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emkay

DooM XL ;-)

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You don't need floating-point computations for wolfenstein, trust me.

 

And I don't understand your method, I'm sorry. :(

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On a character mapped screen, think of it as a grid of 40x24 characters (48xn) if u use a custom display list and wide screen. To simulate looking down a strait hallway or passage, you can use redefined characters to draw the walls on the sides. End up looking like an X. Now for a connecting right angle passage or room, you have to draw characters on one of the sides of that X. The further away the connection is the smaller you will draw it, use less characters wide as you go further away. Like widths of 8,6,5,4,3,2 * as many rows. The method I am thinking of scans the passage to determine if there is a passage or wall. Lets say the connecting passage is almost immediately on your right. The left 8 characters on each row will display a flat texture, while the rest of the screen will be the remainder of the X. For the angled connecting characters between the floor and ceiling, create characters that are part wall texture/half floor or ceiling. With this you have 4 directions right away. It is possible to do the between angles at every 22.5 degrees, or small increments. Limitation is memory. If I wasn't stuck on another project I would help with the programming for this. If this is still not clear, I can draw a quick mock up.

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On a character mapped screen, think of it as a grid of 40x24 characters (48xn) if u use a custom display list and wide screen. To simulate looking down a strait hallway or passage, you can use redefined characters to draw the walls on the sides. End up looking like an X. Now for a connecting right angle passage or room, you have to draw characters on one of the sides of that X. The further away the connection is the smaller you will draw it, use less characters wide as you go further away. Like widths of 8,6,5,4,3,2 * as many rows. The method I am thinking of scans the passage to determine if there is a passage or wall. Lets say the connecting passage is almost immediately on your right. The left 8 characters on each row will display a flat texture, while the rest of the screen will be the remainder of the X. For the angled connecting characters between the floor and ceiling, create characters that are part wall texture/half floor or ceiling. With this you have 4 directions right away. It is possible to do the between angles at every 22.5 degrees, or small increments. Limitation is memory. If I wasn't stuck on another project I would help with the programming for this. If this is still not clear, I can draw a quick mock up.

 

Charmode is useful for "fullscreen" while "my hires idea" fits more to the "small screen" Speccy/C64 techniques.

 

Using "standard" colour modes, I'd ever appreciate to lay the PMG over the full screen and to build the huge graphics parts (walls) with the PMG itself.

So you have the full playfield for doing "using refedined chars" for textures and moving objects or for enhancing the corners of walls...

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[i can't imagine playing seriously something like Spectrum Doom. Yes, it's masterful piece of work but it can't be fun to play. Low screen resolution and slow fps rate would kill any game and especially 3D game. Let's create something useful!

 

I couldn't agree more! For me too, it's better to have "long time awaited", very playable classic game converted / newly developed for Atari 8-bit, rather than having sth with zero playability, just for the sake of it. It's enough just to mention great Dyna Blaster, Yoomp, Crownland or now Jet Set Willy port from ZX.

 

Hopefully the IK+ conversion will be finished in some time in the future (the demo is playable, but the work on it seem to be freezed, for a long time :( ) More titles worth giving it a try? Last Ninja, Barbarian, (forget the LK Avalon's crap version), Wings of Fury and many others which would make for a lot of fun spent with Atari XL/XE. Guaranteed :cool:

Forget the Wolfensteins and Dooms, which can't even be properly ported on basic Atari/Amiga's 16-bit Motorola 68000, due to a lack of power.

 

Just an opinion ;)

Edited by Jacques

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Forget the Wolfensteins and Dooms, which can't even be properly ported on basic Atari/Amiga's 16-bit Motorola 68000, due to a lack of power.

Just an opinion ;)

 

I am kinda surprised that the ST and Amiga cannot do a first person game. Maybe the later Amiga models or TT/Falcon might be able to do it. I have been saying there is ways of working around slower CPUs to achieve a desired affect. One thing both systems still have sprite overlays like the Atari 8-bit to render monsters and stuff. I say don't go a full Doom clone right away, just try writing a decent first person perspective routine and build up from there.

