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JagCF last news before the before the launch of final proto.

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But why are all of you same people bitching at me? Because I dare try to protect my interests which

will ultimately hopefully save you all money? But im a bad guy?

Because of your approach. Your wanting to protect your interests is your responcibility, no one elses.

 

You complain about the JagCF because it would allow downloaded roms to be played, but when it gets right down to it, they don't owe you anything with regards to preventing that.

 

You are the one who has worked yourself up over what you THINK MIGHT happen and how it MIGHT effect you.

 

Which is the same BS the music industry said about home cassette recorders, and later CD burners. And that the movie industry said about VCR's and later DVD burners. Do you own any of those devices? Are you a music/video pirate?

 

They and their hardware is NOT the problem, the problem is criminals with criminal intent. If we were to seriously consider your self serving fear of might & maybe, then everything ever developed in the history of man kind is inherently evil. From sharpened sticks to the horse & buggie to the internet.

 

Your focus should be the criminals, not the tools they criminaly misuse. One way is developing customer desireable alternatives that would make piracy less appealing. Again, both the music and video industries have been doing this successfully. Or, if you wish to continue to be up in arms about it, by all means, continue with your security chip design, which I'm sure is perfectly acceptable to everyone. Honestly, if you ask me, that's a more logical approach anyways as it makes you responcibile for protecting you own IP instead of trying to make others responcibile for doing it for you.

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Your focus should be the criminals, not the tools they criminaly misuse.

 

I agree and has been my issue. The device is just a tool. Like a gun.

The trouble with it are the suporters that find perfectly ok to make copies.

Im not talking those average gamers or collectors. I know you are not

a dishonest person becasue I do not think you have gone out of your

way to defend on either side. In fact I tend NOT to disagree with most of

what you say. Contrary to popular opinion, just because my words dont

satisfy your need to hear it, I do indeed listen to everything everyone tells

me. I do understand how homebrew works and how yes you can expect a

lot of loyal fans to help cover, but at the same time, it does not mean

I have to stand by and watch others screw me. I do things on principal.

If it were money, I would definitely NOT be wasting my time with the Jaguar.

 

One way is developing customer desireable alternatives that would make piracy less appealing. Again, both the music and video industries have been doing this successfully. Or, if you wish to continue to be up in arms about it, by all means, continue with your security chip design, which I'm sure is perfectly acceptable to everyone. Honestly, if you ask me, that's a more logical approach anyways as it makes you responcibile for protecting you own IP instead of trying to make others responcibile for doing it for you.

 

The funny thing is you think Im up in arms. Im not at all up in arms but im not going to

stand around and have folks tell me im not in the right or I'm unrealistic. Maybe in some

waysI am but I'm still going to do what I can to ensure myself of protection. I was never

waiting on Jagware to do this. the ONLY thing I was hoping from them is they'd come

around and do it on their own. The fact is, they could very well keep the ROM functions

in there. They could always store checksums of the old ROMS and reject any new checksums

so folks wont be able to take advantage of new titles. there are plenty of ways to make

everyone happy.

 

They dont want to so I will have to add cost now to the game but thankfully it does not

look like a significant increase. I can take care of myself but it dont mena I wont expect

a little responsibility from the otherside.

 

This whole time I've bitched at the people whom blatently admit it

for the most part. Im not blaming the casual gamer who I fully understand theri interest

in the device. Then there are those who are making it it a clear as a bell they completely

intend to do that which is not right. I have not poted other damning evidence here as Im

really not looking to agrue. But at the same time, Im not going to have you tell me Im

crazy becasue I protect my interest.

 

You want to know what my problem really is? I dont pull punches. People tend to get ugly

when they see my form of upfrontery, odacity, nerve, balls, whathaveyou. I have

come to expect it and I dont intend to change. I cant help it if people over interpret

me or find me brazen....I am who I am...Im harmless but Im not defenseless.

