PC with an Atari 800 Keyboard

[UNIXcoffee928]

Has anyone done this?

 

I have an extra 800 keyboard, and would really enjoy using it as the keyboard on my PC.

 

It would need to be a hardware hybrid of a current ps2 or USB PC keyboard & the 800 keyboard, to support the modern PC keys, using the PC keyboard's on-board controller electronics.

 

I have a few ideas about how to go about doing this, but instead of re-inventing the wheel, I thought that I'd ask here first.

 

Any ideas about making such a hybrid keyboard would be welcomed, as would matrix info for the non-XL keyboard, and other relevant info. I'm planning on using the CX-85 external numeric keypad, as well, to give the whole thing a real Atari feel.

 

 

Thanks!

[Rybags]

There's an interface to allow using a PC keyboard on the Atari, and I believe it uses a PIC.

 

The requirement might be the same doing it the other way - I imagine the Atari key matrix would be sufficiently different to a PC KB that you couldn't just hook one up and have it work.

 

Some POKEY schematics have the keyboard matrix layout - remember that the Atari KB is actually scanned by POKEY via 3 bits of row select via multiplexors for input and output (giving 8x8=64 keycap combinations, plus SHIFT, CTRL and Break).

Edited January 12, 2008 by Rybags

[supercat]

The requirement might be the same doing it the other way - I imagine the Atari key matrix would be sufficiently different to a PC KB that you couldn't just hook one up and have it work.

 

I would expect that it should probably be possible to wire an Atari 800 keyboard to the controller chip from a PC keyboard and have it work, provided that one had a suitable driver on the PC to remap all the keycodes. If the Atari's shift and control keys are wired outside the matrix, that would help enormously. Otherwise one would have to try to wire things so that they'd line up with modifier keys for a PC keyboard. That's probably possible, but without seeing the matrices of the Atari and PC keyboards I can't say for sure.

[Rybags]

Key matrix of Atari 8-bit computers
K2 K1 K0 → 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 
K5 K4 K3 ↓ KR1 KR2 
0 0 0 A S G Caps   D H F   
0 0 1 > < 8 Backspace 7 0   9 Break 
0 1 0 Q W T Tab Y E   R   
0 1 1 Inverse / M   N . Space ,   
1 0 0 1 2 5 Esc 6 3   4   
1 0 1 Z X B F4 F3 C Help V Shift 
1 1 0 = - I Return U P   O   
1 1 1 * + K F2 F1; J L Control

 

Well, that didn't exactly work.

 

Open the keyboard.xml file within this zip file - it has the key matrix.pokeydoc.zip

[supercat]

I couldn't get the xml file to view, but in your picture it looks like control and shift are in the same column. For the thing to work with a PC controller, you'd have to find a keyboard which has two modifier keys in the same row or column. I would guess some PC keyboards are wired that way, though I'm not sure.

 

BTW, I wonder why computers have complicated keyboard hardware. Given two decoded I/O addresses, why not just use two 74LS373 chips, along with eight pull-up resistors and maybe eight diodes? Use one chip to drive keyboard rows and the other to sense columns. Since a 74LS138 can convert a single address decode signal into eight decoded addresses, in most systems the most one would have to add would be an extra 74LS138. So three chips and the keyboard interface is done. Why bother with all the other goofiness?

[Rybags]

Isn't that what Atari does anyway, in a sense?

 

Compare it to the C-64. Although more versatile, it has to do it in software, plus it is at the cost of 16 I/O lines rather than only 6.

 

Of course, POKEY has the disadvantage of only sensing one keypress. But the advantage to the OS is that almost the entire system is automated.

[supercat]

Compare it to the C-64. Although more versatile, it has to do it in software, plus it is at the cost of 16 I/O lines rather than only 6.