Edited by peteym5

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There is an ST version of Woldenstein that is pretty faithful to the original - I played it on my MegaST 2 - however, agree on the 8bit port of these things - lets get fun games done. Where is Space Harrier :)

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Forget the Wolfensteins and Dooms, which can't even be properly ported on basic Atari/Amiga's 16-bit Motorola 68000, due to a lack of power.

 

Today no PC exists on that Crysis runs properly. A Quad Core PC with double high end 3D accellerators cannot prevent from some slowdowns.

Wolf 3D was very slow on a 386, where it was written for. I had a 486/33MHz where it run properly.

Really, the ST version is fair enough, belonging to the CPU and playable speed.

 

Look at C64 Mood.

 

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Oqz5WjDPI

 

The resolution is "half" of the "Vector" engine..... The ATARI offers near the double of CPU speed.

I mentioned it in an other thread: The C64 is using "CPU" to create this "50" lines mode. The ATARI don't need to put CPU into creating a compareable mode. That's why the ATARI really has even (more than) the double of cpu speed available for the same graphics.

 

Half resolution.... double speed? Why does no game exist that is 4 times faster than mood?

 

.... if you know what I mean ;-)

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Wolf 3D was very slow on a 386, where it was written for. I had a 486/33MHz where it run properly.

Really, the ST version is fair enough, belonging to the CPU and playable speed.

 

No way Wolf was slow on 386. You must have meant 286 at 16 Mhz, but even on such machine it was just playable.

 

ST version, Yes... Worse gfx than on PC and 15 FPS in the demo-version I think You're talking about. That's what You get on 68000 @ 8 Mhz.

 

The Mega STs had the CPU running @ 16 Mhz, so this had to be quicker.

 

But pure ST/Amiga (500) are not powerful enough for the C2P routines, so the end-result is less than satisfying in Wolf3D, not to mention Doom (works "just" fine on my Amiga 030 @ 50 Mhz + FPU - FULL SCREEN, but still on low detail.).

 

I don't change my mind. Real 3D is not reallistically possible to be playable on 8-bit and even on the first 16-bit machines.

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Mega ST 2 had same 8mhz processor - Mega STe was faster possibly.

 

It required 2 megs of ram to run though.

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Mega ST 2 had same 8mhz processor - Mega STe was faster possibly.

 

It required 2 megs of ram to run though.

 

That's the main point. The textures need memory. It would run on a standard ST but the 2MB RAM expansion is needed.

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Wolf 3D was very slow on a 386, where it was written for. I had a 486/33MHz where it run properly.

Really, the ST version is fair enough, belonging to the CPU and playable speed.

 

No way Wolf was slow on 386. You must have meant 286 at 16 Mhz, but even on such machine it was just playable.

 

???

 

Possibly on a 386 with a co processor or a 40MHz (and more) ?

 

I remember beeing bored everytime, to reduce the gamescreen for having a good framerate. On the 486/33 the game ran with full details and screensize without any slowdowns.

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Emkay: I had Amiga 500 at the time, but I remember the computer magazines claiming that Wolf3D was running fine on AT (286) @ 16 MHz and 2 MB RAM, which I firmly believe is true, considering the simplicity of this engine. So I'm really sure it was 25+ FPS on 386. By the way, DOOM was said to be working okay on 386 DX 40 Mhz (and so it is on my 030 Amiga @ 50 MHz, + remember the C2P routines, which PC doesn't need to do, unlike Amiga!) . So I see no reason why You needed 486 to get Wolfenstein 3D working with no slowdowns :?: While 486 was really good for Doom back then... A bit shocked, to be honest ;)

Edited by Jacques

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This also depends on what video card, the type of card slot use, and the video memory available. The original VGA cards were either ISA, PCI, or VESA [EDIT}. ISA would have been a slower bus. Some might have fast blitters or early acceleration features. Wolfenstein did not push for 3D accelerator because those did not pop up 'till after Doom. Think it used 320x200x256 color mode. The PC also did it with no sprite overlays, the stuff was all blitted onto the screen. Actually I think Doom and other similar games is what prompt Voodoo to create the first 3D accelerator.

 

The ST, TT, and Amiga could make up for it with using sprites for the monsters, the weapon in hand, etc. I am not sure how fast the blitter chips were on those computers.

