JagCF last news before the before the launch of final proto.

[Gorf]

EDIT: HOLY CRAP. Someone just pointed out to me that in another forum that folks are actually discussing the merits of slapping developers with 'cease and desist' orders and forming a governing body to rule over those who would dare develop hardware/software for the Jag. Are you people kidding me? Do any of you have any perspective at all about the modern day situation of the Jag, a system who statistically zero percent of the population gives a shit about in the first place? I've got a great idea, how about amassing a fund to buy up all the Jags that remain in the world - that way you can really be King Turd of Shit Mountain and make sure nobody ever does anything with a Jag that you might disapprove of.

 

 

This has nothing to do with me. Im not looking to control anyone. I simply want to protect my interests.

Jagware can release all the devices they want, but I dont have to released gamesif I dont want. You want

to spend months at a time making games and NOT getting anything in return for it, then be my guest, but

don't tell anyone they cant. Stop using silly posts from other people on other forums to takes swipes at me.

[Gorf]

the initial question was : How do you estimate the fans numbers ?

you need facts for this, if not, don't speak

 

It dont take sales figures to know that the fan base of the Jaguar is

no where near the size of most other classic consoles in fan numbers.

They only manufactured only 250,000 units of Jaguar and sold only

about 150,000 of those units but lets through thes ein anyway.

 

The CD was only 20,000. Do the math.

 

Here some more numbers...

 

http://www.uvlist.net/platforms/detail/15-Master+System

 

2600

40,000,000 million units.

SMS

13,000,000million units.

Lynx

2,000,000 million units.

Jaguar

150,000 million units.

 

 

Im sure these are close what ever your choice of numbers sources.

 

There are your numbers. I doubt even 10 percent of the Jaguars are in use today.

Get the picture yet?

 

 

 

Are you serious ? You estimate the fan numbers with the sales of systems 10 or 15 years ago ?

 

 

Um the Jaguar is over 13 years old so It applies perfectly. Like I said

no numbers will matter. You will find a way to shoot it down.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Gorf

[Gorf]

Several of our games are ready. We just want to get our moeny back from them.

We sell games in a game package, not for download. It costs me money. I have

to reflect that cost on the customer when he buys these. I want to be sure I get

back what I put into, and quite frankly I have every right to do what I see fit to

protect. Mutlicarts may be your way of life, but they aren't ours. I dont own a

single such cart.

 

Right off the bat you made a mistake if you intended to run a sustainable business making games for the Jaguar. There aren't a lot of companies in this entire classic game scene pulling down enough cash to make somebody an honest living. I've got to imagine most are doing it on the side more for fun than anything else.

 

 

Where did I say ANYWHERE that Im trying to run a business of Jaguar games? I simply am saying for the millionth

time, I put out games in packaging. That packaging cost US money. I need to make that money back or I dont waste

by time. I code my Jag for fun. I know I wont pay bills or send my kids to college. My goal is not to get rich of jagaur fans.

Again, See Carl from Songbird. He sells games at almost twice what a normal cart costs. He claims it is to cover costs

yet everyone thinks he's a hero. I sell games to cover cost and my price of Gorf is clear evidence,and I hear a never

ending tie raid beacsue I want to make sure no one copies it. This is just retarded.

[Gorf]

Yes Pocket,

 

gorf is serious, in 2007 you can even live from making Jaguar games !!

 

 

 

GT

I know you dont like the stance I take against your pirate device but you dont have to post utter bullshit.

Show me ONE post where I even implied this. You'd never post this on JSII beause you are a coward.

[Gorf]

oh sorry you need respect of course, and don't I ?

 

Respect is earned. Every post you've ever made has been some shot at me.

HOw could I or anyone every respect that?

[Gorf]

u don't care if nobody on here buys your game? i don't believe that.

 

So , that is nothing new. You dont beleive anything unless it's your 'opinion' never once based or backed wth FACTS.

I DO NOT CARE if you buy my games. I dont trust you so it all the better you do'nt get my games. You argue on the

side of thieves and pruiates and therfore I put you in there catagorey as well and unfortunately a lot of you clowns

around here. Im not here to make a living like Ive said but at the same time, If I shell out to make a profeesional

looking package, I intend to get AT LEAST what I put out for it and more if possible. I deserve it. I worked for it

and I could not give a good damn who does or doesn't like it. Certainly not in a homebrew community where it

seems half the people are thieves anyway. I write these games for MY pleasure. I sel them at the request of honest

loyal fans and not grubbing little copiers.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Gorf

[Gorf]

Are you serious ? You estimate the fan numbers with the sales of systems 10 or 15 years ago ?