 

The CF has great potential to be a nice add-on. I for one would blow off the extra

processor because I feel there is plenty of power left in the Jaguar. This could be

a nice replacement for the Alpine. Just make it safe and you 'll have even more support and more developers making it more interesting.

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This is it for me. I honestly saw the subject header and thought, "Hey, maybe I'll get something for the Jag!" It's been a while, and I like the thing. Always did.

 

[deleted --it's not worth it.]

Edited by potatohead

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If you are so down on the AJguar and the community why do you keep cpming back?
But I'm not leaving - I'm just putting more time into other, more sedate consoles while I watch the Jaguar train wreck. :D

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Your focus should be the criminals, not the tools they criminaly misuse.

 

I agree and has been my issue. The device is just a tool. Like a gun.

Well, if you think that analogies with tapes, VCS, audio CD recorder is out of subject because the market is different, then using analogies with guns, knives, murders, raping like I have read many times the last years is REALLY out of subject ;)

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The goal is not to shoot down what you've said. I'm saying I don't agree with your way to "evaluate" the fanbase of systems.

 

And that's fine but it does not change the info I have based on my experiences and from others whom haev been there.

I CANT tell you everything as I've been asked not to. Im not the only one in 3DSSS and our affiliates and others have

given us info that tells us there is little return if any with jaguar sales. Also remember, sals of units never describe the size

of any given consoles after market but it certainly shows that it is smaller in comaprison. Jaguar is no longer a viable

mainstream market and the interest will essentially remain with the current base and possibly a few add-ons over time.

The 2600, yes a much older system but Im sure many here can vouch for the fact that its ACTIVE fan base is significantly

larger than anything the jaguar can ever hope to be. The Jaguar fan base is certainly loyal but it's not very big.

I've been told by the 3 or four guys that have released products in the last few years not to expect much more than about

250 sales TOPS. Gorf proved that to be true. We came no where near this.

 

That's why I said the Lynx fanbase is smaller than the Jaguar one, looking at the sales of several commercial releases.

 

 

Its smaller but it 's also a lot cheaper.

 

So all this text to finally admit you agree with me ? :|

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... murders, raping like I have read many times the last years is REALLY out of subject ;)

 

seriously ? :|

 

Seriously. There is one guy wich need to take some pills. You can add to this "criminals".

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So all this text to finally admit you agree with me ? :|

 

 

I dont thing we completely agree.

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Nobody is really gonna care if you do your best to make the most you can on your games. I would expect no less. However, there are boundaries and you sir, have stepped on a lot of them, impacting others for self-serving reasons. Again, that's just not "cool". Maybe in a few years, I'll have that thought again. Really wish I hadn't seen this mess, but I have and it sucks.

 

 

All this is just the same old same old. You can come here half way in and call me the bad guy and say

I steeped over the line but like the rest who think so your clueless. You WONT disassemble this security

chip and I will do things they way I want. I have not stepped over the line. I've stood up to scumbags that

have less than honest plans with such a device. Again, I can post you several links to show you that its NOT

paranoia that drives me but words from avid supporters of JagWare. Again, like the rest who have been

at my throat, I really do not care what you think. I do thios for myself. If you or anyone else benefits, than

you got lucky. IF this chases you away, what makes you any stronger or better than me? Not a fucking thing.

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... murders, raping like I have read many times the last years is REALLY out of subject ;)

 

seriously ? :|

 

Seriously. There is one guy wich need to take some pills. You can add to this "criminals".

 

 

ok, no pb to understand who he is ...

 

criminals & thieves ... I've read this in the past concerning sebrmv and atomix 'cause it was done using GPL :|

Edited by mariaud

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Nobody is really gonna care if you do your best to make the most you can on your games. I would expect no less. However, there are boundaries and you sir, have stepped on a lot of them, impacting others for self-serving reasons. Again, that's just not "cool". Maybe in a few years, I'll have that thought again. Really wish I hadn't seen this mess, but I have and it sucks.

