ColecoVision is hot right now!

[Bill Brasky]

1. I've questioned it before with no real resolution, but if DK and DKJ image can be put on cart, shouldn't we be able to get Dragon's Lair on a cart, too??

Murph

 

 

Maybe a Megacart. DK and DKJ didn't really fit onto a cart. They had to cut out the title screen, high score screen, maybe some intermissions and the 5th screen, Mario's Hideout/bakery from DKJ. There's no way you could squeeze DL into 32k. It might not even run on CV without a memory expansion.

[Pixelboy]

1. I've questioned it before with no real resolution, but if DK and DKJ image can be put on cart, shouldn't we be able to get Dragon's Lair on a cart, too??

I've investigated this before (in a very limited fashion, given my limited technical knowledge of the Adam), and it might be possible to put Dragon's Lair on a MegaCart, but there are a lot of unknowns which can complicate things.

 

For one thing, a verification needs to be made to see if the levels are loaded as individual chunks of 16K or less. The fact that DL runs on the Adam's basic 64K of RAM (no RAM expansion required), coupled with the fact that the next level is loaded while the current level is being played, would seem to support the theory that the levels are stored as chunks of 16K, or at most 24K. If the chunks are over 16K in length, then it can't be done with the existing MegaCart architecture because only the upper 16K of the MegaCart ROM adressing range is bankswitched.

 

There's also the issue of RAM usage. Can Dragon's Lair be converted from a "load-and-run-everything-in-RAM" architecture to a bankswitched 32K cartridge setup coupled with only 1K of RAM? I would expect it to be feasible, but it would probably involve a disassembly of the entire software (somewhere between 100K and 200K of machine code), followed by an extensive analysis of the code, and a rewrite of a significant percentage of that code.

 

Only a guy who:

a) is intimately knowledgeable about the Adam's Z80 architecture,

b) is crazy about Dragon's Lair, and

c) has enough free time to spend on such a large reverse-engineering project

... could be expected to pull it off. Find such a guy, and I'll pull out all the stops to supply him with a socketed MegaCart PCB for him to play with. But we all know the odds of finding such a guy a very low. Marcel de Kogel (author of AdamEm) could have been a good candidate for this job, but he's been MIA for years, AFAIK.

[Colecovision]

ColecoVision is hot right now!

 

Thanks!

[Ikrananka]

Only a guy who:

a) is intimately knowledgeable about the Adam's Z80 architecture,

b) is crazy about Dragon's Lair, and

c) has enough free time to spend on such a large reverse-engineering project

 

Well I meet one of the criteria, i.e. b). Now all we need is someone to fit a) and c)

Edited October 29, 2007 by Ikrananka

[Murph74]

I can see the validity in your analysis, Pixelboy, but I am more inclined to think the program is structured the same as the other supergames available based on in-game behaviors (titles, loads and hall of fame, etc) that seemed to feed off the extra Ram, but used the Colecovision as the core engine for the game. The game was available on Disk format, which would limit the code to 160k (even with 9 games levels), and most likely in the smaller chunks you speak of --again, 9 levels into 160k if they're evenly distributed with no overhead would be 17.7K. I'm sure there's overhead. None of the levels are overly complex gaming. So I say it's doable-- just beyond my skill level.

 

 

Even the fact near identical versions were ultimately ported to most mid 80's systems (Amstrad, C-64, etc) is something of a reason to think it's portable to the Colecovision. And if nothing else, maybe the other c-64 series games, like Singe's castle would be portable back to the Adam or CV! Ok, Wishful thinking... but the original is the same game play between the Adam and C-64.

[Pixelboy]

I can see the validity in your analysis, Pixelboy, but I am more inclined to think the program is structured the same as the other supergames available based on in-game behaviors (titles, loads and hall of fame, etc) that seemed to feed off the extra Ram, but used the Colecovision as the core engine for the game.

The Adam had its own Z80 CPU, which took control away from the CV's CPU, didn't it? If by "core engine", you mean the standard VRAM, RF output, sound output and joystick input architectures, I guess you're right, but it doesn't mean much where Dragon's Lair is concerned.