 

He's just saying that a platform which sold more units is likely to retain a larger usebase when it hits orphanhood, which is common sense.

 

 

This is only theory, you have many systems wich sold many more units than others, and have smaller fanbases behind.

 

I could also talk about GP32 or GP2X systems, wich had very low sales (if you compare them with other systems), and huge communities behind them.

 

Com on guys, just look at the software sales from *today* if you want real facts.

 

 

Not concerning a dead system. You cant be to bright if you beleive this.

[Gorf]

EDIT: HOLY CRAP. Someone just pointed out to me that in another forum that folks are actually discussing the merits of slapping developers with 'cease and desist' orders and forming a governing body to rule over those who would dare develop hardware/software for the Jag. Are you people kidding me? Do any of you have any perspective at all about the modern day situation of the Jag, a system who statistically zero percent of the population gives a shit about in the first place? I've got a great idea, how about amassing a fund to buy up all the Jags that remain in the world - that way you can really be King Turd of Shit Mountain and make sure nobody ever does anything with a Jag that you might disapprove of.

 

 

This has nothing to do with me. Im not looking to control anyone. I simply want to protect my interests.

Jagware can release all the devices they want, but I dont have to released gamesif I dont want. You want

to spend months at a time making games and NOT getting anything in return for it, then be my guest, but

don't tell anyone they cant. Stop using silly posts from other people on other forums to takes swipes at me.

 

 

Oh and RW...if the JAguar community is so horrible, hwy do you stick around? Just to get off you snide remarks?

I see no other value to your posts other than to take pot shots at me ond other developers who wont give you

free games.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Gorf

[mariaud]

oh sorry you need respect of course, and don't I ?

 

Respect is earned. Every post you've ever made has been some shot at me.

HOw could I or anyone every respect that?

 

what a joke, so you're a victim ? I don't have "shot at you", I was just asking for clarifications about your assertions. I supposed that, thanks to your position (CEO of a homebrew company), you have made something like a market research report. too bad

[Gorf]

oh sorry you need respect of course, and don't I ?

 

Respect is earned. Every post you've ever made has been some shot at me.

HOw could I or anyone every respect that?

 

what a joke, so you're a victim ? I don't have "shot at you", I was just asking for clarifications about your assertions. I supposed that, thanks to your position (CEO of a homebrew company), you have made something like a market research report. too bad

 

Every post you make has a clear intention. To attack me. Why lie like you are innocent.

Im a victum of your never ending crusade to justify your stealing of other peoples property.

I know you are not a designer in Jagware but you are certainly a follower. I come her and

I fight my own battles...I dont sick my friends on any of you. I do need them really.

 

But No, I do't consider myself a victim. I dont know how else I could explain what I've already explained to you. It's not my fault you dont understand that the Jag bas is a lot smaller than

other supported systems. and quiet frankly, Im done trying because its all moot. I wont release

any games for the Jaguar until IM satisfied they will be safe.

 

You have a problem with this becasue you think software should be free. Whomever

thought this was a smart idea had to have been some drunken socialist. Had to be.

[Pocket]

the initial question was : How do you estimate the fans numbers ?

you need facts for this, if not, don't speak

 

It dont take sales figures to know that the fan base of the Jaguar is

no where near the size of most other classic consoles in fan numbers.

They only manufactured only 250,000 units of Jaguar and sold only

about 150,000 of those units but lets through thes ein anyway.

 

The CD was only 20,000. Do the math.

 

Here some more numbers...

 

http://www.uvlist.net/platforms/detail/15-Master+System

 

2600

40,000,000 million units.

SMS

13,000,000million units.

Lynx

2,000,000 million units.

Jaguar

150,000 million units.

 

 

Im sure these are close what ever your choice of numbers sources.

 

There are your numbers. I doubt even 10 percent of the Jaguars are in use today.

Get the picture yet?

 

 

 

Are you serious ? You estimate the fan numbers with the sales of systems 10 or 15 years ago ?

 

 

Um the Jaguar is over 13 years old so It applies perfectly. Like I said

no numbers will matter. You will find a way to shoot it down.

 

The goal is not to shoot down what you've said. I'm saying I don't agree with your way to "evaluate" the fanbase of systems.

 

That's why I said the Lynx fanbase is smaller than the Jaguar one, looking at the sales of several commercial releases.

[GT Turbo]

You'd never post this on JSII beause you are a coward.