 

 

All this is just the same old same old. You can come here half way in and call me the bad guy and say

I steeped over the line but like the rest who think so your clueless. You WONT disassemble this security

chip and I will do things they way I want. I have not stepped over the line. I've stood up to scumbags that

have less than honest plans with such a device. Again, I can post you several links to show you that its NOT

paranoia that drives me but words from avid supporters of JagWare. Again, like the rest who have been

at my throat, I really do not care what you think. I do thios for myself. If you or anyone else benefits, than

you got lucky. IF this chases you away, what makes you any stronger or better than me? Not a fucking thing.

 

Gorf, dude... In response to your post below, I won't disassemble anything of yours because you don't want it. It's that simple. My point there was an expression of where some of your views come from, not some "whose hacking skillz are more bad ass" kind of thing. Everything gets cracked by somebody --everything man. You know it, I know it. Investing in a cool chip buys you time, perhaps a lot of time, perhaps enough time. Sadly, there are people who make it a matter of limited time. Interestingly, those same people often are necessary for other efforts, so it's kind of a circle. One takes the good with the bad. Ideally, one stays on the good side of things, hoping a majority of ones peers do the same.

 

It's not about better, stronger, etc... I don't think anybody that matters really cares about that aspect of things. I do believe people care about the general perception surrounding the machine goes though, and that really was what I was speaking to.

 

I pulled that last post. I meant it as advocacy, but mangled that aspect of it badly --very badly. Clearly it's just harm. Sorry all for that! I stepped way over the line as well. We get edits though! So that can be fixed for the longer term.

 

I'll try it this way, staying rational (hopefully): Leveraging this community here, in this public way, does harm. IMHO, it's a very similar harm to the one you feel when people leverage your work with no compensation. I absolutely support anything you want to do. I think most people, if not all people here, are in a similar mindset. That's necessary for the "everybody feels good about it" part, that makes this all worth while. So, get your chip, do your release, get your sales and enjoy all of that, and the reactions from people grooving on your art. Just remember others are trying to do the same thing! They depend on the same support you do. And that's where the harm is. They are denied it, when this stuff is happening.

 

 

 

Consider:

 

If you are really doing this for yourself, then you have no worries about the rest of it, right? Think hard about that. Please.

 

Also, if you do the work to get protection done, in a way that makes good sense, why not share that with others and thus marginalize any impact you think the other device might have? If you are looking for dollars, that just might be another avenue worth some investment. Or, perhaps offer a service where others, having made the investment you did, can get their stuff released in the same fashion, if they are so inclined. There are always ways to work with people. Why not? It's better than this.

 

 

 

 

I'm gonna go off and forget this mess. Let the Jag sit and see if maybe things have changed after some time has passed. There is plenty to enjoy right now, the Jag can wait, so that's all good.

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The fact is, I get along fine with most everyone else. It is just a certian few that tend to want to shoot their mouths off when

they just plain have'nt the foggiest. I think you coming in the middle here and trying to play advocate is noble, but probably

something you are way in over your head with. There is two years of history with this deal. I was as honest and civil I knew

how to be at first. The insults and badmouthing of my works and products followed, instead of a simply answer.....

 

"Yes Gorf, we do indeed plan to see to it that other developers games are protected"

 

OR

 

"No, we have every intention to allow such ROM and DL'ing activities."

 

What I got was niether and somewhere in between and still no answers.

 

I understand you and most of you do not understand the entire history but if this is the case, you should not

come across like you do. NO , Im not pointing fingers at you specifically or exclusively but it does help to know

the whole deal. I've been trying to explain that. I do not want to post things that though they clearly show why

I have this attitude, I know this place would explode.....I already drive poor Albert crazy as it is so I really

dont want to do that if I can help it.

 

If Jagware and their supporters came into this with a better attitude toward us, you can bet they would have

alot moer than just an add on to crow about as we would have supported them all the way. We do not go out

of our way to push people out of this community but at the same time we want to be sure no one, including myself

gets screwed if we can help it. Paranoia? Maybe so, but better safe than sorry.

