JagCF last news before the before the launch of final proto.

[Gorf]

and effort investment, you're doing it for those 200 buyers, right? If so, then screw everyone else. Their satisfaction from your work would be hollow anyway, right?

 

 

Hey guy! Be my guest...develope some agmes and invest the time and effort if you feel

it's worht the trouble.

 

DEAR LORD!!!

 

I can't beleive it's 3:20 AM! ...well..ive had enough of this crap for one evening.

 

Good nite all.

 

(Gorf bounces of to his little red planet behind the Andromea system.)

[Bill Loguidice]

and effort investment, you're doing it for those 200 buyers, right? If so, then screw everyone else. Their satisfaction from your work would be hollow anyway, right?

 

 

Hey guy! Be my guest...develope some agmes and invest the time and effort if you feel

it's worht the trouble.

 

DEAR LORD!!!

 

I can't beleive it's 3:20 AM! ...well..ive had enough of this crap for one evening.

 

Good nite all.

 

(Gorf bounces of to his little red planet behind the Andromea system.)

 

Again, if you're getting 200 buyers no matter what, what's the difference? Those same 200 people appreciate and "honor" you and get to legitimately enjoy the game. The pirates will have to go through the effort - which they'll do anyway - of imaging your cartridge. It's supremely vain and naive to think that any work you produce will not be freely utilized in some manner anyway. If I write a book and it goes to a library, I only get paid for the book once, despite the fact that hundreds of people can potentially read it "free". If I rent a videogame from Gamefly, Gamefly has purchased only a handful of copies that potentially dozens of people get to make use of. The game publisher sure doesn't benefit from that multiple. Do you see the point? That's all the price of living in the society that we do. If you produce something, you take the good with the bad, the benefits with the negatives. If you're not willing to take any risks whatsoever or trust in your target audience in any way, then you're absolutely right, the world does not deserve to be "blessed" with your hard work. Sadly, you'll never be able to release anything again under those untenable, unrealistic absolute conditions you've set...

[Atari_Owl]

If I rent a videogame from Gamefly, Gamefly has purchased only a handful of copies that potentially dozens of people get to make use of. The game publisher sure doesn't benefit from that multiple. Do you see the point?

 

 

Good grief.. its not the same thing AT ALL.

If the games is RENTED its not KEPT its RENTED.. the person RENTING THE GAME DOES NOT KEEP THE GAME FOR GOOD... if they like it they may still BUY IT since they only RENTED IT... i.e. did not have a FREE COPY WHICH THEY KEPT but merely RENTED IT.

 

Do you see the point?

[mariaud]

Hi!

 

This discussion is giving me split feelings... Why all the talk about how hard it is to code the Jag and how piracy which is ruining it all? Not piracy is runing the scene! People who have no respect for developers, that is what ruins the scene. Those who contactly attack developers and sacre them away, that is what costs the scene games... Native, Age of Darkness, Assassin and many many more. Only god knows how many more in the future.

 

Personally I think repspect and support (not necessarily in a money way), is the least developers deserve and while many may be glad developers are around a few people ruin it. That should be stopped, as it's a much bigger problem than piracy can ever be on the Jag.

 

Think about it, those of you who said, people who want to pirate would do it anyway, they would find a way. Of course they find a way.

You can rip cartridges with any dev kit that lets you read data from cartridge and send it to a computer from the Jaguar. That has been done very very long ago already. Anybody who cares to invest $100-200 can play any cart game that has been ripped. Flash Carts and Alpines can be bought at that price.

There even are other devices built that allow this, even though they are not widely known in the Jag scene.

Fact is, anybody who wants to can play roms if they care to. The emulator is another option, it supports many games.

 

Regarding CD, it's even easier. Today it's not hard to find tools that read CDs without correcting the read data and thus creating working copys of Jaguar games. Anybody can do that. They can even download demo versions of such tools for free that make it possible. How could pirating games be easier for anybody who wants to do it. Even pirating games for current systems is way more difficult and as we all know many people do that all the time.

I don't support piracy, if it harms developers, but I don't see how it does on the Jag. Seriously, those who care about Jaguar games, are fans anyway and they will buy the games, if they are worth buying. Even if it was merely to have a box for their collection.

 

The fact is, even though piracy has been possible on the Jag since Alpines, Flash carts and other homemade devices were available, it never appeared widely and it never will. The Jaguar is a system for fans supported by fans in a way. Everybody who is really interested in Jaguar games will buy them when they are worth buying. I have yet to hear about homebrew games being pirated. And if they were, I think the most likely format for it would be CD.

 

In fact, when you look at other communities, people feel that "free" software is inferior, and thus they prefer to buy the games, even if they previously were released for free.

