emkay Posted December 7, 2007 Author Share Posted December 7, 2007 (edited) I would love to see all the energy that goes into this pointless (and silly) discussion spent on something useful, like discussing how to do something on A8. Isn't it? My intention was to talk about, doing something like "Vector" with a lower resolution, but with more visuable elements on the screen. Reducing the A8 to a display of 256( 32byte )x100(doubled to 200) pixel will give more time to calculate the game itself. In the "VBI", the cpu is really 1,9x of the C64 speed. Really, use the emulator of a C64, run mood and play with 200% of the C64 speed. MOOD gets really fluent then. Edited December 7, 2007 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 I would love to see all the energy that goes into this pointless (and silly) discussion spent on something useful, like discussing how to do something on A8. Isn't it? My intention was to talk about, doing something like "Vector" with a lower resolution, but with more visuable elements on the screen. Reducing the A8 to a display of 256( 32byte )x100(doubled to 200) pixel will give more time to calculate the game itself. In the "VBI", the cpu is really 1,9x of the C64 speed. Really, use the emulator of a C64, run mood and play with 200% of the C64 speed. MOOD gets really fluent then. MOOD use text mode in combination with 1x4 set font that combines all color possibilities. If Atari want to do something similar should have to use the multicolor text mode with GTIA active to get that 1x4 (or better still 2x4) pixels combinations per char (with 9 colors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Amiga500 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 I admire the insanity of trying to get DOOM on an A8, but is it really worth all the work? I think there's a point where the effort required far surpasses the usefulness. Sure... after a few hundred hours work you could say, "I've got DOOM on my Atari 800!!!1" but what you've really got is just an unplayable (or barely playable) DOOM-like demo. It's not really DOOM. I play DOOM regularly on my Amiga 500 (with 68020), and I think it's impressive to say, "I've got DOOM on my Amiga 500!!!1", but when you really think about it - so what? If I didn't have DOOM on my A500, I could just dig an old PC out of the trash and install DOOM on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Atari have his own "doom" clone (without textures) called MIDIMAZE. But really it's interesting to see new clones more advanced in the same way as Vector did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eru Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 I tried to find MidiMaze - it's not on AtariMania nor atari.online.pl. Could someone please point me to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Atari have his own "doom" clone (without textures) called MIDIMAZE. But really it's interesting to see new clones more advanced in the same way as Vector did it. Midi Maze isn't Doom without textures, it's Wolfenstein 3D without textures (but with deathmatch). Frankly, I'd rather play WayOut or Capture the Flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 (edited) I tried to find MidiMaze - it's not on AtariMania nor atari.online.pl. Could someone please point me to it? http://www.atariprotos.com/8bit/software/m...ze/midimaze.htm I think a order can be placed writing at markdil@ix.netcom.com Edited December 7, 2007 by Allas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 I am not sure why people are rejecting my ideal of using a character mapped screen that could render the screen much quicker. I admit you probably will have enough characters to do a few textures. One additional option here is mirror the top and bottom with flipping the characters upside down for the bottom half. There is a register that allows that. Only issue you is whatever you draw on the ceiling will be on the floor. Had a thought about the APAC option using full bitmap resolution. It might be possible to do faster APAC style screen using less CPU time, but would require a DLI just about on every line of the intended screen area. The only thing that gets changed is the GTIA PRIOR register and alternate low byte of the DLI pointer (512). Set the DLIHI once. The DLI routines are short enough to all fit in the same page. If I am not mistaken, we only have to do maybe 120 to 140 scan lines. This should leave a significant number of CPU cycles to manipulate the screen data. I do agree that DOOM or Wolf3D is probably alittle much to be handled by an Atari 8-bit. Could we go for a much simpler first person shooter type game to start with? Has anyone consider doing this as a game for a 65816 upgrade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 MOOD use text mode in combination with 1x4 set font that combines all color possibilities. No it doesn't, the screen is in bitmap mode and it's generating everything from the colour RAM whilst using a half FLI routine to get colour updates every four scanlines instead of every eight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 With what was saying about what PCs ran Wolf3D and Doom earlier, would like to say it took at least '286 @ 16 MHZ to run these games. I have said the VGA card and connection is also a factor. It is argumentative what it takes to run on an Amiga or 16 bit Atari, the 68000 series processor