Would it be possible to build an analog controller for the Jag?

[spiffyone]

Well, would it?

 

Obviously the controller wouldn't really support current games...but how about upcoming games?

 

Say a dev group develops a game, but before doing so makes their own analog controller or modifies a stock Jag or pro controller with an analog stick. Could they then develop a game using that control as an option alongside the normal d-pad option?

[Zerosquare]

Yes, and Stephen Moss is working on it

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=98138

http://www.sgmelectrosoft.co.uk/hardware/gamepad.htm

Edited September 12, 2007 by Zerosquare

[jaysmith2000]

One already exists - DKG Flight Stick. Also, Battlesphere supports Analog control.

[BuddyBuddies]

One already exists - DKG Flight Stick. Also, Battlesphere supports Analog control.

Battlesphere kicks arse!!

[spiffyone]

One already exists - DKG Flight Stick. Also, Battlesphere supports Analog control.

 

And yet another reason why I need to get that game.

 

But not for $500+ or whatever it's being sold for nowadays. I just won't pay over $79.99 for a game.

 

But...damn...they pretty much thought of everything for that game.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if there's a secret option for the friggin' VR helmet in that game.

[spiffyone]

Yes, and Stephen Moss is working on it

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=98138

http://www.sgmelectrosoft.co.uk/hardware/gamepad.htm

 

Eh...it's a converted PSone controller. Not a bad idea, per se...but I'd rather actually modify a Jag controller (original or pro) with an analog stick.

 

And I wonder how the different types of analog stick designs would work on Jag. The Dual Shock design uses pentometers, the N64 (and probably GC as well) design uses LED and photocells, and the Dreamcast (and likely the Saturn as well) used tiny magnets and sensors.

 

And isn't the DKG Flight Stick just a modded Gravis Blackhawk PC joystick? I thought those were digital, not analog.

[spiffyone]

Also, if the Dual Shock design is to be the design used (and btw, I hate that d-pad), then will the actual "shock" be used (the force feedback/rumble)?

[Zerosquare]

Also, if the Dual Shock design is to be the design used (and btw, I hate that d-pad), then will the actual "shock" be used (the force feedback/rumble)?

Yes, this one of Stephen's goals : having force-feedback-compatible games on the Jag.

 

One thing to keep in mind if a new analog controller is created : do not rely upon the internal ADC chip. A lot of Jaguars don't have one, and anyways the only game which uses it is Battlesphere (and there are already existing analog controllers for it).

[Gorf]

Using mouse incoders is probably the best way to emulate analog without ADC.

I've already done this using Bastians 68k code. I took that code and converted

it over to the DSP. It works excellent. I wrote a Centepedish like app(in 3D) to

test it out. No, its not a complete game nor will it ever be. It was a test. I repeat

a test.

[+Stephen Moss]

Not a bad idea, per se...but I'd rather actually modify a Jag controller (original or pro) with an analog stick.

I don't think there is room to fit one inside a JagPad and you would still need to purchase PS controller to rip the analogue stick from unless you know where to purchase them from but IIRC I could not find a source.

Also, if the Dual Shock design is to be the design used (and btw, I hate that d-pad), then will the actual "shock" be used (the force feedback/rumble)?

The restriction with modified controller is that it takes the power from the Jaguar and with the current restrictions that places upon the design only the small motor can be run and then only in PS one controllers.

As there appears to be more demand for a converter than a mod I am currently working on such a project, the current intention is to make it self powered thus allowing the use of both motors with 11 set speeds for the larger motor, it will also be bankswitching thus avoiding the need for the Jaguar to have an internal ADC.

If I can get this going and then I may rewire and alter the programming on the controller mod version to make it Battlesphere compatable assuming that...

a) I can find out which buttons BattleSphere uses and for what as the PS controller may not have enough available buttons

b) there is a demand for it.

Using mouse incoders is probably the best way to emulate analog without ADC.

How does that work?

I though mice used rotary encoders which provide grey scale outputs just like those used in Jaguar rotary controllers in which case wouldn't you just get L,R,U,D?