 

One more time I'll say, I will eventually release these games because I WILL find a way to that satisfies me. I 've

done too much work on this machine the past 12 years to dump it all now. If it does not happen, I will only be sad

for those who I think suffered as a result by no fault of their own but by those that would answer simple questions.

 

We have not come into this only complaining. We HAVE offered reasonble and honest alternatives to the Jagware

crew and never got much in the way of what I consider a solid answer.

 

I have never once asked them to cancel their product or leave or even wish them ill will other than that they will

see that this feature is a sore spot and it's unecessary. Matthias had a RAM cart. You never once saw me bitch

about that. Why? I completely trust Matthias based soley on his contributions. I have no fear that he intends to ever

use that thing for rom and copying purposes.

 

We even thought about an add-on at one time. We realized however that there are plenty of cycles left in the Jag

as it is and we need to exhaust that first. This is not about just any add on but the intentions of those most advid

supporters BASED on their past activities. This is a very different situation. It is also the very first time I ever

complained about someone elses products other than maybe Carls' high prices. That however is still Carl's right

and Im sure he feels he is justified and I would never tell him to leave the Jaguar scene just becasue of this.

 

Carl was a dealer for Gorf. I'll do business with him again. We had an agreement, he followed through and that

goes a long way with me. I made him a deal. He accepted and stuck to that deal and it kept Gorf at the SLP of

$34.95. I look out for you guys more than you could possibly know. I know this is all sounding like bitching and

moaning and a lot of it is, but it is for the ultimate purpose of the fans. Beleive me, all im getting out of this is a

lot of BS from a lot of people. Coding this monster is time consuming. I can't help if some of you take things the

wrong way and see things differently. I do the best I can with what I have. You will see hopefully sooner than

later, that I am not some control freak. Time will hopefully tell and you will see what we have been working

hard on.

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It wasn't noble... It was really more of a "what the fuck?", "There is squabbling over this?", "Why?"

 

That sentiment remains, and you are not kidding! Tons of history. Too much history. This really should have come to some resolution a LONG time ago.

 

I've given your POV some additional thought and here is where I am at on it. I don't think you are a bad guy. I do think your POV and actions are not in "our", or "the fans" interest. And I'm not currently "a fan", please do not write to me as if I were one. That hasn't happened yet. Really, I was just thinking about maybe adding some stuff to the Jag, and have decided now is not the time.

 

If the Jag is such a bitch to develop for that these matters become significant, then perhaps it's not one for a robust scene, of the kind I currently enjoy in 8bit land.

 

A big part of that scene, that I personally enjoy, is hacks and the ability to go and look through the games, learn stuff, etc...

 

Maybe a Jag game is outside the scale where that makes sense. Maybe it's those currently willing and able, worried about others becoming willing and able as much as it is copies. Perhaps this scale and effort, puts it closer to "commerical" than "retro" and that just might be the crux of it right there. Having thought about it, this feels damn commercial. Is there any code one could look at? How are you using the Jag hardware? Who figured out what, and what remains? Where is that killer code loop that everybody is talking about? Have a dev log somewhere people can look at, learn from and enjoy?

 

Can I go buy some gear, load up a demo or two and start hacking?

 

If everything is running well, the number of interested developers should be growing, learning from the pioneers, standing on their shoulders, hoping to contribute their own goodness to the whole thing. That's home brew, retro. Somehow, this just isn't quite there yet. Again, feels commerical, almost desperately commercial. That's ok, but I'm coming to realize perhaps this just isn't my thing. Love the console, love the games, but love the scene more. True for me anyway.

 

Quite frankly, maybe it really is a matter of age! Maybe if the Jag ages a few more years, some of these things will become less important, allowing for a more open scene.

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Can I go buy some gear, load up a demo or two and start hacking?

 

If everything is running well, the number of interested developers should be growing, learning from the pioneers, standing on their shoulders, hoping to contribute their own goodness to the whole thing. That's home brew, retro. Somehow, this just isn't quite there yet. Again, feels commerical, almost desperately commercial. That's ok, but I'm coming to realize perhaps this just isn't my thing. Love the console, love the games, but love the scene more. True for me anyway.