 

The game was available on Disk format, which would limit the code to 160k (even with 9 games levels), and most likely in the smaller chunks you speak of --again, 9 levels into 160k if they're evenly distributed with no overhead would be 17.7K. I'm sure there's overhead. None of the levels are overly complex gaming. So I say it's doable-- just beyond my skill level.

I'd say the work involved in making DL work in cartridge format wouldn't be so much the levels themselves, but rather the overhead, as you say. The datapack/floppy access routines would have to be replaced with bankswitching routines, the hall of fame printer output routines would have to be removed, that sort of thing. But in order to change those routines, you have to find and decode them first. That's a lot of work right there. As for the levels themselves, the software logic should work as-is, but the RAM usage may need to be restructured to work within the CV's RAM address range. Again, potentially lots of work.

 

Even the fact near identical versions were ultimately ported to most mid 80's systems (Amstrad, C-64, etc) is something of a reason to think it's portable to the Colecovision. And if nothing else, maybe the other c-64 series games, like Singe's castle would be portable back to the Adam or CV! Ok, Wishful thinking... but the original is the same game play between the Adam and C-64.

The Adam and the C64 are completely different under the hood, so I don't see it as a relevant argument. Nevertheless, I do think you're right. I believe DL could probably be done on the CV as a cart. There probably aren't any big technical hurdles to overcome to make it work. The biggest hurdle is really to find a guy who's crazy enough to embark on such a project.

[opcode]

Only a guy who:

a) is intimately knowledgeable about the Adam's Z80 architecture,

b) is crazy about Dragon's Lair, and

c) has enough free time to spend on such a large reverse-engineering project

 

Well I meet one of the criteria, i.e. b). Now all we need is someone to fit a) and c)

 

Actually the ADAM doesn't have an extra Z80. It's the same Z80 as the ColecoVision. I think it has an extra CPU for I/O though (which isn't a Z80).

 

Eduardo

[Pixelboy]

Actually the ADAM doesn't have an extra Z80. It's the same Z80 as the ColecoVision. I think it has an extra CPU for I/O though (which isn't a Z80).

Well, yeah, I knew that, but the Adam's Z80 takes over the CV's Z80 when the Adam is plugged into the expansion port. In the case of the stand-alone memory console, the CPU is the same for both Adam and CV modes, unless I'm mistaken.

 

 

EDIT: Wait a minute... Are you telling me the Expansion Module #3 doesn't have a CPU at all???

Edited October 30, 2007 by Pixelboy

[Murph74]

Actually the ADAM doesn't have an extra Z80. It's the same Z80 as the ColecoVision. I think it has an extra CPU for I/O though (which isn't a Z80).

Well, yeah, I knew that, but the Adam's Z80 takes over the CV's Z80 when the Adam is plugged into the expansion port. In the case of the stand-alone memory console, the CPU is the same for both Adam and CV modes, unless I'm mistaken.

 

 

EDIT: Wait a minute... Are you telling me the Expansion Module #3 doesn't have a CPU at all???

 

I think that is what he's saying. It has the Adamnet I/O controller, but I don't believe they went thru the expense of a second z80 since the Adam was built around the Colecovision (as an accessory or add-on), not built to be standalone but still compatible with the Colecovision.

 

As for the DL protential, couldn't you just (for the sake of argument- I'm not a programmer as I've mentioned before) simply take memory snapshots of DL running on an Emulator and see how the routines are broken up in RAM?

 

Adn my point on the c-64 was it was identical programming and graphics of the game. Not implying compatibility, but saying if someone could disassemble the game and reassemble it on the c-64 (which appears to have been the case as opposed to just a from-scratch version), then I'd think the chore would be significantly easier on the Colecovision.

 

But yes, you're right-- the tough part is finding someone able and willing...

 

EDIT: From the Adam Technical Reference Manual:

The major difference between Expansion Module #3 and the complete Adam Home Computer System is in the Memory Console. The equivalent of the CPU Board is housed in the ColecoVision Console

 

Murph

Edited October 30, 2007 by Murph74

[Pixelboy]

As for the DL protential, couldn't you just (for the sake of argument- I'm not a programmer as I've mentioned before) simply take memory snapshots of DL running on an Emulator and see how the routines are broken up in RAM?

I suppose it's possible. Does AdamEm or the Adam driver in MESS offer this kind of functionnality?

