SloeGin Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 I've tried fixing my Jaguar CD using every tip I could find on the internet. I even replaced the laser transport, but nothing has revived or improved the Jag CD's operation. It's doing all the same things it was doing before I started working on it. All mechanical aspects of the CD drive are sound: the motors on the transport work fine and connections between the transport and motherboard pass continuity checks. At this point, I can only assume something on the motherboard is fried. I bought the drive in Jan '99 for $58. Videos of my Jaguar acting nutty while trying to play a music CD: Video 1: Video 2: (much worse)Video 3: Video 4: Video 5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symmetry of TNG Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Hi! just thought... dont understand how the disc could start to spin the other way.. ? if the jag is anything like a normal cdplayer of today that is just a DC motor... that spins one way... Unless the polarity is reversed.... IIRC there are some DC stabilising cirquits (7809 ? or 7805 ?) inside the unit.. that btw on my cdrom gets realy hot (no wonder they hets fed with dc14V or so from the 9V adapter) .... But perhapps you have a PowerSupply problem ?.... some of the stabilising cirquits gives rippeled dc to all chips... that could explain crazy behaviour... ! do you have an oscilloscope to test the stability/polarity of some of the supplypoints? (dc engine, some known chips perhapps... and so on.. see that the power supply is stable) just a thought... /Sym Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerosquare Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 just thought... dont understand how the disc could start to spin the other way.. ? if the jag is anything like a normal cdplayer of today that is just a DC motor... that spins one way... Unless the polarity is reversed....I've seen other defective CD players do this, too. If you think about it, it makes senses that the motor driver can output both polarities, as the disc rotation speed is controlled by a feedback loop. If the speed is too great, reversing the polarity will make the motor decelerate faster than waiting for it to slow down by itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloeGin Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 Hi! do you have an oscilloscope to test the stability/polarity of some of the supplypoints? (dc engine, some known chips perhapps... and so on.. see that the power supply is stable) /Sym I do have access to an oscilloscope, but using it to troubleshoot electrical issues breaches my limited knowledge of electronics. I might be able to get someone at my work to help out, though. Thanks for the suggestion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symmetry of TNG Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 (edited) 0^2: ahh.. offcourse =) but my main point is still valid... if the power to all chips is corrupted than all logic will not applye.. and feedback loop will detect wrong error & spin disc in arbitrary direction =) and make the laser missread data, motors to go berserk.. =) and, as i forgot to say, my own CD works great, unless you play it for a long time (in 27degrees.. actually did that one summer =) then it gets so hot (underneeth, towards the connector iirc) that it cant read the CDs at all... cooling it down and it works again... It was just a thought.... if all the other "fixes" on the net didnt solve it.. I was just speculating =) a jagcd is worth saving.. its part of jaguar history! and thats always worth aving! =) cheers /Sym Edited January 18, 2008 by Symmetry of TNG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloeGin Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 just thought... dont understand how the disc could start to spin the other way.. ? if the jag is anything like a normal cdplayer of today that is just a DC motor... that spins one way... Unless the polarity is reversed....I've seen other defective CD players do this, too. If you think about it, it makes senses that the motor driver can output both polarities, as the disc rotation speed is controlled by a feedback loop. If the speed is too great, reversing the polarity will make the motor decelerate faster than waiting for it to slow down by itself. That makes sense. When trying to get the drive to read a CD I would notice quick changes in rotation speed (typical behavior when a CD drive is having trouble reading a disc). I figured the only way it was able to throttle down the speed so quickly was to give it a quick zap of juice with polarity reversed. I've only seen the CD drive spin backwards once, and it just happened to be when I was recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloeGin Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 but my main point is still valid... if the power to all chips is corrupted than all logic will not applye.. and feedback loop will detect wrong error & spin disc in arbitrary direction =) and make the laser missread data, motors to go berserk.. =)/Sym Indeed. While watching the crazy antics of the drive, it became pretty clear that the left hand didn't know what the right was doing. Watching the cd spin backwards just made it that more obvious. Hopefully someone at work can give me a crash course on the oscilloscope. I'd really like to save my jagcd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ovalbugmann Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Don't feel bad dude, I have a JaguarCD Player doing ALL those exact same things, after I replaced the CD transport with a brand new VAM1202 (Phillips CDM12.1 replacement) My JagCD was clicking after a few minutes of perfect operation and then clickety clickety click...stop!, so I replaced the CD pickup unit (the transport) and to my amazement it did the exact same thing again!, clicking and stopping of playing after about 3-4 minutes or less. Although, I suspected the leaf switch very near the main motor, they seem to be fine. I took the unit apart, for the 20th time, after pulling the plug when it was clicking. And I found that the leaf switch was engaged (both leafs touching each other) and it's at this point that it malfunctions. The laser eye clicks - moving up & down, and the gears click too - two different sounds. Sometimes upon powering up the CD spins counterclockwise when normally it should spin clockwise. Of course all this results in choppy audio & video. The weirdest thing about it, is that malfunctions usually happen after a few minutes of good operation, on the first power up, then immediately on subsequent power-ups. To get a few minutes of good operation again, I must wait until the unit cools down after only being just slightly warm and/or disconnect the players' power supply from the back and reconnect it. I have done continuity checks, checked my soldering of the six point wiring harness and compared the leaf switch positioning with other transports. I've used a transport that malfunctions in my troubled JagCD player, in my working JagCD player, and it works just FINE. So, because of this, I've come to the exact same logical conclusion as you have: something on the Motherboard is ****ed. How I am going to find what is wrong on the MoBo I don't know....