 

I am a Jag developer myself and still I can't imagine any better thing happen to the Jaguar than Jaguar CF. I can't wait. It's cheaper than cart games, offers more space, among other amazing features and offers security, that is better than cart and cd together. Piracy really is not a danger on the Jaguar in my opinion. It hasn't harmed the community of other abandoned systems either. Look at the VCS community, 8-bit community, even other newer systems such as Dreamcast. Another great example is the GP2X, it's whole idea is a system that is open for homebrew games, yet official games can be released that have to be purchased and the fans are craving for games even though they could get lots of homebrew games for free too.

 

Regards, Lars.

 

surely one of the more interesting post here

[JagChris]

Hi!

 

This discussion is giving me split feelings... Why all the talk about how hard it is to code the Jag and how piracy which is ruining it all? Not piracy is runing the scene! People who have no respect for developers, that is what ruins the scene. Those who contactly attack developers and sacre them away, that is what costs the scene games... Native, Age of Darkness, Assassin and many many more. Only god knows how many more in the future.

 

Personally I think repspect and support (not necessarily in a money way), is the least developers deserve and while many may be glad developers are around a few people ruin it. That should be stopped, as it's a much bigger problem than piracy can ever be on the Jag.

 

Think about it, those of you who said, people who want to pirate would do it anyway, they would find a way. Of course they find a way.

You can rip cartridges with any dev kit that lets you read data from cartridge and send it to a computer from the Jaguar. That has been done very very long ago already. Anybody who cares to invest $100-200 can play any cart game that has been ripped. Flash Carts and Alpines can be bought at that price.

There even are other devices built that allow this, even though they are not widely known in the Jag scene.

Fact is, anybody who wants to can play roms if they care to. The emulator is another option, it supports many games.

 

Regarding CD, it's even easier. Today it's not hard to find tools that read CDs without correcting the read data and thus creating working copys of Jaguar games. Anybody can do that. They can even download demo versions of such tools for free that make it possible. How could pirating games be easier for anybody who wants to do it. Even pirating games for current systems is way more difficult and as we all know many people do that all the time.

I don't support piracy, if it harms developers, but I don't see how it does on the Jag. Seriously, those who care about Jaguar games, are fans anyway and they will buy the games, if they are worth buying. Even if it was merely to have a box for their collection.

 

The fact is, even though piracy has been possible on the Jag since Alpines, Flash carts and other homemade devices were available, it never appeared widely and it never will. The Jaguar is a system for fans supported by fans in a way. Everybody who is really interested in Jaguar games will buy them when they are worth buying. I have yet to hear about homebrew games being pirated. And if they were, I think the most likely format for it would be CD.

 

In fact, when you look at other communities, people feel that "free" software is inferior, and thus they prefer to buy the games, even if they previously were released for free.

 

I am a Jag developer myself and still I can't imagine any better thing happen to the Jaguar than Jaguar CF. I can't wait. It's cheaper than cart games, offers more space, among other amazing features and offers security, that is better than cart and cd together. Piracy really is not a danger on the Jaguar in my opinion. It hasn't harmed the community of other abandoned systems either. Look at the VCS community, 8-bit community, even other newer systems such as Dreamcast. Another great example is the GP2X, it's whole idea is a system that is open for homebrew games, yet official games can be released that have to be purchased and the fans are craving for games even though they could get lots of homebrew games for free too.

 

Regards, Lars.

 

surely one of the more interesting post here

 

 

There ya go! Have him run your Customer Service Campaign after the CF is released! That oughta be a hoot!

 

'We're sorry but JagWare cannot be responsible for your CF malfunctioning due to the moon's gravitational pull. There is simply nothing we can do about that...'

[Pocket]

Well....go ahead..start coding...and after months of hand coding RISC code to run in main

because there are no tools that understand it can be done, after spending 12+ years to really

know a machine, to wring the very best performance you can for the sole purpose of offering

games worthy of a 64 bit machine.

This post seems strange for me, because I would say you are the one, amongst other active developper, that is abale, using your technological knowledges to protect your work (detect that program is run from something else than your PCB).

 

Concerning making hard work, putting his heart into our work, and making money, I choosed another option for the 3rd point, so I am not sure to be the best person to discuss about that.

 

 

At least you admit it.

 

I think you didn't understand what Fadest said : he said that he choosed to develop full games and give the hard work of his team for free to everyone, so he's not the best person to talk about people who choose to sell their games.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Pocket

[Pocket]

(Bill_Loguidice @ Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:21 AM)

Yeah, I have to agree with that too. I know of no other platform, including Atari platforms, that have put up such a fuss over the possibility - the user option side effect if you will - of playing ROMs on the system.

 

Dreamcast community.

 

Just FYI on that one.

 

It's a semi sore spot.