 

Quite frankly, maybe it really is a matter of age! Maybe if the Jag ages a few more years, some of these things will become less important, allowing for a more open scene.

 

Ah well. Until then there's always the next JagCode 500.

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Here is the real deal...

 

The last 8-bit consoles from Atari were commercially dead as of 1992. It wasn't until about 5 years later that the homebrew scene really started to get cracking on them. By then there were no serious commecial third parties still trying to write games for them (except maybe some tiny european companies for the XEGS/8-bit). These platforms had a little while to "rest" in the attic and gain some nostalgia points. When homebrewing started up, it didn't really have delusions of running a for profit company off of it. It was really a collaborative open source hacking community enabled by the internet. They may have left their machine in the closet back in the crash of 1984 rather than the official death date of 1992. So a lot of the homebrewing you see today is done by people who "rediscovered" the platform after being away from it for 10-20 years. It's a very different mindset.

 

With the Jaguar, there was no break in continuity. It fizzled recently. The people who are into it today are largely the same people who bought it when it was new and watched it tank. Some of these people may not even be "classic game" fans, because the Jag is a modern era console. They may have more of the juvenile religious-devotion mentality that modern hardcore gamers tend to adopt. There is consequently this leftover denial of the Jaguar's death. People still cling to illusions of its ability to sustain traditional 3rd parties that operate in accordance with the conventions of the rest of the industry (closed source, lockout chips, and cease and desist letters). They actually think this is a GOOD thing when it really isn't. So there is a schism between that fringe crowd and the more pragmatic crowd who see the Jaguar in the same light as the 2600 who would just like everything cracked open wide and have fun collaborating.

 

So as long as that schism lasts, the scene will suffer.

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You just cant compare the 2600 or 8 bit with the Jag. The former two had a large following for many years

like you said. There were more tools and ways to code those machines than you can count on a crowds

worth of limbs. The Jaguar never got started in that respect. We have an assembler that was written for

the 8 bits and the ST and they were nice enough guys to throw in a RISC assembler, also based on the

old 16 ST MADMAC. Then we have two processors crippled by the presence of the 68k unless you keep it

of the bus...ie stop it completely. You CAN run code out of the local of the GPU but you need to understand

how to. Once you do, you need to do it all by hand, re-adjusting addresses constantly....BY HAND. I just

recently got in to batari Basic. IF the JAguar even had something like this when it was released it would

have been lightyears better than the crap they expected developers to write games with.

 

My point? The effort for a Jag game is so much more than that you will ever need on the 8 bits it's

like night and day. You are trying to juggle 5 processors(well 4 if you are smart and just pretend

the 68k isnt there). If writing Jag games were as easy as those machines, that would be one thing.

This is a whole new world in console coding. Their is more juice in the Jag and the ONLY way to get

it out at this time is by hand coding everything. Yeah you can port 16 bit titles in a weekend but you

wont do a game like BattleSphere. That is several levels of coding difficulty above porting C code

to the 68k.

 

Lock out chips are a wonderful thing. It give a person a right to keep what is theirs secure.

If that causes a chasm, let it. I dont leave my doors unlocked at night. This is no diffferent.

 

Closed source? That is up to the writer and it is not a bad thing either.

 

Cease and desist in homebrew? That's laughable and would never be allowed in any serious

court of law.

 

The scene will do fine once certain parties stop feeling developers owe them something for

nothing. It really comes across as ingrateful...really. Code a Jag game and try squeezing

every last ounce of balls you can from it and then come and tell me I'm wrong or selfish.

 

You know what really bothers me? I could have wrote a ton of shit games and sold them

knowing some of the fans here aer just plain willing to buy anything sight unseen. I want

to code the Jaguar as it should be and present games like they were supposed to be.