Edited by peteym5

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Wolfenstein run smooth with my 386/40 with tseng vga.

 

Right. 40Mhz was good. But even 33MHz with a Tseng ET4000 wasn't really fast enough for all details.

My 486PC had no ET4000 inside and was "stable" faster.

 

I mentioned the PC only for comparing the CPU speed to the 8MHz Motorola.

I'd say, the ST version plays like a 16MHz 386 PC.

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Wolf3D was pretty playable ("smooth & fast") on 286.. it only needed MHz.. so 25MHz 286 was playable but 16MHz 386 not.

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The ST, TT, and Amiga could make up for it with using sprites for the monsters, the weapon in hand, etc. I am not sure how fast the blitter chips were on those computers.

Sorry, Guys, but Atari TT have not blitter.

O.k. -> my point of view. I saw working engine of "Vector" made by Fox. It's enought to take good playabilyty, but with no-textures or low details textures.

I think, that on little Atari will be possible ported game like Wolfenstain or Doom, but with no textures. You think, that is stupid idea....? I don't think so: look at the ST games Substation (STE and Falcon only). On clear STE working fine - and, I think - if You want good 3D shooter game for 8-bit Ataris - you can think about games likes Substation - it is fast (for slowest machines) and look better (in low resolution and limits of color) then textureds games. What do You think about it?

Edited by Sikor

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Forget the Wolfensteins and Dooms, which can't even be properly ported on basic Atari/Amiga's 16-bit Motorola 68000, due to a lack of power.

Just an opinion ;)

 

I am kinda surprised that the ST and Amiga cannot do a first person game. Maybe the later Amiga models or TT/Falcon might be able to do it. I have been saying there is ways of working around slower CPUs to achieve a desired affect. One thing both systems still have sprite overlays like the Atari 8-bit to render monsters and stuff. I say don't go a full Doom clone right away, just try writing a decent first person perspective routine and build up from there.

The reason ST and Amiga doesn't have a decent 3d shooter is the organiyation of their graphics - they use bitplans instead of bitmap, which is good for (hardware assisted) parallax scrolling, but not for software rendering. And AFAIK, ST doesn't even have sprites.

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Wolfenstein run smooth with my 386/40 with tseng vga.

 

Right. 40Mhz was good. But even 33MHz with a Tseng ET4000 wasn't really fast enough for all details.

My 486PC had no ET4000 inside and was "stable" faster.

 

I mentioned the PC only for comparing the CPU speed to the 8MHz Motorola.

I'd say, the ST version plays like a 16MHz 386 PC.

You must have mistaken this with Doom. It was playable on a 386/40, but the framerate wasn't very good (could have been around 15 fps). Only CPUs with an FPU (like 486DX) could handle it fluently. Also if you only had 4 MB of RAM, you would experience long loading times on start of the game and between levels.

On the other hand, Wolf3D was pretty fluent on a faster 286 (16 or 20 MHz).

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I guess why there are not so many good 3d textured games on ST and even on amiga is the interleaved bitplane organisation on ST and the bitplanes on standard amiga... but there are c2p routines but they all need RAM and unrolled code...and could it not be that the CPU or BUS speed is too slow for quick rendering even if A1200 would have chunky-mode?

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I' ve uploaded a video of my falcon running the wolf3d ST port. I' ve also played it on STEEM in the past and it was very playable. Be sure to visit ray's page. I am not sure if wolf3d on A8 would be anything more than a proof of concept but I really like this discussion :).

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You must have mistaken this with Doom. It was playable on a 386/40, but the framerate wasn't very good (could have been around 15 fps). Only CPUs with an FPU (like 486DX) could handle it fluently. Also if you only had 4 MB of RAM, you would experience long loading times on start of the game and between levels.

On the other hand, Wolf3D was pretty fluent on a faster 286 (16 or 20 MHz).

 

No?

 

Doom ran firstly in full speed and full detail and without slowdowns on a Vesa Local Bus DX2/66 PC.

Wolf 3D was "fluent" when the 3d-screen size was heavily decreased.... on a 25MHz 386.

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I would love to see all the energy that goes into this pointless (and silly) discussion spent on something useful, like discussing how to do something on A8.

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