 

The indy community understands that cracking the system to play games off of CD-Rs was necessary to even have an indy scene (due to DC using proprietary GD-ROMs for games), but the whole burning commercially released games onto CD-R thing, which was in fact part of the reason Dreamcast was killed off by Sega (they needed every last red cent off of software sales they could muster, and piracy made that impossible)

 

Sorry that's wrong, see the last post of this page : http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...5559&st=125

[Pocket]

(Bill_Loguidice @ Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:21 AM)

Yeah, I have to agree with that too. I know of no other platform, including Atari platforms, that have put up such a fuss over the possibility - the user option side effect if you will - of playing ROMs on the system.

 

Dreamcast community.

 

Just FYI on that one.

 

It's a semi sore spot.

 

The indy community understands that cracking the system to play games off of CD-Rs was necessary to even have an indy scene (due to DC using proprietary GD-ROMs for games), but the whole burning commercially released games onto CD-R thing, which was in fact part of the reason Dreamcast was killed off by Sega (they needed every last red cent off of software sales they could muster, and piracy made that impossible) has always been frowned upon...even though it's part of the reason there's even a scene in the first place.

 

Go to a Dreamcast enthusiast forum and talk of burning a CDI of a homebrew demo, and you'll be fine. Go in and talk about burning a CDI of, say, Shenmue, and expect to get flamed to Valhalla.

 

 

We have Dream cast games in the works too.

 

And you know the Dreamcast is one of the most easily piratable system around here, right ?

[mariaud]

Hi!

 

This discussion is giving me split feelings... Why all the talk about how hard it is to code the Jag and how piracy which is ruining it all? Not piracy is runing the scene! People who have no respect for developers, that is what ruins the scene. Those who contactly attack developers and sacre them away, that is what costs the scene games... Native, Age of Darkness, Assassin and many many more. Only god knows how many more in the future.

 

Personally I think repspect and support (not necessarily in a money way), is the least developers deserve and while many may be glad developers are around a few people ruin it. That should be stopped, as it's a much bigger problem than piracy can ever be on the Jag.

 

Think about it, those of you who said, people who want to pirate would do it anyway, they would find a way. Of course they find a way.

You can rip cartridges with any dev kit that lets you read data from cartridge and send it to a computer from the Jaguar. That has been done very very long ago already. Anybody who cares to invest $100-200 can play any cart game that has been ripped. Flash Carts and Alpines can be bought at that price.

There even are other devices built that allow this, even though they are not widely known in the Jag scene.

Fact is, anybody who wants to can play roms if they care to. The emulator is another option, it supports many games.

 

Regarding CD, it's even easier. Today it's not hard to find tools that read CDs without correcting the read data and thus creating working copys of Jaguar games. Anybody can do that. They can even download demo versions of such tools for free that make it possible. How could pirating games be easier for anybody who wants to do it. Even pirating games for current systems is way more difficult and as we all know many people do that all the time.

I don't support piracy, if it harms developers, but I don't see how it does on the Jag. Seriously, those who care about Jaguar games, are fans anyway and they will buy the games, if they are worth buying. Even if it was merely to have a box for their collection.

 

The fact is, even though piracy has been possible on the Jag since Alpines, Flash carts and other homemade devices were available, it never appeared widely and it never will. The Jaguar is a system for fans supported by fans in a way. Everybody who is really interested in Jaguar games will buy them when they are worth buying. I have yet to hear about homebrew games being pirated. And if they were, I think the most likely format for it would be CD.

 

In fact, when you look at other communities, people feel that "free" software is inferior, and thus they prefer to buy the games, even if they previously were released for free.

 

I am a Jag developer myself and still I can't imagine any better thing happen to the Jaguar than Jaguar CF. I can't wait. It's cheaper than cart games, offers more space, among other amazing features and offers security, that is better than cart and cd together. Piracy really is not a danger on the Jaguar in my opinion. It hasn't harmed the community of other abandoned systems either. Look at the VCS community, 8-bit community, even other newer systems such as Dreamcast. Another great example is the GP2X, it's whole idea is a system that is open for homebrew games, yet official games can be released that have to be purchased and the fans are craving for games even though they could get lots of homebrew games for free too.

 

Regards, Lars.

 

surely one of the more interesting post here

 

 

There ya go! Have him run your Customer Service Campaign after the CF is released! That oughta be a hoot!

 

'We're sorry but JagWare cannot be responsible for your CF malfunctioning due to the moon's gravitational pull. There is simply nothing we can do about that...'

 

 

 

 

as far as I know I have nothing to do with the jagcf creation ... so ... I repeat my previous post "surely one of the more interesting post here" not yours ... and, except trolling what are you doing here ?

[Gorf]

they'll do anyway - of imaging your cartridge. It's supremely vain and naive to think that any work you produce will not be freely utilized in some manner anyway.

work. Sadly, you'll never be able to release anything again under those untenable, unrealistic absolute conditions you've set...

 

 

For the Jguar...it 's not worth the trouble, other systems yeah,....and nice try but it still wont yeild you any new releases from us.