You could perhaps chart the change in speed in an anlogue manor but that would not be much use for analogue directional control as to maintaining it would require you to keep the mouse constantly moving at that rate and direction which is not possible unless you have acres of space an Inspector Gadget arms.

[Gorf]

Not a bad idea, per se...but I'd rather actually modify a Jag controller (original or pro) with an analog stick.

I don't think there is room to fit one inside a JagPad and you would still need to purchase PS controller to rip the analogue stick from unless you know where to purchase them from but IIRC I could not find a source.

Also, if the Dual Shock design is to be the design used (and btw, I hate that d-pad), then will the actual "shock" be used (the force feedback/rumble)?

The restriction with modified controller is that it takes the power from the Jaguar and with the current restrictions that places upon the design only the small motor can be run and then only in PS one controllers.

As there appears to be more demand for a converter than a mod I am currently working on such a project, the current intention is to make it self powered thus allowing the use of both motors with 11 set speeds for the larger motor, it will also be bankswitching thus avoiding the need for the Jaguar to have an internal ADC.

If I can get this going and then I may rewire and alter the programming on the controller mod version to make it Battlesphere compatable assuming that...

a) I can find out which buttons BattleSphere uses and for what as the PS controller may not have enough available buttons

b) there is a demand for it.

Using mouse incoders is probably the best way to emulate analog without ADC.

How does that work?

I though mice used rotary encoders which provide grey scale outputs just like those used in Jaguar rotary controllers in which case wouldn't you just get L,R,U,D?

You could perhaps chart the change in speed in an anlogue manor but that would not be much use for analogue directional control as to maintaining it would require you to keep the mouse constantly moving at that rate and direction which is not possible unless you have acres of space an Inspector Gadget arms.

 

 

 

 

Nope...not at all. You can easily use it JUST like a paddle or encoder. I use this in PaddleBaddles which is

a Pong games multi cart in 3D for Jaguar. All you need to do is track the last angle of your player.

Remember Indy 500 is a racer on the 2600 and it uses the driving controllers which are indeed encoders.

 

Also encoders usually output 0,2,1,3 or 3,1,2,0 depending on the direction you turn them and not LRUD.

 

Yes they use rotay endocers but a simple little alg will turn them into very useful analog(emulating analog

of corse). These rotaries are and excellent way to do yokes and stering wheels.

 

If you need some assistance with using rotaries encoders, just let me know. I assume this is for Jaguar

correct?

 

 

also....Encoders will not require anything more than then five volts coming from the joy port

and they WONT use hardly any current so you need not worry about current draw.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Gorf

[Gorf]

The yoke in a Star Wars machine is half analog and half optical(encoder).

[Video]

Wasn't there a proto Jag controller that had analog 3Dedness to it? I was thinking there was. As far as possible, certainly. The Jag (even useing the 68k chip) is more than powerfull enough to handle it, Hell, the 2600 did it, so any console after that should technically be able to handle it. And even if they werent, you could put a chip in the controller to handle the conversion to something the system could handle.

[Gorf]

Wasn't there a proto Jag controller that had analog 3Dedness to it? I was thinking there was. As far as possible, certainly. The Jag (even useing the 68k chip) is more than powerfull enough to handle it, Hell, the 2600 did it, so any console after that should technically be able to handle it. And even if they werent, you could put a chip in the controller to handle the conversion to something the system could handle.

 

The earlier Jaguars had actual A to D converters on the MB ....the later models they were removed as

Atari never did use them. You can actually add the AtoD if you are good with soldering. The spots for

the AtoD and support componets still exsist on all Jaguar MB's they are just not populated in the later runs.

 

But YES! you can add AtoD right in the controller...but again encoders work much better than going through all that.

[Video]

SwEET! So, is there an external way I can know if my Jag is a crusty old AtoD model, or a newer no atod model?