 

Yes i'm a big coward or perhaps because i have enough of trolls by our fan club, especially people like t2kfreeker who know only one thing, insulting me ( http://jaysmith2000.ipbhost.com/index.php?...st&p=214127 )

 

I'm always waiting for metroblaster, but i think Deranged_Desperado was right, it's a vaporware and a lot of people think the same thing ( http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...p;#entry1110717 ) he isn't be able to do something else than following you.....

 

When t2kfreeker will give something REAL to the Atari community, at this time only, i will be ok for talking with him but for now, forget that.

 

Instead fighting the JagCF, you haven't code to done ? Or perhaps working on the Jag II ? Or perhaps this is vaporware too... About that i think you've got the rights to use the old work of Atari..... Or perhaps this is public domain.....

 

 

 

 

 

GT Turbo

[mariaud]

Every post you make has a clear intention. To attack me. Why lie like you are innocent.

Im a victum of your never ending crusade to justify your stealing of other peoples property.

I know you are not a designer in Jagware but you are certainly a follower. I come her and

I fight my own battles...I dont sick my friends on any of you. I do need them really.

 

But No, I do't consider myself a victim. I dont know how else I could explain what I've already explained to you. It's not my fault you dont understand that the Jag bas is a lot smaller than

other supported systems. and quiet frankly, Im done trying because its all moot. I wont release

any games for the Jaguar until IM satisfied they will be safe.

 

You have a problem with this becasue you think software should be free. Whomever

thought this was a smart idea had to have been some drunken socialist. Had to be.

- clear intention or paranoia ? pff , You come here to spread bullshits, go and play on your playground. You're fan-base is not the jaguar one.

- so I'm a pirate, a lyer, what will be next, unfaithfull ?

- not a follower, but just guess that the CF for jaguar is best things happened to jaguar since the Battlesphere release

- concerning your safety, you should stop then your devs on any kind of support , this is the solution

[Gorf]

Every post you make has a clear intention. To attack me. Why lie like you are innocent.

Im a victum of your never ending crusade to justify your stealing of other peoples property.

I know you are not a designer in Jagware but you are certainly a follower. I come her and

I fight my own battles...I dont sick my friends on any of you. I do need them really.

 

But No, I do't consider myself a victim. I dont know how else I could explain what I've already explained to you. It's not my fault you dont understand that the Jag bas is a lot smaller than

other supported systems. and quiet frankly, Im done trying because its all moot. I wont release

any games for the Jaguar until IM satisfied they will be safe.

 

You have a problem with this becasue you think software should be free. Whomever

thought this was a smart idea had to have been some drunken socialist. Had to be.

- clear intention or paranoia ? pff , You come here to spread bullshits, go and play on your playground. You're fan-base is not the jaguar one.

- so I'm a pirate, a lyer, what will be next, unfaithfull ?

- not a follower, but just guess that the CF for jaguar is best things happened to jaguar since the Battlesphere release

- concerning your safety, you should stop then your devs on any kind of support , this is the solution

 

Whatever boss. You do things your way and I'll do things mine.

[mariaud]

Whatever boss. You do things your way and I'll do things mine.

 

it's true, no issue

[Gorf]

You'd never post this on JSII beause you are a coward.

 

Yes i'm a big coward or perhaps because i have enough of trolls by our fan club, especially people like t2kfreeker who know only one thing, insulting me ( http://jaysmith2000.ipbhost.com/index.php?...st&p=214127 )

 

I'm always waiting for metroblaster, but i think Deranged_Desperado was right, it's a vaporware and a lot of people think the same thing ( http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...p;#entry1110717 ) he isn't be able to do something else than following you.....

 

When t2kfreeker will give something REAL to the Atari community, at this time only, i will be ok for talking with him but for now, forget that.

 

Instead fighting the JagCF, you haven't code to done ? Or perhaps working on the Jag II ? Or perhaps this is vaporware too... About that i think you've got the rights to use the old work of Atari..... Or perhaps this is public domain.....

 

 

 

 

 

GT Turbo

 

 

 

Freeker has nothing to do with me. He does wht he does on his own. I dont see what this has to do with anything.

He is certainly not an agent of mine. I have two partners. Terance Williams and Scott Walters. You never see anything

from them. They tend to lurk these forums moer than anything. If anyone else chimes in on my behalf, its by their

own decision. Im gald to have them, but I certainly do not need them do defend myself and my stance against the

likes of you guys.

[Gorf]

Whatever boss. You do things your way and I'll do things mine.

 

it's true, no issue

 

Im not trying to make it one either. Just letting everyone know what to expect from my side as some were interested to know.

