game console on a forum for such things is akin to a personal attack. Get a grip.

 

Sorry, I did not want to be rude. Actually, I have made a wrong shortcut.

I should have split in two parts:

1-Discussing about the technical features is great but won't change anything (obviously, it will not be redesigned to have slower performance).

2-For people who do not like the JagCF (and apparently there are some strong opponents), just don't buy it instead of bashing it.

It's the lingering threat of piracy, the JagCF is a great idea IF it has software, JAGWARE has software in the works. So is the ability to play "roms" really necessary? Obviously this is where the damn fissure in the community forms. Alot of people say thay won't buy it if they can't play roms on it, BULLSHIT. If their are games for it they will buy it.

[viMaster]

Ok, it seems this question hasn't been asked directly in a very long time and there is, indeed, a split in the community regarding this issue.

I will straight up ask it in hopes to get a 100% straight and direct answer, since Jagware claims the add-on is coming closer and closer to reality.

 

... Will the Jagware compact flash add-on card support the loading of commercial game ROMs?

 

All we need is a simple "yes" or "no" answer and a lot of the animosity may just subside. It would be better to know now rather than later.

Please someone from Jagware, who is in a position of power to speak for this hardware add-on, respond plainly so we can all understand

 

This is not meant to encourage flames -- it's a simple question, which is the main concern regarding this add-on card you are developing.

 

Thank you.

[Zerosquare]

... Will the Jagware compact flash add-on card support the loading of commercial game ROMs?

(...)

Please someone from Jagware, who is in a position of power to speak for this hardware add-on, respond plainly so we can all understand

I'd like to give you a straight "yes" or "no" answer, but the truth is that it's such a sensitive question in the Jaguar community that we've not managed to make a firm choice yet. Besides, running existing ROMs is not the main reason for which the JagCF has been created - it's merely an "extra".

 

Our current choice is to restrict the support of ROMs to selected games only, for which there is no issue (i.e. prototypes, public domain ROMs, and games whose authors explicitly agree).

 

Please keep in mind that the presence or absence of this feature does not impact the hardware. So postponing this decision will not delay the release of the JagCF, and things may evolve in the future with a simple firmware update.

[viMaster]

... Will the Jagware compact flash add-on card support the loading of commercial game ROMs?

(...)

Please someone from Jagware, who is in a position of power to speak for this hardware add-on, respond plainly so we can all understand

I'd like to give you a straight "yes" or "no" answer, but the truth is that it's such a sensitive question in the Jaguar community that we've not managed to make a firm choice yet. Besides, running existing ROMs is not the main reason for which the JagCF has been created - it's merely an "extra".

 

Our current choice is to restrict the support of ROMs to selected games only, for which there is no issue (i.e. prototypes, public domain ROMs, and games whose authors explicitly agree).

 

Please keep in mind that the presence or absence of this feature does not impact the hardware. So postponing this decision will not delay the release of the JagCF, and things may evolve in the future with a simple firmware update.

Interesting. Thank you for the reply. It's probably the most straight-forward answer I've seen yet. It looks like your current choice to restrict the support of ROMs is a good one -- as you say, authors who explicitly say it's ok to distribute, public domain ROMs (I'm not quite sure what these are defined as) and prototypes should all be ok, as far as I know.

If you continue with this path, I can't see a problem with releasing this add-on.

 

The only reason I really asked is that some devs have halted sales and/or development of games, because of this issue. The main concern is if their works will easily be pirated on the CF -- more accurately, if the CF will actively support commercial ROMs or the opposite being to actively do what's necessary to protect the developers and their works.

 

The sooner we know what the CF will allow or disallow, the sooner we know if some developers will altogether leave the Jaguar scene or continue their work at their own pace.

That also means that we'll potentially have more wicked jag games sooner

[Gorf]

... Will the Jagware compact flash add-on card support the loading of commercial game ROMs?

(...)

Please someone from Jagware, who is in a position of power to speak for this hardware add-on, respond plainly so we can all understand

I'd like to give you a straight "yes" or "no" answer, but the truth is that it's such a sensitive question in the Jaguar community that we've not managed to make a firm choice yet. Besides, running existing ROMs is not the main reason for which the JagCF has been created - it's merely an "extra".