[Gorf]

I think you didn't understand what Fadest said : he said that he choosed to develop full games and give the hard work of his team for free to everyone, so he's not the best person to talk about people who choose to sell their games.

 

 

I completely understood it. And maybe I value my time and efforts more than he does.

[Zerosquare]

I'm getting tired of this, but a few things need to be set straight.

 

You know its funny that in all of this no JagWare member steps forward and says 'look, we're not in this to hurt anyone or support piracy'.

We already did. Several times. Examples :

Besides allowing cartridge developers who don't have an Alpine to test their software, and running protos, this JagCF feature is intended to let people run the cartridges they own from a Compact Flash (like similar solutions on other platforms). There's nothing illegal about playing games you own. If someone decides to pirate games using the JagCF, it's their legal and ethical responsability -- we certainly don't support this, and this is not the function of the JagCF.

We're not doing anything to harm or blackmail the developers. If they request it, we will even provide them with means to detect the JagCF in their software, so they can choose to make their future (non-CF) releases purposefully incompatible.

 

Also how can any one possibly equate an official developer kit with a device that is CLEARLY inetnded to be used for romz?

Yeah, right

If we intended the JagCF to be a "pirate tool" :

• Would we have bothered developing the new DSP, the new network, the USB link, etc. ?
  
• Would we have discussed the ROM-running feature in public forums well before the release of the product ?
  
• Would we have discussed copy-protection schemes with developers ?
  
• Would we have set the retail price such as to get very little profit ?
  

If Jagware wanted real help and real deelopers they could have appraoched this a lot less cocky than they did. Instead they showed no respect for the MANY other developers who have clearly made reasonable cases.

We did invite developers to express themselves :

I think he don't speak about that Sauron, we have opened a private room on Jagware for speaking about 'roms emulation' on JagCF and for avoiding trollers and flammers, it's only open to developpers. So if some developpers here want to talk about, you're welcome on Jagware. But please only developpers nobody else.

People such has AtariOwl, Songbird, Matthias Domin, StarCat and others did respond to the invitation. And for the record, no, they did not all agree with each other. This is why the final decision has not been made yet.

 

The JagCF guys should be ashamed for NOT purposely crippling the device out of respect for the existing developers

We already do that :

Our current choice is to restrict the support of ROMs to selected games only, for which there is no issue (i.e. prototypes, public domain ROMs, and games whose authors explicitly agree).

 

It uses an FPGA or CPLD...firmware updateable to defeat our defeat. Yes we are safe in Revision one. Then we get douched in the next firmware update.

The possibility of changing the status of ROM emulation in future upgrades will only be used in case a global agreement is reached.

 

Instead of the alowng upload to addressspaces at the normal rom space of $800000, move it up to $804000. You wont be able to run any cart that way without painstakingly hacking the hell out of it. That is a lousy 32 k sacrifice. Thery is no need to run roms of even make it easy to do so other than being a pirate. Lets state it for what it is.

Wrong. There are legitimate reasons :

• Running protos
  
• Running public-domain ROMs
  
• Running images of games you own in cartridge form
  
• Using the JagCF as an Alpine substitute for cartridge game development
  

Edited September 29, 2007 by Zerosquare

[Atariboy]

"Why am I not suprised? Iwas quite convinced of your intentions.

You can afford a CF but not a Cybermorph cart for what..the

whole $5 dollars you can legitimately buy one for? Give me a

break! You can buy a lot of legally obtained games for the same

amount. The fact is you want all the games for as littel and no

matter how you get them."

 

I'm not interested in what you produce for the system to be honest. I've been quite clear this device is exciting for me because I'll be able to download roms for Atari releases and check games out. I own Cybermorph, sadly. I appreciated your time and donating (I believe) your proceeds from Gorf, but nothing more. I have no concerns emulating a 25 year old release that hasn't been touched by it's ip holders since before the crash.

 

The question is is downloading something like Cybermorph wrong? I think I'm safely alligned with the majority by saying no, judging by the popularity of similar devices for other systems and the roms posted at AtariAge and the popularity of emulators. I also think this community proves that such devices and abilities don't hurt homebrew authors who take their time and effort to develop for themselves and the community.

 

"Hey guy! Be my guest...develope some agmes and invest the time and effort if you feel

it's worht the trouble."

 

Maybe he's like me and isn't particularly concerned about the Jaguar homebrew community. You can be a Jaguar fan and only play titles released during it's lifetime and not drool over every possible release. Besides Songbird securing rights to release unreleased games developed during the Jaguar's lifespan, there hasn't been a lot of excitement there for me. We're excited at the prospects this will bring by bringing in fresh developers hopefully, but mostly for the ease it will give to playing the Jaguar's commercial library. I've not about to pay more than 5$ for a Jaguar game I'm concerned I wouldn't enjoy, and Jaguar games command higher prices usually. It's not about the ease of pirating the game Gorf, for me at least. I appreciate efforts by you and several others to develop for the community, but I don't really anticipate the final work since it just doesn't appeal to my taste.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Atariboy

[Bill Loguidice]

If I rent a videogame from Gamefly, Gamefly has purchased only a handful of copies that potentially dozens of people get to make use of. The game publisher sure doesn't benefit from that multiple. Do you see the point?