That is going to cost me...a lot. But , im still the bad guy? This is not homebrew because

money is exchanged?

 

Also, if you actually visited more jagaur forums than this one you would see there is a

playground there and a freely give away lessons for beginers to get them started.

 

Again, some of you guys come in here, knowing only part of the story and yet you

surmise all sorts of nonsense from it. I know I've done my part and will continue to

and I will do so on my terms. If you dont like them, dont like them.

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...You know what really bothers me? I could have wrote a ton of shit games and sold them

knowing some of the fans here aer just plain willing to buy anything sight unseen. ....

 

yeah a few people would have bought your "shit games" but give more credit to the jag fans...they're not as dumb as you may think. people would know that your games suck, reviews would be bad, and there's no way you'd avoid a 3rd degree in forums like this. you try releasing a terd of games like trevor and see how many you can sell. i bet you won't get far...

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...You know what really bothers me? I could have wrote a ton of shit games and sold them

knowing some of the fans here aer just plain willing to buy anything sight unseen. ....

 

yeah a few people would have bought your "shit games" but give more credit to the jag fans...they're not as dumb as you may think. people would know that your games suck, reviews would be bad, and there's no way you'd avoid a 3rd degree in forums like this. you try releasing a terd of games like trevor and see how many you can sell. i bet you won't get far...

 

I'm not arguing the CF anymore, its not worth it.

 

Though on the above, there are incomplete game fragments, demos and/or minigames selling for near $40 new. Go jump on them about it.

Edited by JagChris

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My point? The effort for a Jag game is so much more than that you will ever need on the 8 bits it's

like night and day. You are trying to juggle 5 processors(well 4 if you are smart and just pretend

the 68k isnt there). If writing Jag games were as easy as those machines, that would be one thing.

This is a whole new world in console coding. Their is more juice in the Jag and the ONLY way to get

it out at this time is by hand coding everything. Yeah you can port 16 bit titles in a weekend but you

wont do a game like BattleSphere. That is several levels of coding difficulty above porting C code

to the 68k.

 

You're kind of making my point in saying this. The Jaguar failed (and has continued to fail to catch on with homebrewers) because it is too hard to write for--and outright buggy.

 

I visited Scott LeGrand and co. when they were finishing Battlesphere. (I was actually talking to them about the possibility of making a coinop version.) I got a first hand look at the torture they were going through with the buggy networking and caches. Why would anyone want to follow in their footsteps? This is not a rhetorical question. Please fill me in.

 

What are you really in it for? Is it all meant to boost your ego or do you really want to help the platform? And what are you doing to make it happen? So far all I can see that you've contributed to the Jaguar is a pixel-accurate port of a game from almost 30 years ago that I could play just as well in MAME on my GP2X.

 

What else? Quick google search yeilds gems of cognitive dissonance like:

 

Jesus came 2000 years ago and showed us that is it truly more devine[sic] to give

than recieve. This gift reflects that spirit. Good will and peace between all men

of every nation. God gave us the greatest gift of all, His one and only Son that

we all may have life and live in true peace someday. Accept that gift, no charge!

 

Immediately followed by:

 

IT may NOT be disassembled as you will be in violation of

law and I will act with in my rights.

 

If that wasn't enough, you embedded it into the program itself:

 

 

surrounded16vc4.th.jpg

 

Do you know how silly this looks? The only people who might be curious enough to disassemble the program would be the very people the Jaguar desperately needs. Yet you are spouting off warning messages like you are afraid that people are going to be making millions by exploiting your demo in some way. In the process you're basically scaring off developers, or at least forcing them to just toil away in the darkness. What are you going to do, sift through every bit of new Jag code that ever gets written looking for a regex pattern that machines your code? You want to be the new SCO?