 

Our current choice is to restrict the support of ROMs to selected games only, for which there is no issue (i.e. prototypes, public domain ROMs, and games whose authors explicitly agree).

 

Please keep in mind that the presence or absence of this feature does not impact the hardware. So postponing this decision will not delay the release of the JagCF, and things may evolve in the future with a simple firmware update.

Interesting. Thank you for the reply. It's probably the most straight-forward answer I've seen yet. It looks like your current choice to restrict the support of ROMs is a good one -- as you say, authors who explicitly say it's ok to distribute, public domain ROMs (I'm not quite sure what these are defined as) and prototypes should all be ok, as far as I know.

If you continue with this path, I can't see a problem with releasing this add-on.

 

The only reason I really asked is that some devs have halted sales and/or development of games, because of this issue. The main concern is if their works will easily be pirated on the CF -- more accurately, if the CF will actively support commercial ROMs or the opposite being to actively do what's necessary to protect the developers and their works.

 

The sooner we know what the CF will allow or disallow, the sooner we know if some developers will altogether leave the Jaguar scene or continue their work at their own pace.

That also means that we'll potentially have more wicked jag games sooner

 

 

Well that answer sounds to me they have NO intention of removing the ROMz feature. The fact that this thing can be updated

will make it a simple flash puff and then it WILL be able to pirate the hard work of others. I did not trust this thing when first

announce and I like it even less now. BANK on never seeing another 3DSSS game for Jaguar if this device comes about and

Jagware blatantly forgets to leave that feature out.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Gorf

[Atariboy]

I would think you'd be happy if your work was more available to the masses. Why not put your work on cd like Gorf was if you dislike it so much? If you do that, anyone with anything but a ancient computer could easily pirate your work and distribute it. And finding roms for things like the Songbird releases and Battlesphere isn't easy, you really have to search and even then, thankfully much of it doesn't appear to be available. Just maybe the Jaguar community can police itself.

 

And no offense, but wouldn't constructive statements regarding why it would be bad for such a feature to exist be more beneficial than threatening to not develop for the system anymore if it's released? Despite knowing the good job you did porting over Gorf, when I read such things my initial reaction is good riddance, and I don't think myself or any Jaguar fans want to lose individuals that want to support their system and might release excellent homebrew work later on. If it's so bad, educate us on why that is rather than basically saying if I don't get my way, I'm taking my ball and going home.

 

Such devices have just been a benefit to classic gamers fond of other systems, I think most would be disappointed if it lacked an ability to upload games to play off it. Things like the Cuttle Cart II seem to have sold to people with a passion for the system and they still seek the real cartridges even with the ability to just play the roms, I can't imagine a Jaguar device gaining such widespread adaptation that it noticeably detracts from anyone’s game sales, if anything it might spur it if people such as yourself utilize it by releasing some sort of demo of your work in order for people to try.

[Atari_Owl]

... and a lot of the animosity may just subside.

 

*sighhhhh* thats a good one

How long have you been in the Jag "community"?

Edited September 28, 2007 by Atari_Owl

[Fadest]

The only reason I really asked is that some devs have halted sales and/or development of games, because of this issue. The main concern is if their works will easily be pirated on the CF -- more accurately, if the CF will actively support commercial ROMs or the opposite being to actively do what's necessary to protect the developers and their works.

I have no fear on future developments on cartridge, their authors can include a special routine to detect the presence of the JagCF (allocate extra RAM, test new DSP, ...) and just stop their program, displaying an anti-copy screen if they want. Just like some Lynx developpers add some anti-real hardware to their in-dev demos, to avoid unwanted distribution of their games on PCB.

[Pocket]

Such devices have just been a benefit to classic gamers fond of other systems, I think most would be disappointed if it lacked an ability to upload games to play off it. Things like the Cuttle Cart II seem to have sold to people with a passion for the system and they still seek the real cartridges even with the ability to just play the roms, I can't imagine a Jaguar device gaining such widespread adaptation that it noticeably detracts from anyone’s game sales, if anything it might spur it if people such as yourself utilize it by releasing some sort of demo of your work in order for people to try.

 

Your comments are true. Sadly : I have understood this, speaking with the handfull anti-CF people : they have no clue of what happens in other communities/on other platforms. Even when you invite them to check it, they won't do it. So, instead of checking the reality, they just threaten, of this, or that.