cannot be compared at the same speed of '286 or '386. Those computers also divided the graphics processing onto separate ICs Every new generation of processor on the PC took less clock cycles to perform ML operations and beyond the '486, all the CPUs had built in floating point. Later video cards on the PC started to do co-processing like 3D accelerators and started to use blitters. (EGA and some first generation VGA did everything via the main CPU). This should show you what it takes at the minimum to do 3D. It IS going to be a huge challenge to do it on an Atari 8-bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 8, 2007 Author Share Posted December 8, 2007 With what was saying about what PCs ran Wolf3D and Doom earlier, would like to say it took at least '286 @ 16 MHZ to run these games. I have said the VGA card and connection is also a factor. It is argumentative what it takes to run on an Amiga or 16 bit Atari, the 68000 series processor cannot be compared at the same speed of '286 or '386. Those computers also divided the graphics processing onto separate ICs Every new generation of processor on the PC took less clock cycles to perform ML operations and beyond the '486, all the CPUs had built in floating point. Later video cards on the PC started to do co-processing like 3D accelerators and started to use blitters. (EGA and some first generation VGA did everything via the main CPU). This should show you what it takes at the minimum to do 3D. It IS going to be a huge challenge to do it on an Atari 8-bit. We know about that facts. But, particular for AMIGA, you have to make a difference between the using of Fast Memory and Chip Memory only. And... even though... "Mood" exists, Doom for speccy exists.... Doom for NES exists ... and thy are playable. Whether fun or not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 With what was saying about what PCs ran Wolf3D and Doom earlier, would like to say it took at least '286 @ 16 MHZ to run these games. I have said the VGA card and connection is also a factor. It is argumentative what it takes to run on an Amiga or 16 bit Atari, the 68000 series processor cannot be compared at the same speed of '286 or '386. The 68000 CPU can be compared to the 286, but the CPU is not the problem. That bitplane graphics is the problem, since it multiplies what the CPU has to do. Those computers also divided the graphics processing onto separate ICs Every new generation of processor on the PC took less clock cycles to perform ML operations and beyond the '486, all the CPUs had built in floating point. Later video cards on the PC started to do co-processing like 3D accelerators and started to use blitters. (EGA and some first generation VGA did everything via the main CPU). This should show you what it takes at the minimum to do 3D. It IS going to be a huge challenge to do it on an Atari 8-bit. All that GPU stuff is not used for W3D or Doom. Both games are 100% CPU games relying on a chunky pixel display. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 And... even though... "Mood" exists, Doom for speccy exists.... Doom for NES exists ... and thy are playable. Whether fun or not... Because we all want games that are at a playable speed but not actually any fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 I say this will be a good project for a 65816 upgrade and possibly the Videoboard XE (IF it ever becomes available) . Doing it all on a 6502 Antic/GTIA is going to limited to what you can see. You are going to have limited wall textures and low frame rate. I had a few suggestions about how to get better speed with using Antic 4 (graphics 12) mode and single line PM graphics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 8, 2007 Author Share Posted December 8, 2007 And... even though... "Mood" exists, Doom for speccy exists.... Doom for NES exists ... and thy are playable. Whether fun or not... Because we all want games that are at a playable speed but not actually any fun... What to say Port Mood to the ATARI to have most playable fun? After having an improvement over 50-100% in framerate, you can chose to make different level styles. Possibly with a 16 colour mode and some brightness overlay Possibly with a 16 luminances mode, having some objects coloured by PMg Possibly with a 9 colour mode and enhanced details by PMG Possibly with a 4 colour mode and 5 colour PMG overlay Possibly with a 1 1/2 colour mode with full PM overlay Possibly some 2 line mode for "realtime" travelling through wormholes... Finally: Possibly with all together in a story that explains something around some Sun problems... The Atari has so much to offer, but so less people with imaginations around it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 Port Mood to the ATARI to have most playable fun? Possibly with a 16 luminances mode becomes: Yes this looks like total fun to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 8, 2007 Author Share Posted December 8, 2007 Port Mood to the ATARI to have most playable fun? Possibly with a 16 luminances mode becomes: Yes this looks like total fun to me. If you like this intentional worse example Not to mention that you left out the possibility of using DLIs and different graphicsmodes at one screen and interchanging them when needed... This time it's about "mood" and that there are "capabilites" on the A8 for enhancing the game... in speed