If you care, fine. If you dont, whatever.

[Gorf]

The goal is not to shoot down what you've said. I'm saying I don't agree with your way to "evaluate" the fanbase of systems.

 

And that's fine but it does not change the info I have based on my experiences and from others whom haev been there.

I CANT tell you everything as I've been asked not to. Im not the only one in 3DSSS and our affiliates and others have

given us info that tells us there is little return if any with jaguar sales. Also remember, sals of units never describe the size

of any given consoles after market but it certainly shows that it is smaller in comaprison. Jaguar is no longer a viable

mainstream market and the interest will essentially remain with the current base and possibly a few add-ons over time.

The 2600, yes a much older system but Im sure many here can vouch for the fact that its ACTIVE fan base is significantly

larger than anything the jaguar can ever hope to be. The Jaguar fan base is certainly loyal but it's not very big.

I've been told by the 3 or four guys that have released products in the last few years not to expect much more than about

250 sales TOPS. Gorf proved that to be true. We came no where near this.

 

That's why I said the Lynx fanbase is smaller than the Jaguar one, looking at the sales of several commercial releases.

 

 

Its smaller but it 's also a lot cheaper. The ROMS for the JAgur are not cheap. I've been told that a cart will cost

between $25 and $35 dollars to make depending on the size and how good you are at finding good prices on

these chips. We are using surpluss shells to avoid yet evn higher cost producing new shells. A few thousand wont

cost you so much, but a few hundered...heh...your lucky if you can find amolder willing to bother for that many.

If he will its, going to cost big.

 

Now this cost does not count what I have to pay someone to put these together and in a package.

Im sure the lynx cart are mcuh cheaper to make than Jaguar carts are. Lynx is a dream to code for

from what I've been told. JAgaur is an utter nightmare when you code it like I do. Main code is a

hand assembled code and i's gladly trade it for the ease of deving on a Lynx anyday if it were

possible. Unfortunately it's not.

 

You cant make a living in the jaguar community and Im certainly not looking to. But at the same

Time the effort is just to great to do it for nothing. Sorry.

[Fadest]

I've been told by the 3 or four guys that have released products in the last few years not to expect much more than about

250 sales TOPS. Gorf proved that to be true. We came no where near this.

From what I have been told, now, 100 sales is a very good success on Lynx... And it probably decline sover years, as long as fans are leaving.

Now, it depends on the software for sure, Alpine Games is a must, I hope they selled far more than 100.

Il also depends if people want new software. I'm not sure than GNES fans are wanting new soft more than Jaguar fans (on of the community where expectations from fan for new software is at a high point)

 

So the Lynx market is maybe half of the Jaguar market.

[Gorf]

I've been told by the 3 or four guys that have released products in the last few years not to expect much more than about

250 sales TOPS. Gorf proved that to be true. We came no where near this.

From what I have been told, now, 100 sales is a very good success on Lynx... And it probably decline sover years, as long as fans are leaving.

Now, it depends on the software for sure, Alpine Games is a must, I hope they selled far more than 100.

Il also depends if people want new software. I'm not sure than GNES fans are wanting new soft more than Jaguar fans (on of the community where expectations from fan for new software is at a high point)

 

So the Lynx market is maybe half of the Jaguar market.

 

 

The point is the numbers are too low for the cost of a Jaguar cart. Cd's dont cover everyone

in the fan base. A lot of regulares I know still dont have one and would rather have carts anyway.

Cd's are certainly cheaper and easier but they dont serve everyone who wants the game.

IT was a big complaint that we did not offer a cart version of Gorf.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Gorf

[Fadest]

Here are the informations I got on Lynx market 2 years ago :

A good game can sell 75-100 cartridges the first year, and will probably never sell more than 200 cartridges over the years.

So, if you want to get your money back (this is common rule, applying to Jaguar cartridge or CD and Lynx), there are only 2 solutions :

- make small batch (50 or 75) and normal price, you will sell all of them fortunately, but some people will complain thay couldn't have one

- make a bigger batch (200) so everyone will be able to get one, but you will have to set an higher price, because you will have some remaining stock (depending on how the game is received by fans)

 

Of course, you can mix the 2 : make small batches after small batches, but the cost will be higher...

 

This also apply to hardware like Jag CF.

 

There is no unique solution, my opinion is that, once the developper choosed how he wants to put his game on the market, we should deal with his position, instead of the usual bashing occuring nearly every time.

 

Now, concerning piracy and market size, you know you will be able to protect your work (I gave many options in my previous posts). I understand your concern, and I understand you don't want to move until having more information.