 

 

Good grief.. its not the same thing AT ALL.

If the games is RENTED its not KEPT its RENTED.. the person RENTING THE GAME DOES NOT KEEP THE GAME FOR GOOD... if they like it they may still BUY IT since they only RENTED IT... i.e. did not have a FREE COPY WHICH THEY KEPT but merely RENTED IT.

 

Do you see the point?

 

Do YOU see the point? People are playing a game when they rent it without remuneration going back to the author. Same thing with my library, book and author example. Who's to say that a pirate will play a game any more or less if they have it in their possession? So all of a sudden just having something means you're going to constantly get use out of it? So the pirated new homebrew Jaguar game is so amazing that the pirate is going to play the game constantly and give up his/her piratey ways and not move on to the next score as soon as it's released? And yeah, I'm sure there are a metric ton of pirates out there just waiting to rape the homebrew Jaguar community... Again, tell me that those 200 sales will be affected and then I'll see your point. You can't stop some pirating and in this case, who cares if maybe a dozen people are playing the game for "free"? That's the cost of entry. If you can't handle it, fine, don't release the damned product. It's not like it's a huge loss in the big picture anyway. It's not like there aren't dozens of other platforms to turn to and even new games on the Jaguar anyway. In discussing this, frankly, it's all a big deal over NOTHING....

[Atari_Owl]

If I rent a videogame from Gamefly, Gamefly has purchased only a handful of copies that potentially dozens of people get to make use of. The game publisher sure doesn't benefit from that multiple. Do you see the point?

 

 

Good grief.. its not the same thing AT ALL.

If the games is RENTED its not KEPT its RENTED.. the person RENTING THE GAME DOES NOT KEEP THE GAME FOR GOOD... if they like it they may still BUY IT since they only RENTED IT... i.e. did not have a FREE COPY WHICH THEY KEPT but merely RENTED IT.

 

Do you see the point?

 

Do YOU see the point? People are playing a game when they rent it without remuneration going back to the author. Same thing with my library, book and author example. Who's to say that a pirate will play a game any more or less if they have it in their possession? So all of a sudden just having something means you're going to constantly get use out of it? So the pirated new homebrew Jaguar game is so amazing that the pirate is going to play the game constantly and give up his/her piratey ways and not move on to the next score as soon as it's released? And yeah, I'm sure there are a metric ton of pirates out there just waiting to rape the homebrew Jaguar community... Again, tell me that those 200 sales will be affected and then I'll see your point. You can't stop some pirating and in this case, who cares if maybe a dozen people are playing the game for "free"? That's the cost of entry. If you can't handle it, fine, don't release the damned product. It's not like it's a huge loss in the big picture anyway. It's not like there aren't dozens of other platforms to turn to and even new games on the Jaguar anyway. In discussing this, frankly, it's all a big deal over NOTHING....

 

*I* see the point just fine... do YOU? Seriously, the response is REALLY weak.

 

1. SOME remuneration from a rented copy DOES go back to the author

2. The RENTED copy is only a taster unless one rents it over and over again ... but if one wanted to play the game that much one would probably BUY IT thus remuneration would go to the author.

3. frankly to compare a RENTED copy used for a few days to a PIRATED copy available whenever and whever one choses is deeply disingenuous.

 

 

But you know what... why don't you have the last word... i'm often finding it hard to give a sh|t about the Jag scene anymore. I only made the comment because it was such a BS comparison between piracy and libraries in the first place.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Atari_Owl

[Bill Loguidice]

If I rent a videogame from Gamefly, Gamefly has purchased only a handful of copies that potentially dozens of people get to make use of. The game publisher sure doesn't benefit from that multiple. Do you see the point?

 

 

Good grief.. its not the same thing AT ALL.

If the games is RENTED its not KEPT its RENTED.. the person RENTING THE GAME DOES NOT KEEP THE GAME FOR GOOD... if they like it they may still BUY IT since they only RENTED IT... i.e. did not have a FREE COPY WHICH THEY KEPT but merely RENTED IT.

 

Do you see the point?