and in colours. If you want to see more details, the hires solution with 256x100(200) is still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 And... even though... "Mood" exists, Doom for speccy exists.... Doom for NES exists ... and thy are playable. Whether fun or not... Because we all want games that are at a playable speed but not actually any fun... What to say How about "it's a crap idea, lets do games that push the hardware and are fun to play". That would be a good thing to say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted December 8, 2007 Author Share Posted December 8, 2007 And... even though... "Mood" exists, Doom for speccy exists.... Doom for NES exists ... and thy are playable. Whether fun or not... Because we all want games that are at a playable speed but not actually any fun... What to say How about "it's a crap idea, lets do games that push the hardware and are fun to play". That would be a good thing to say... Hm.... that's the intention of this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 And... even though... "Mood" exists, Doom for speccy exists.... Doom for NES exists ... and thy are playable. Whether fun or not... Because we all want games that are at a playable speed but not actually any fun... What to say How about "it's a crap idea, lets do games that push the hardware and are fun to play". That would be a good thing to say... Hm.... that's the intention of this thread No, the intention of this thread, at least based on what has gone before, is to discuss the technical merits of doing it, actually producing any variation on the themes discussed may well be possible but that's nowhere near the same thing as producing a game that will be fun to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Sprite Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 What if you pulled a Ballblazer? Only allow turns at sharp 90 degree angles, with foward and backward movement, plus left and right strafe being the primary way of moving? This simplifies calculations needed to display the playfield - if levels were adapted around it, it'd be like Doom was designed as an 8 bit original, with the original versions just adding more eye candy to the experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Sprite Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Or, you could do this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 What a tedious video. I briefly played that game yesterday - I'm more a fan of non-cumbersome mobile games where you don't use an array of keys. Alternate Reality - The xxxx That would be a good game engine for an AR sequel on the Atari. As for Doom. My opinion is - if the C64 has one, then we have to as well. A slower machine, plus it's quite likely doing color RAM operations as well - so it would run quicker on the A8. Although the obvious "playfield leveller" might be the sprites. I still stand by a Gr. 10 type mode. 80 (or 64) pixels wide, using 3 or 4 scanlines high. The view portal height would mainly be dictated by just how efficient the game engine is made. We also have the advantage of 126K RAM (130XE). If it is the case that the only way the game can be made playable is by using massively inline code, then so be it. Those without 128K machines always have the emulator option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 My intention was to talk about, doing something like "Vector" with a lower resolution, but with more visuable elements on the screen. ----- Err well, afaik the dungeon scenes of Vector (or Numen) have a resolution of 80x48 pixels... lower resolution for DOOM XL ?!? Do you want to play in textmode with 40x24 pixels or what ?!? The reolution of Vector is already so low, that it is hard to notice what`s a spider, what`s a guard, etc. For me it would be nice to have an updated version of "Way out" or "Capture the Flag" or "Midimaze". If we would call that Doom or Wolf3d then does not matter to me... Maybe a very good coder could even do a multilink/gamelink version of it (like Maze of Agdagon, Speed up, Multi-Race, etc.)... But the final game should run on a 64k or max. 128k Atari and should not require megabytes of eXtra RAM... (it could be a single file or a multi-load bootdisk)... -Andreas Koch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorisabouttodie Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 (edited) Mood looks like it might be fun, it doesnt seem so slow. Has anyone actually played it on a Commodore 64? Something like that on the 8bit Atari would be cool. You guys sound so funny to me... "why do a FPS on the atari xe?" why do anything on an Atari xe? Because it's a challenge for the programmer and (hopefully) a fun game to play. There is no game you couldn't do better on even a 10 year old pc from the local dump, but who cares? There is something really cool about playing for example Another World on a 8bit even though it looks a million times better on the amiga, just because that game is not supposed to be possible on the Atari... same thing with Mood, its amazing that they pulled that off. Anyway that is my opinion. BTW why doesnt someone make a Sinistar for the 8bit? It will probably come out sooner than the rumored prototype from 2 years ago... Edited December 9, 2007 by Warriorisabouttodie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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