 

2600 coders have benefitted from disassembly, even 3rd parties back in the day used to disassemble eachother's programs. There are a great many things the 2600 can do only one way. Whoever was the first to do it had to accept the reality that everyone else would reuse it with little variation because that technique was TOO valuable to lock away in just one and only one game. The 2600 catalog would be a pale shadow of itself if the letter of the law were strictly applied. I think the developers of the day realized this, that they benefitted in the end from combined subterfuge, and so it was allowed to persist as a form of healthy espionage. If the Jag is so damn complicated, and using the multiple CPUs effectively is such a balancing act, the platform is going nowhere unless everyone shares their best innovations, plain and simple.

 

You seem to have an outright obsession with intellectual property. In the end it's counterproductive. The only thing an orphaned platform can benefit from is the global sharing and collaboration between developers and the feedback from the community, something it could never get when it was supported only by closed-off profit-motivated game companies.

 

The spirit of classic gaming really traces itself back to Steve Russell's Space War in the 1960s. Back then people wrote games to play, but also wrote games for the fun and the challenge of getting the hardware to do "cool stuff". In fact, trace the history of your favorite games and you'll usually find that the person who wrote it did it for fun, not for business. NDAs, EULAs, DRM, DMCA, all that stuff are the antithesis to that.

 

Copyrights/DRM only really work when you have an asset that is in such demand that people will be willing to up with the hassles, and the insult of being treated like a potential criminal. In a scene as fragile as an orphaned game machine, the ONLY viable path is openness and the honor system.

Edited by mos6507

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...You know what really bothers me? I could have wrote a ton of shit games and sold them

knowing some of the fans here aer just plain willing to buy anything sight unseen. ....

 

yeah a few people would have bought your "shit games" but give more credit to the jag fans...they're not as dumb as you may think. people would know that your games suck, reviews would be bad, and there's no way you'd avoid a 3rd degree in forums like this. you try releasing a terd of games like trevor and see how many you can sell. i bet you won't get far...

 

 

You obviously do not understand the Jag fans. Unfortunately, They not only pay for

shit, they also are willing to pay a lot for it. I would never for any reason release

intentional crap but there is a much bigger market for it than you are willing to beleive.

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Gorf has made it clear what his objections are and I am surprised there is still so much back and forth regarding this. As a developer his concerns are fair enough.

 

What I still find interesting is all this discussion about a product that is not even on the market yet. As a product that appears to still be developing, many arguments, concerns etc have been put forward to the JagCF team and I think they have made it clear what their intentions are. No further arguments, rational or irrational, are going to change things from what I see.

 

*IF* the JagCF ever makes it to a saleable product then I am sure we will go through the weeks, months, years of this continued disagreement.

 

Personally, I will not buy one as I have an Alpine and am going to spend my time writing new dev software for the Jag as BrainStorm do not wish to release the code.

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You're kind of making my point in saying this. The Jaguar failed (and has continued to fail to catch on with homebrewers) because it is too hard to write for--and outright buggy.

 

Yes.

 

Jesus came 2000 years ago and showed us that is it truly more devine[sic] to give

than recieve. This gift reflects that spirit. Good will and peace between all men

of every nation. God gave us the greatest gift of all, His one and only Son that

we all may have life and live in true peace someday. Accept that gift, no charge!

 

Immediately followed by:

 

IT may NOT be disassembled as you will be in violation of

law and I will act with in my rights.

 

If that wasn't enough, you embedded it into the program itself:

 

Do you know how silly this looks?

 

 

God gives eteranl life through Christ but he does not reveal the secrets of the

universe to us.....I think it's dead on actually! Thanks for pointing that out.

Bolsters my point nicely.

 

 

This is no different than any other software company does. I think it is anything BUT silly.

 

To thieves it looks real silly. Are you saying because I give something away

so fans do not have to pay for it, yet tell them to keep out of my code, Im a

hypocrite now? It's funny, I see these same disclaimers on EVERY peice of

software, yet its silly because people cant steal my code? Because this is

homebrew? Amazing. You must live in russia....if not you need to ...it's right

up your alley.

 

 

The only people who might be curious enough to disassemble the program would be the very people the Jaguar desperately needs. Yet you are spouting off warning messages like you are afraid that people are going to be making millions by exploiting your demo in some way. In the process you're basically scaring off developers, or at least forcing them to just toil away in the darkness.