 

Good grief, I just looked and the Jags all covered in dust...I should probably put it somewhere besides on top of the TV where I can't see it lol

[Gorf]

SwEET! So, is there an external way I can know if my Jag is a crusty old AtoD model, or a newer no atod model?

 

Good grief, I just looked and the Jags all covered in dust...I should probably put it somewhere besides on top of the TV where I can't see it lol

 

IIRC, there is a test on Matthias site...if you have a means of uploading I think he has

an app for the jaguar.

 

This might be helpful...

[Sonaru]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but has there been any update on analog stick controls for the Jaguar? It would be interesting to see developers take advantage of one or two analog sticks for 3d shooter games. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Sonaru

[+Stephen Moss]

I don't know if anyone else is working on one but there has not been any development on my DualShock adaptor for several years, as the game designer who requested analogue controller ceased development so the impetus to finish it was not there. It was 95% complete, just needs a faster device to try and get it to work correctly with both A and H versions as it was only 100% compatible with A versions.

 

So instead I switched focus to a USB interface as that would support many controllers (analogue and digital), games pads, joysticks, mouse and potentially even keyboard if it was really needed , in theory it should be better as instead of coders having to write different code for different controllers the same code could essentially be used for all, as all USB controllers should be classed as HID devices and thus have a fairly common interface.

I got as far as attach/detach detections and enumeration but got stuck on reading data (device going into suspend), I think I know why but have not had time to work on that for a while. I did pick up a book on USB in the summer which looks like it may be very helpful and so am hoping I can get back to it at some point. But USB is quite complicated as it really needs some dedicated time to work on it as it is not really something you can pick up and put down so I need to clear or abandon some other projects first.

[Zerosquare]

If you don't want to handle USB yourself, there's this option:

https://ftdichip.com/products/vnc2-48l1c/

 

It's a chip that integrates a USB stack and an API with high-level functions to handle mice, keyboards, game controllers, mass storage...

[+Gemintronic]

I think USB to classic console is a thing that needs to happen.  As THE standard for PC joysticks there are so many choices that finding your personal price/value sweet spot is much easier.

 

Right now the only alternative I got is.. the boomerang.

[str0m]

Vaguely on topic, I have one of the USB mouse adapters which works well https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203382512265?hash=item2f5a8ada89:g:7CoAAOSww35ghFpJ

[+cubanismo]

Doesn't USB require 100mA@5v bus power though? Is an external power adapter used?

 

Regardless, this would be cool. Since I've been playing Daytona on Saturn with the Arcade Racer wheel a lot, I've been wishing there was some analog solution to use for a racer on Jaguar. I'll probably never get around to doing this, so don't go off and do work on account of it, but I really want to make a game with graphics roughly like checkered flag, but that also has controls.

[+Stephen Moss]

22 hours ago, Zerosquare said:

It's a chip that integrates a USB stack and an API with high-level functions to handle mice, keyboards, game controllers, mass storage...

I looked at the Veniculum chips a few years ago but decided again using them for some reason.

 

8 hours ago, cubanismo said:

Doesn't USB require 100mA@5v bus power though? Is an external power adapter used?

I think it is higher that that, the host has to supply at least 0.5A, maybe more depending on which version of the USB Specifications it is adhering to, the slave indicates to the host how much current it wants and the host decides if it can accommodate that as determined by how  much of the total available has already been assigned to other devices attached to the bus. Although in this case it could be less as I am only looking at supporting one device per port. 

So yes, USB would require an external power unit (as would my DualShock adaptor if you want to run the motors), which one the one hand does increase the overall cost, however if you make the power unit powerful enough to also run the Jag and CD unit from it also solves the problem of finding replacement power bricks if your original fails.

[Zerosquare]

USB 1.1/2.0 hosts are required to supply at least 100 mA, and USB 1.1/2.0 devices are required to draw less than that until they've got permission from the host. In any case, they're not allowed to draw more than 500 mA.

 

So an unpowered USB-to-joystick-port adapter is technically not a proper USB host, but most mice draw less than the 50 mA the joystick port can supply, so it's not a problem in practice.