But please everyone, don't be oversensitive, there is allways a solution with common sense, and no solution with fight. Yes, I even have a nice solution to prevent people to run unauthorized version of BattleSphere on Jag CF, but I know this will probably never happen.

 

IT was a big complaint that we did not offer a cart version of Gorf.

I would have consider buying a cart version of Gorf, I did not buy the CD version, because I have no CD. A Gorf CD for me would only have been a collectible item, and taking it from someone who would have been able to play it.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Fadest

[thomasholzer]

Gorf CD:

 

[+remowilliams]

Oh and RW...if the JAguar community is so horrible, hwy do you stick around? Just to get off you snide remarks?

 

I purposely stay on the very periphery and I'm still utterly disgusted by most of what goes on. I'm a classic gamer collector with over 100 machines and thousands of games, and an Atari fan so that explains why I still care enough.

 

I see no other value to your posts other than to take pot shots at me ond other developers who wont give you

free games.

Yes, I'm a leech and a pirate. LOL

 

 

I am a big proponent of supporting devs big and small who make what I like to play. I've even purchased some things more than once, and even further than that have donated to people across the retro community who haven't even ever asked for money, just to thank them for their efforts. I'm not saying that everyone is like me, but everyone who wants a muticart/flashcart isn't a pirate. I've got eight such devices sitting right in my view right at this moment (yes even one for the Jag), and I still own thousands of games. Anyone who gives a shit enough to actually own these old systems and be an enthusiast is also likely going to BUY what they enjoy. And sure there will be people who won't buy a release, but those people probably weren't going to buy it if a flashcart existed or not.

 

While everyone isn't me, these things aren't mutually exclusive. Stop automatically labeling everyone who might want such a device a pirate, and stop calling the CF a 'pirate' device. It's inherently no more a pirate device than my DVD burner.

Edited October 8, 2007 by remowilliams

[+remowilliams]

You cant make a living in the jaguar community and Im certainly not looking to. But at the same

Time the effort is just to great to do it for nothing. Sorry.

Gorf - you're a very talented guy and the work you put into your stuff deserves more compensation then you will ever get. And any somewhat rational person knows you're not going to make anything resembling true compensation by developing in most classic markets, especially the Jag. You may not even break even on costs.

 

So if you're going to do it, you have to be doing it for the love of the system and the gratification of fans enjoying your work.

 

If you take the stance that most/all of your prospective audience are ungrateful pirates just waiting to rip you off and that the 'community' at large has to be held in check and forced into honesty by a lack of options - then hell, you might as well throw in the towel now.

[potatohead]

It's a turn off for sure.

 

I own a jag. Thought about adding some items to it, but there was always something different about it. I think this is part of why. Never could put my finger on it. This thread opened that up a bit for me.

 

Any of us enjoying these systems are doing it for the love of the art, nothing else. Why not get out there and get people involved? I see games released all the time, in many forms. At the end of the day, said games get played, people talk about them and their creators feel good about that.

 

I do not currently own any multi-device. For me, it's either emulation, or an actual physical purchase. Often it's just watching what happens and following developments. Looking back, it's just amazing the things that come from these classic machines. Damn cool stuff.

 

Can't see it, unless it's out there, can we?

 

If you want your props, you can get them you know. "Making back your investment" absolutely has to mean more than dollars. Making back your costs is defensible and doable.

 

Heck, post up a progress meter. "Only 5 more media distributions to sell before releasing something that works in a multi-cart." No biggie, make a contest of it. Pack in some goodies with a few of the carts. Number the things, sign some, whatever it takes to get people thinking about it on that level. There are lots of options that bring people in, create that fun spark, that don't alienate. Those are the ones that keep things moving. It's a small thing, but very important. There are not that many people really willing to spend on an old system. That's just reality.

 

When I read, "I've got this killer game, but you losers better pony up, or else!" kind of thing, it just sucks. There are leeches everywhere. They are not going away and they are not a factor. Why?

 

BECAUSE THEY ARE LEECHES. (And I personally don't care.)

 

The people that matter, that do buy stuff to support the hobby are the important ones. They need to feel welcome, part of something, or at the least appreciated. It's a great experience buying a home brew game, playing it, then sending a note off to the author! This is as sweet as it was playing each others games as kids. Feed your soul man, get your props, whatever it takes, but make damn sure those you are writing for feel good about the whole thing too, otherwise you may find yourself writing for yourself, and that's gonna suck more than some people playing your game on a multi-device.

 

Heck, if they are playing it, maybe they will talk about it! Doesn't that mean something?