 

If there's an address decode available, using two 74LS273's will give you the keyboard at the cost of zero I/O lines. And if there aren't any spare address decodes available, but one of the address decodes you do have has some unused address space (very common) then adding a 74LS138 will give you four pairs of read/write addresses (of which you could use one pair for the keyboard 74LS273's).

 

Of course, POKEY has the disadvantage of only sensing one keypress. But the advantage to the OS is that almost the entire system is automated.

 

Sure, if you add hardware you can automate keyboard scanning. But what's the point? A few hundred bytes of ROM are cheaper than a bunch of extra chips.

 

BTW, on a more general note: why did a lot of microcomputers use I/O chips for ports which were input-only or output-only? I understand that implementing bidirectional I/O ports or timers with discrete logic is difficult, but an 8-bit input-only or output-only port can be replaced by just a 74HC273, so why not?

Edited January 12, 2008 by supercat

[Pengwin]

If there is a relatively easy way to do this, I would be very interested as I am looking to put a laptop into an 800XL case at some point in the future.

[mimo]

If there is a relatively easy way to do this, I would be very interested as I am looking to put a laptop into an 800XL case at some point in the future.

Me too, well in a 400 or 800 case, not decided yet

[Mr.Amiga500]

If there is a relatively easy way to do this, I would be very interested as I am looking to put a laptop into an 800XL case at some point in the future.

 

That is exactly what I was thinking of doing a couple years ago with my dead 800XL. I also wanted to have one of those video cards capable of output to TV so I could just hook it up to any TV - just like in the old days.

 

Eventually I gave up the idea as an exercise in futility. After all the pain and effort, it would just be a boring Windows or Linux PC in a nice case.

 

 

Edit: But now that I think about it again, maybe it would be a neat idea. You could have a whole bunch of different emulators on the thing (MAME, Atari, C64, Amiga, etc) and play the games on TV like they were meant to be seen (well at least better than VGA monitor). You could use USB joysticks like the Competition PRO USB. And you could always switch back to Linux (or..ug..Windows) and download more games. (or use it like a boring PC if you must)

 

I think a problem is lack of function keys/control keys on the 800XL keyboard. There would be some OS functions you couldn't access.

Edited January 14, 2008 by Mr.Amiga500

[Rybags]

You'd (as mentioned before) almost certainly need a microcontroller to do translation and communication to the PS2 port anyway, so it would be quite possible to just find a similar PC keyboard and just rip the function keys off that.

 

But, end result would be a cut-down PC keyboard anyway.

 

Better option might just be to get one of those cheapy remote keyboards (I got one for about $25).

 

They have all the keys you need, minus the Numpad, and are barely bigger than an 800 keyboard anyway.

[Noelio]

You can always do what I did... But only do it if your machine is TOAST!!!!! I don't condone the ripping apart of good machines! Hehehe.

If you want to use your own keyboard, perhaps a few of these hand wired arcade interfaces in a series could help but youd have to wire and solder each key.

That's the only other way I know and its wayyyyy too much work if you ask me@!

Interface board: http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html

 

My 1200XL ITX PC below...

Edited January 14, 2008 by Noelio

[mimo]

That kb looks ok, do you know the manufacturer/model number?

[Mr.Amiga500]

You can always do what I did...

...

My 1200XL ITX PC below...

Yes, that's very interesting. It looks like you put a lot of work into it. Well done.

 

I'd rather keep the 1200XL keyboard though. It's the nice solid plastic of the old keys that I like. Without that, it doesn't quite make it for me. (...but that's me)

 

The 1050 change is a neat idea too. (...except for the fact that I hate optical drives.. but that's my problem I'd probably put something else into the 1050 case and keep the floppy faceplate)

Edited January 14, 2008 by Mr.Amiga500

[Pengwin]

My idea is also to try to keep the existing keyboard. Although I would keep the keyboard socket of the laptop so that I could plug in an external keyboard should I require the full functionality.

[Noelio]

It's a cheap chinese made kb by a company called "MCINDUSTRIES".