 

Do YOU see the point? People are playing a game when they rent it without remuneration going back to the author. Same thing with my library, book and author example. Who's to say that a pirate will play a game any more or less if they have it in their possession? So all of a sudden just having something means you're going to constantly get use out of it? So the pirated new homebrew Jaguar game is so amazing that the pirate is going to play the game constantly and give up his/her piratey ways and not move on to the next score as soon as it's released? And yeah, I'm sure there are a metric ton of pirates out there just waiting to rape the homebrew Jaguar community... Again, tell me that those 200 sales will be affected and then I'll see your point. You can't stop some pirating and in this case, who cares if maybe a dozen people are playing the game for "free"? That's the cost of entry. If you can't handle it, fine, don't release the damned product. It's not like it's a huge loss in the big picture anyway. It's not like there aren't dozens of other platforms to turn to and even new games on the Jaguar anyway. In discussing this, frankly, it's all a big deal over NOTHING....

 

*I* see the point just fine... do YOU? Seriously, the response is REALLY weak.

 

1. SOME remuneration from a rented copy DOES go back to the author

2. The RENTED copy is only a taster unless one rents it over and over again ... but if one wanted to play the game that much one would probably BUY IT thus remuneration would go to the author.

3. frankly to compare a RENTED copy used for a few days to a PIRATED copy available whenever and whever one choses is deeply disingenuous.

 

 

But you know what... why don't you have the last word... i'm often finding it hard to give a sh|t about the Jag scene anymore. I only made the comment because it was such a BS comparison between piracy and libraries in the first place.

 

If you want to ignore the reality of what gets produced in the world at large and how compensation tends to be unfair re: usage, then that's fine. You can't possibly think that a pirate is going to go back to this hypothetical Jag homebrew time and again, putting more time into it than a typical renter would. Regardless, the comparison is valid, with the point being that one almost never, in any situation, gets "full" compensation for their output. Again, you and some of the others can ignore it all you want, but will the JagCF REALLY affect the maximum 200 people who would buy a new cartridge anyway? (most of that group do prefer boxed product, you know?) I doubt it. The maybe dozen people who would pirate it wouldn't have bought it anyway and likely would not play it more than once or twice before it went in their archives (as a "conquest") anyway. Who then really cares about them? You please the 200 people and yourself and then what happens to the property after that really shouldn't matter. You develop it, you put in protections, you release it, then it's out of your hands. Same deal for everyone. All this big talk and we're talking the tiniest of tiny percentages here, all the while ignoring the fact that other platforms THRIVE under such scenarios (hell, 75% of Atari 2600 homebrews are readily available as BINs on purpose, yet they STILL sell on cartridge). Your side is trying to make the argument based on the idea that an expensive JagCF will be purchased by all Jaguar users, many of whom don't even own the CD add-on, and then they will naturally want to pirate new games. It just makes no sense, just doesn't add up. If someone wants to deny the world of the next great Jaguar game, the ONLY people who are being hurt are the author and those maximum 200 buyers, otherwise no one else on the planet, save for maybe a dozen hypothetical pirates who would likely take it for a spin a few times at best before moving on, will care.

 

Indeed, this discussion is over since you only want to argue in black and white when the issues involve many shades of grey. It's not an either/or proposition. Stopping progress on the Jaguar for a few self-interests is just not something that makes sense to a lot of us. As for me, I'll probably support the JagCF if its in my price range and I'll certainly continue to purchase quality new Jaguar games when they're released. This silly discussion will then just be a distant memory.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Bill_Loguidice

[Atari_Owl]

If you want to ignore the reality ...

 

Indeed, this discussion is over since you only want to argue in black and white when the issues involve many shades of grey. It's not an either/or proposition. Stopping progress on the Jaguar for a few self-interests is just not something that makes sense to a lot of us. As for me, I'll probably support the JagCF if its in my price range and I'll certainly continue to purchase quality new Jaguar games when they're released. This silly discussion will then just be a distant memory.

 

Try to pigeon-hole to discount people's opinons if you want.

I just called you on a piss-poor comparison.

 

RENTED GAME != ILLEGALLY OBTAINED COPY OF GAME... no matter how you spin it or try to say its a shade of grey.

 

I didn't even specifically apply it to the particular object in the title of this thread... i just pointed out your comparison was bogus.

 

Anyway I'm bored now... please do have the REAL final word this time... I'm done.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Atari_Owl

[GT Turbo]

I got another pm's for supporting the JagCF, more and more people. We (Jagware) want to thanks all people for this great support.

 

 

GT

 

Edit : deleted screenshoot

Edited September 30, 2007 by GT Turbo

[EmOneGarand]

Some people told Jagware are pirates, but do you know where you can find Atari roms ? No ? Go on JSII !! A lot of roms for some machines see this screenshoot :

 

 

Yes i know it's Google ads, but you must know it's a little bit ironical don't you think ?

 

I got another pm's for supporting the JagCF, more and more people. We (Jagware) want to thanks all people for this great support.

 

 

GT

Are you serious?? Google ADs works like this, it reads through the text of the site and selects words, since Atari and games is a buzzword it's going to look for links for that.. do any normal search for games and your bound to get links to roms. Wheres the correlation?