 

I never disassemeled some one elses code for use in my own projects so this is very foriegn to me.

I believe you work for what you want, not steal it from others. Im more than willing to share my

code with some but not all. Some I just don't trust. I do not cast my pearls before swine, only to

get them trampelled underfoot and then those swine turn and attack me. along with the good loyal

fans in this community, ther are a lot of dis honest people mixed in. Im watching my back.

 

What are you going to do, sift through every bit of new Jag code that ever gets written looking for a regex pattern that machines your code? You want to be the new SCO?

 

:rolling:

 

Your being ridiculous now and all of this will NEVER change my mind. Im too busy laughing at this.

I assume you mean SCO UNIX. If so, this is such a retarted stretch its simply hilaious.

 

 

2600 coders have benefitted from disassembly, even 3rd parties back in the day used to disassemble eachother's programs.

 

Yeah and most newer games are rippoffs with graphic changes so if you find that a

benefit I can have tons of shit clone stuff to sell you in a few days. Want it?

Just let me know.

 

You seem to have an outright obsession with intellectual property. In the end it's counterproductive. The only thing an orphaned platform can benefit from is the global sharing and collaboration between developers and the feedback from the community, something it could never get when it was supported only by closed-off profit-motivated game companies.

 

Ask those I teach to code the Jaguar if this is true or not. Coming in knowing half the story

in what looks silly here but you seem to have no problem looking silly. I do share it but with

those I trust.

 

The spirit of classic gaming really traces itself back to Steve Russell's Space War in the 1960s. Back then people wrote games to play, but also wrote games for the fun and the challenge of getting the hardware to do "cool stuff". In fact, trace the history of your favorite games and you'll usually find that the person who wrote it did it for fun, not for business. NDAs, EULAs, DRM, DMCA, all that stuff are the antithesis to that.

 

And no doubt would haev been fired immediately for making it public that he developed NON company

releated software on company time.

 

I sign these to make a living. You pay me a yearly salary that I can live off of and I wont sing them

anymore ...hows that?

 

Copyrights/DRM only really work when you have an asset that is in such demand that people will be willing to up with the hassles, and the insult of being treated like a potential criminal. In a scene as fragile as an orphaned game machine, the ONLY viable path is openness and the honor system.

 

Im a software developer and a business. My practices are no differrent thatn anyone else.

I am perfectly in the right and justified. I knowyou like something for nothin, and so does

everyone else but not everyone else steal like you guys and justifies it through utter

nonsensicalreason.

 

People in the software industy hire LARGE teams to pay them to make games.

Im tying to make games withtwo other guys helping on a system that needs a lot

more than two other guys, but we do it anyway. We charge the bare minimun to

cover our cost.

 

All your argumnets are just you wanting my hard work for free. You'll just have t pay for it guy.

Or dont bother at all...no skin off my ass. Tha last thing I need is a total stranger like yourself

telling me what my motives and my love and ANYTHING else are for a system. OR what I can do

with what is completely mine to do it with.

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Gorf has made it clear what his objections are and I am surprised there is still so much back and forth regarding this. As a developer his concerns are fair enough.

 

What I still find interesting is all this discussion about a product that is not even on the market yet. As a product that appears to still be developing, many arguments, concerns etc have been put forward to the JagCF team and I think they have made it clear what their intentions are. No further arguments, rational or irrational, are going to change things from what I see.

 

*IF* the JagCF ever makes it to a saleable product then I am sure we will go through the weeks, months, years of this continued disagreement.

 

Personally, I will not buy one as I have an Alpine and am going to spend my time writing new dev software for the Jag as BrainStorm do not wish to release the code.

 

 

SQM, it should by now be apparently clear that these guys will do

anything not to work hard or pay for something. I never see this on

any other forum unless there are serious pirating activities going on.

You wont see this nonsense at JSII.

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