Found them on ebay... It's a usb keyboard that I have connected inside to a usb header from the mobo. I also connected a 'stelladaptor' to the native joystick ports to support the atari joystick int he atari emus.

 

I too would have preferred to use an original keyboard. Heck the mouse can cover just about anything missing from the lack of keys.

 

If we could find a good fairly simple way to use the 8 bit keyboards via ps2 or usb I'd quickly put some dead 600xls (perfect for a pc keyboard!) on desktops around the house and office hahaha!

 

 

That kb looks ok, do you know the manufacturer/model number?

Edited January 15, 2008 by Noelio

[Rybags]

Thought it looked familiar.

 

I've got that exact keyboard, although mine's the wireless model. Bought it as a space saver so that I can (one of these days) put away the keyboard of my second machine.

[+davidcalgary29]

Necrobump! 
 

Has anyone fiddled around with this idea more? Looking for an XL PS/2 keyboard to go with the 1088XLD.

[Swami]

On 1/11/2008 at 7:23 PM, UNIXcoffee928 said:

Has anyone done this?

 

I have an extra 800 keyboard, and would really enjoy using it as the keyboard on my PC.

 

It would need to be a hardware hybrid of a current ps2 or USB PC keyboard & the 800 keyboard, to support the modern PC keys, using the PC keyboard's on-board controller electronics.

 

I have a few ideas about how to go about doing this, but instead of re-inventing the wheel, I thought that I'd ask here first.

 

Any ideas about making such a hybrid keyboard would be welcomed, as would matrix info for the non-XL keyboard, and other relevant info. I'm planning on using the CX-85 external numeric keypad, as well, to give the whole thing a real Atari feel.

 

 

Thanks!

The real question here is whether you intend to use as a laptop or just stick the laptop guts inside. I'd love to see the 800XL laptop, but that sound more like a 3D printer thing.

 

{Notices the necrobump} Of course, probably no affordable 3D printers in 2008 and no 800XL laptop 12 years later, AFAIK.

[spspspsp]

I did this a few years ago. It is relatively easy with a diagram of the keyboard matrix and a Teensy 2.0 (which, incidentally, is what many homemade and firmware programmable mechanical keyboards use).

 

There is another thread somewhere where Candle did something similar with an 800XL keyboard, but using a Teensy 2.0 is going to be far easier and more functional for most people.

[spspspsp]

This is what I used for for my Teensy code using the Arduino IDE. There are some extra bits in there relating to an LED. Ignore that.

Atari800_Keyboard_LED.ino

Edited January 7, 2020 by spspspsp

[+davidcalgary29]

I have an 800 laptop, but I really wanted a PS/2 mechanical keyboard to match the style of the 1088. 

Some Japanese company showed off a 400 USB keyboard in 2011, but they’ve disappeared now.

[iot4c]

This is my variant for 65(130)XE. Main goals was to keep native mode, do not make any drilling in the Atari body case, do not touch the Atari scheme

https://camper-assistant.com/atrkb.html

 

looks like can be used with 800 with not alot modification.

[Gunstar]

On 1/6/2020 at 7:33 PM, Swami said:

The real question here is whether you intend to use as a laptop or just stick the laptop guts inside. I'd love to see the 800XL laptop, but that sound more like a 3D printer thing.

 

{Notices the necrobump} Of course, probably no affordable 3D printers in 2008 and no 800XL laptop 12 years later, AFAIK.

I found this picture of a real XL laptop a while back, I have it set as one of my many Atari computer wallpapers. I don't know the story behind it, but I doubt it was done with a 3D printer. I think this is a hack special with a combination of laptop and real XL case parts professionally "melded."

[Swami]

5 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

I found this picture of a real XL laptop a while back, I have it set as one of my many Atari computer wallpapers. I don't know the story behind it, but I doubt it was done with a 3D printer. I think this is a hack special with a combination of laptop and real XL case parts professionally "melded."

Wild! Love it.