 

Atari_Owl : good one

[Atari_Owl]

Just to clarify i am not siding with anyone.. i just feel there are many people in the 'community' who thrive on discord... it's the defining characteristic of jag forums... no matter what the circumstances may be.

[Bill Loguidice]

Such devices have just been a benefit to classic gamers fond of other systems, I think most would be disappointed if it lacked an ability to upload games to play off it. Things like the Cuttle Cart II seem to have sold to people with a passion for the system and they still seek the real cartridges even with the ability to just play the roms, I can't imagine a Jaguar device gaining such widespread adaptation that it noticeably detracts from anyone’s game sales, if anything it might spur it if people such as yourself utilize it by releasing some sort of demo of your work in order for people to try.

 

Your comments are true. Sadly : I have understood this, speaking with the handfull anti-CF people : they have no clue of what happens in other communities/on other platforms. Even when you invite them to check it, they won't do it. So, instead of checking the reality, they just threaten, of this, or that.

 

Atari_Owl : good one

 

Yeah, I have to agree with that too. I know of no other platform, including Atari platforms, that have put up such a fuss over the possibility - the user option side effect if you will - of playing ROMs on the system. You have to assume that the majority of people who are hardcore enough to bother with the Jaguar in the first place, then bother to pay the price for the JagCF, etc., would continue to be "hardcore" enough to pay for new homebrew software releases. Copying/enabling/transfer/whatever devices haven't ruined any of the dozens of other systems they've been made for, so why should the Jaguar be any different. The Jaguar dev community - while I have great respect for any developers, particularly on orphan platforms - are the most fragile bunch I've ever come across. The Jaguar "community" such as it is, will never grow at this rate and will be stagnant at best, and decrease in numbers at worst. To my non-developer, but enthusiast perspective, the JagCF can only mean good things for the system's future, not bad. The JagCF guys should be given free reign to build every logical feature in without restriction and leave it at that. I can't really recall any other such development on any other system being purposely crippled in deference to anyone else. It all but goes against the hacker mentality, the very mentality that makes such cool things possible. If people want to pirate, they'll ALWAYS find a way anyway.

[+remowilliams]

Just to clarify i am not siding with anyone.. i just feel there are many people in the 'community' who thrive on discord... it's the defining characteristic of jag forums... no matter what the circumstances may be.

That is true to the point of insanity. Even purposely staying at the fringes of Jag 'society' I'm still unfortunately getting rather fed up with some peoples constant belligerent /egomaniacal attitudes.

 

Yeah, I have to agree with that too. I know of no other platform, including Atari platforms, that have put up such a fuss over the possibility - the user option side effect if you will - of playing ROMs on the system. You have to assume that the majority of people who are hardcore enough to bother with the Jaguar in the first place, then bother to pay the price for the JagCF, etc., would continue to be "hardcore" enough to pay for new homebrew software releases.

EXACTLY

[viMaster]

... and a lot of the animosity may just subside.

 

*sighhhhh* thats a good one

How long have you been in the Jag "community"?

Obviously not long enough

I've been here since about last December, maybe.

 

I thought the prospect of limiting the loading of ROMs to only those that are legal to do would have been enough. I guess I was mistaken

[EmOneGarand]

... and a lot of the animosity may just subside.

 

*sighhhhh* thats a good one

How long have you been in the Jag "community"?

Obviously not long enough

I've been here since about last December, maybe.

 

I thought the prospect of limiting the loading of ROMs to only those that are legal to do would have been enough. I guess I was mistaken

the problem is the routines could only be put into NEW and FUTURE releases, this doesn't protect any of the games prior to the CF. There lies the problem.

[Nimtene]

I think the JagCF design should be 100% unrestricted, and born into

the world exactly as the developers see fit. Who knows what Jaguar

'purists' in 50 years will think about it; In the long run, I truely believe

it'll allow more Jaguar games to be developed and distributed for the

system (a few tempermental coders leave, but JagCF paves the way

for some other ones), and ultimately that is what's most important.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Nimtene

[GT Turbo]

I refused to draw any more pictures unless cameras were outlawed.

I refused to write any more books unless photocopiers were outlawed.

I refused to record any more music unless CD burners were outlawed.

I refused to film any more movies unless DVD burners were outlawed.

 

Yes, you're totally right !!!

 

 

GT