Edited September 29, 2007 by EmOneGarand

[jaysmith2000]

Some people told Jagware are pirates, but do you know where you can find Atari roms ? No ? Go on JSII !! A lot of roms for some machines see this screenshoot :

 

 

Yes i know it's Google ads, but you must know it's a little bit ironical don't you think ?

 

I got another pm's for supporting the JagCF, more and more people. We (Jagware) want to thanks all people for this great support.

 

 

GT

 

I removed all Googleads from JSII for this reason. I had absolutely no control over what Googleads was pulling when I had it on there. There are absolutely NO ROMS posted on JSII and I would appreciate you refraining from saying so on here.

[Bill Loguidice]

I removed all Googleads from JSII for this reason. I had absolutely no control over what Googleads was pulling when I had it on there. There are absolutely NO ROMS posted on JSII and I would appreciate you refraining from saying so on here.

 

If you go to the Google Ads control panel, you can specify what types of ads you want and what you want to block (like competitors). You should try that first, then remove it if you still don't like what it's polling. No reason to lose ad revenue if you don't have to...

[spiffyone]

Yes, I can see your wonderful point, that the easy availability of Activision ROMs and emulators for every system and device imaginable has dramatically cut into the sales of new official Activision Atari 2600 game compilations for modern platforms. I'm sure Activision would have sold 10 bazillion instead of the millions they actually did if those pesky pirates didn't ruin everything... And don't get me started on those failed Activision TV Game devices, which surely would have sold more than a paltry few million units if the ROMs weren't EVERYWERE...

 

Yeah, and I can see your wonderful point as well.

 

All of a sudden trying to make sure that you can make the most possible on your product is silly.

 

Yep.

 

We don't live in a capitalist society where maximizing revenue doesn't come into play at all.

 

No sir.

 

Doesn't happen.

 

And we should all begrudge those who wish to sell the most possible rather than settle for selling what they can while having the rest swiped and not trying to fight having their stuff swiped.

 

Sure.

 

They should lie down and do nothing and just accept their fate.

 

Like Garriott, who you mentioned earlier. Yep. No anti piracy routines on any of his games for Origin. Nope. There wasn't any attempt to at least slow down the piracy enough to ensure more sales for a time after release. Nope. Not at all.

 

In your world, the producers are silly because they already made millions and wishing to ensure that they make millions more, as much as they can, rather than make less than they can if they just allow piracy rather than take active steps against it is just...what..."wrong"?

 

Again, socialism, on the whole, doesn't work. Marx was an idiot. Artists do not do things, never have, for the sheer love of "getting it out there". Not in this world. It's a big part of it, sure...but it ain't the only part. I'm sure you're writing your book, hoping it'll be successful on some level so that the next book, if there is one, has bigger returns. Because, y'know what, if you really want to be a writer, then that's what you want to do for a living, for a life. Not work a 9 to 5. Not be a slave to the grind. Not be in an office all day, or doing inventory or slaving over code, unless you want to. Otherwise you'd rather the nice advance, and the residuals from the sales of the books that you may write in the future and not have to really worry about doing stuff that doesn't involve your art and you don't wish to do. That's the game. That's the drive. That's the motivation. To make as much as possible to ensure you can you can continue to do what you love.

 

I agree with you that developing for a "dead" console as an indy/hobbyist dev team doesn't carry with it enough to make drastic profits. Maybe (big maybe) enough to pull even, maybe (bigger maybe) enough to get a little chingle change. But on a whole, why should we begrudge the idea of making as much as possible, and actively combating piracy? Yeah, it'll always be there...but you fight it to make sure that you get as much as possible for your work in the face of it. There's not one thing silly about that.

 

Seriously: "Oh, damn, they sold 5 million instead of 8 million because of piracy" in a sarcastic tone is absolutely silly thinking. If you're a producer of a product, then you want to maximize the amount you can sell. You want to cut into that 3 million that are pirated. You want to make it at the very least difficult enough that the majority of possible consumers doesn't think about it, or can't pull it off. There will always be diehard pirates. But you can at least ensure that the casuals find pirating more difficult than it's worth. Because, again, if they're interested in a product, then they are potential consumers of that product. If the "free" price is gone, if piracy is made more difficult for those casual pirates who only do it if it's easy, they are more apt to make a legit purchase to satisfy their desire for that product.

[spiffyone]

(Bill_Loguidice @ Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:21 AM)

Yeah, I have to agree with that too. I know of no other platform, including Atari platforms, that have put up such a fuss over the possibility - the user option side effect if you will - of playing ROMs on the system.

 

Dreamcast community.

 

Just FYI on that one.

 

It's a semi sore spot.