 

(Funny I should mention MESS, as I tried playing Dragon's Lair on it last summer, but I couldn't figure out how to enable the CV keypad keys on my keyboard, so I was litteraly stuck at the title screen!)

[Murph74]

As for the DL protential, couldn't you just (for the sake of argument- I'm not a programmer as I've mentioned before) simply take memory snapshots of DL running on an Emulator and see how the routines are broken up in RAM?

I suppose it's possible. Does AdamEm or the Adam driver in MESS offer this kind of functionnality?

 

(Funny I should mention MESS, as I tried playing Dragon's Lair on it last summer, but I couldn't figure out how to enable the CV keypad keys on my keyboard, so I was litteraly stuck at the title screen!)

 

While I can't answer hte first paragraph, the second paragraph is a little easier. It's F9-- that toggles between KB/Joystick mode in Adamem and it's ports, which I believe the Mess driver is a derivative of.

[opcode]

EDIT: Wait a minute... Are you telling me the Expansion Module #3 doesn't have a CPU at all???

 

AFAIK, it doesn't have an extra CPU. It uses the ColecoVision CPU.

[Pixelboy]

While I can't answer hte first paragraph, the second paragraph is a little easier. It's F9-- that toggles between KB/Joystick mode in Adamem and it's ports, which I believe the Mess driver is a derivative of.

I just tried it again. F9 doesn't work for me.

[Zwackery]

back to the original topic...

 

looks like some people did some serious trick or treating on Halloween:

 

Up'n'Down CIB - $234.19

One on One CIB - $160.50

Sammy Lightfoot CIB - $298.69

[Murph74]

back to the original topic...

 

looks like some people did some serious trick or treating on Halloween:

 

Up'n'Down CIB - $234.19

One on One CIB - $160.50

Sammy Lightfoot CIB - $298.69

 

Damn... those prices are almost making wanna cash out. lol

 

Almost.

[8bitgamer]

As far as I'm concerned, the ColecoVision is the best pre-NES system and deserves the attention.

 

http://brettweisswords.blogspot.com/

[Zwackery]

Big trophies:

 

Gust Buster CIB (silver box) - $221.50

Jungle Hunt CIB - $202.49

Quest for Quintana Roo CIB (silver box) - $142.49

Wing War CIB - $124.50

 

...and Super Sketch NIB - $500

 

edited for more 11/07/07:

 

BC's Quest for Tires CIB (US box version) - $71.78

Oil's Well CIB - $167.50

Super Action Football (soccer) CIB (cardboard box, CBS release) - $271.99

 

another edit:

 

complete set of Colecovision Experience magazines, including 2 extra copies of Summer 1983: $306.78

Edited November 26, 2007 by Zwackery

[mumbai]

Big trophies:

 

...and Super Sketch NIB - $500

The one prior that ran a complete bid cycle on eBay fetched $900. (Not that either price compares favorably to those trading hands on eBay earlier.)

 

From some comments here, it appears no one recalls (or openly wants to) past periods of eBay "value" peaks that were competitive with, or higher than, the figures parroted here. What does seem a bit novel is that some valuations have sustained themselves on eBay throughout the year, despite what seems a span of time well above average in its "supply" of boxed titles.

[Bill Brasky]

I can see the validity in your analysis, Pixelboy, but I am more inclined to think the program is structured the same as the other supergames available based on in-game behaviors (titles, loads and hall of fame, etc) that seemed to feed off the extra Ram, but used the Colecovision as the core engine for the game. The game was available on Disk format, which would limit the code to 160k (even with 9 games levels), and most likely in the smaller chunks you speak of --again, 9 levels into 160k if they're evenly distributed with no overhead would be 17.7K. I'm sure there's overhead. None of the levels are overly complex gaming. So I say it's doable-- just beyond my skill level.

 

 

Even the fact near identical versions were ultimately ported to most mid 80's systems (Amstrad, C-64, etc) is something of a reason to think it's portable to the Colecovision. And if nothing else, maybe the other c-64 series games, like Singe's castle would be portable back to the Adam or CV! Ok, Wishful thinking... but the original is the same game play between the Adam and C-64.

 

There are other finished or nearly finished ADAM games that could be put on a cartridge easier: A.E., Hard Hat Mack, Pinball Construction Set, Family Feud, Jeopardy, Temple of Apshai.