 

The indy community understands that cracking the system to play games off of CD-Rs was necessary to even have an indy scene (due to DC using proprietary GD-ROMs for games), but the whole burning commercially released games onto CD-R thing, which was in fact part of the reason Dreamcast was killed off by Sega (they needed every last red cent off of software sales they could muster, and piracy made that impossible)

 

Sorry that's wrong, see the last post of this page : http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...5559&st=125

 

What? This?

 

Piracy never killed the DC. Software sales were excellent in US & Europe (Japan gamers don't pirate that much). Even when Sega canned the DC and when Big Ben took the distribution in Europe, they were surprised by the excellent sales : 2x more they were expecting for most titles. Without these performances, we would not have seen the last titles released.

 

If you want the real reason, I suggest you to have a look at the top head of the company : who died, and who had the power next. And a serious look at last DCs Christmas sales vs PS2 (hardware).

 

 

Nope. Sorry, I'm right.

 

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-index.php...aBase+Dreamcast

 

Specifically:

 

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-index.php...se+Dreamcast+p6

 

Read and learn.

 

Software sales were not good. That's why 3rd parties started pulling out. And a big part of that was due to the ease of piracy.

 

All one needed to do was put in a CD-R. Didn't even need to mod the console. Nothing easier than that.

 

There was a drastic drop in software sales in the US specifically, DC's strongest market, from the '99 launch to early spring '00 when the pirates struck and made it so easy. Software sales weren't mindblowing for 3rd parties to begin with compared to Sega's own games, but the piracy just made it worse for all.

 

And what about DC sales vs. PS2 sales during that last holiday season (Holiday 2000, before the Jan. 2001 announcement that they were pulling the plug)?

 

They outsold PS2 that holiday. PS2 was suffering shortages. Sega's sales went up almost 200% from months earlier. You do know that, don't you?

 

They missed their projections, of course, by about 1/3, iirc. But they killed it off in spite of those sales gains. The software wasn't selling, the CEO you wrote of had made it known it was to be Sega's last console (way to instill confidence in 3rd parties and consumers >_>), and the biggest reason was that Sega didn't have the financial strength to keep up the fight due to the massive debt they suffered due to their own incompetence during the early Saturn days.

 

But piracy was a part of why DC was killed off. I never stated it was the only reason. Just a part.

[spiffyone]

(Bill_Loguidice @ Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:27 PM)

 

The maybe dozen people who would pirate it wouldn't have bought it anyway

 

Actually, without piracy, or if piracy was harder than obtaining the legal product, then those people are more likely to purchase the legit product.

 

Why?

 

Once again:

 

Once you have a desire for a product, you are a potential consumer of the product.

 

That's what advertising is all about. Trying to instill desire for that particular product being advertised among the sea of consumers out there. Whatever number of consumers out there become attracted to the product, have a desire for the product, become potential consumers for that product.

 

Again, the want is there. All they need do is buy.

 

Piracy circumvents that. If someone is going through the trouble of pirating a good, that means they have a desire for the product. They are a potential consumer of that product. Unfortunately, because they have pirated, their desire is fulfilled without a purchase taking place. They've gotten the product that they desire for the lowest possible price..."free" (notice the quotation marks...nothing is ever truly free). All without buying the legit product. Their desire for the product is fulfilled.

 

Although simply having a desire doesn't mean that they are sure to buy the product, it does make them more likely to buy the product if there is no other means of obtaining it. Piracy is another way of obtaining a product, and a way to obtain it at a lower price (the lowest possible price, in fact). Again, having a desire doesn't mean that you will buy the product, but it does mean that you are more likely to buy the product than someone with no desire for it whatsoever. And people who pirate a particular good are already showing a desire to possess the product. Otherwise, why pirate it in the first place? If piracy weren't there, or if it were made more difficult, then the number of possible consumers of the product turning into actual consumers of the product is bound to increase, because there is no other way to fulfill their desire for the product than to buy it. Doesn't mean that they all will buy it, but it makes it all the more likely.

 

Your statements thus far, concerning piracy as a whole (not just this JagCF business, some of which I partially agree with you on) are simply the same things that pirates state when they make a sorry attempt to "defend" themselves and their actions, and it falls flat on its face every single time. It shows absolutely no grasp of the principles of economics, business, marketing, etc. None whatsoever.

Edited September 29, 2007 by spiffyone

[Tursi]

Software sales were not good. That's why 3rd parties started pulling out. And a big part of that was due to the ease of piracy.

(...)

But piracy was a part of why DC was killed off. I never stated it was the only reason. Just a part.

 

This was partially confirmed by conversations with the DC Homebrew community by VPs at SoA before the plug was completely pulled, btw. Piracy was a definate factor. There was no way to correct the issue with the huge number of units already in the market - sure, they could release a new console that locked out CDRs, but the Dreamcast's commercial lifespan was already approaching half-way and saturation would never be reached.

 

GOAT Store's newer DC releases are currently being pirated left and right. Some of the sites *are* respectful enough to pull them when approached, some are not.