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloeGin Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 I've used a transport that malfunctions in my troubled JagCD player, in my working JagCD player, and it works just FINE. So, because of this, I've come to the exact same logical conclusion as you have: something on the Motherboard is ****ed. How I am going to find what is wrong on the MoBo I don't know....... I'm taking Symmetry's suggestion and am going to check supply points for any noise. I had a buddy at work show me how to use the oscilloscope so hopefully I'll be able do some checking over the weekend. Right now I can only think of checking the PSU and the two voltage regulators next to the wiring harness plug. Can anyone recommend other specific points to check voltage, or point me to some online documentation? I don't know much about electronics, but I can monkey-see-monkey-do pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noelio Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Is it possible that cartridge port pins (in the jaguar itself) maybe crossed or damaged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloeGin Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 Is it possible that cartridge port pins (in the jaguar itself) maybe crossed or damaged? I don't think the Jaguar's cartridge port is the issue since I don't have any problems playing carts when the CD unit is removed. When I attach the CD drive I get the usual Jaguar logo with all the VLM effects in the background. For whatever reason, the drive just can't read a CD. When I plugged the drive in a few days ago (for the first time in about 4 years) I was barely able to load up Hover Strike. The game loaded and played after about the fourth try, but the audio started skipping and dropping out. Then came the "excessive read errors" message. After that, I couldn't even get more than a few seconds of play out of an audio CD. In short: Jaguar = Jaguar CD = and possibly soon just plain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ovalbugmann Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 We need a schematic with a list of the on-board components or something? I've heard several other people having these problems with the JagCD Player, and have a feeling that the same thing is wrong with them all. So, if you have any luck diagnosing a faulty component with the oscillioscope or by other means, please post here to let me know so I can follow suit and expedite the removal and replacement of the culprit. I've read that Atari was not impressed with the quality of the JagCD upon production of the first 20,000 units and the, " Mean time to failure" (the units' life rating) was too low, it seemed fragile, and was under expectations. Phillips made the unit, and they usually have quality stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noelio Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) Perhaps it might be an idea for one of our resident geniuses to make a USB cartridge to support external IDE drives! Or a Jag to pc connection(if there isnt one already!) Edited January 19, 2008 by Noelio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broonale Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) When I've had a JagCD spin backwards, the problem was a loose power wire to the CD motor. Also, don't assume that Atari crimped the connectors correctly in the wiring plugs. Edited January 19, 2008 by Broonale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloeGin Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 I brought my jag cd up to work for testing. I checked out the power supply for both the Jaguar and the CD unit on the oscilloscope. Both PSUs output fairly clean electricity, but instead of outputting 9v (as they are labeled) they output 12v. I double-checked using a multimeter: The CD's PSU is outputting 12.83v and the Jaguar's PSU outputs 12.62v. If anyone has a multimeter, can you check your own Jag's PSU to see what voltage it's outputting? I'm curious to see how common this is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerosquare Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Nothing to worry about. Non-regulated power supplies such as the ones used on the Jag and the JagCD are designed to output the specified voltage at the specified current -- the output voltage with no load can be higher by as much as one third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downix Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 I might have schematics for it somewhere on my HD. I'll take a peek around when I get home monday for you, alright? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloeGin Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 Nothing to worry about. Non-regulated power supplies such as the ones used on the Jag and the JagCD are designed to output the specified voltage at the specified current -- the output voltage with no load can be higher by as much as one third. Thanks for the info. Just when I think I understand the limits of my knowledge, someone comes around and points out that I actually know even less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ovalbugmann Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 I might have schematics for it somewhere on my HD. I'll take a peek around when I get home monday for you, alright? Yeah, that would be great, check for those schematics for the JagCD, maybe they can be of some help in testing suspect MoBo components, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symmetry of TNG Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Yes.. that is what i wrote above (or tried to =) the psu gives 12V (i guessed 14V) ..and that I beleive is part of the problem why my drive gets so hot that they after 2 long gameplay, make the drive not read cds... I actually ment that you should measure the voltage stability After these stabilizing cirquits inside the CD.. to see how they appear... If the schematics are correct its the LM2941 chips I mean... But I mean you have to have quite deep knowhow to bughunt glitchy electronics... (its usually better if its totally dead, since then its usually a power issue) but semiworking... chance are that you might cause more problems that you solve.. (speaking in general terms here). But step one is to check Power... circuits should have stable supply voltage to work... and usually its easy to check power.. Looking at the schematics and i see that there are realy no "user serviceable parts" on them.. so after the power test...?... I can only speculate: -Is the cart clean? ...ok that other carts work fine I can imagine if the cart is dirty the data gets scrambeled on the way over to the jaguar..? -There should be some adress&data buffer cirquits in the jagcd.. that have been known to break after 10 years of service.. a broken buffer can scramble adresses and or data sent to/from the cd... but I guess the problem would be "constant" if say 1bit was wrong.. -All power stabilising cirquits use a larger Capacitor to store energy.. after time they tend to either boil out or dry out making the Power unstable.. (cf motherboards of today or the 360 =) ...but thankfully the jag was made in the Good-Old-days so this might not be an issue). -There is a chip that controls the magnetics (to focus the laser & find the track) that i beleive gets quite hot... perhapps that is broken & it cant find the track corectly? ...I have no idea if its replacable... -Is Laser Tweeking an issue with the jagCD? ....so the diode just got tiered ? ...but you tested the unit with another electronics & that workt, or did i missunderstand? ...(otherwies I strongly susgest you not to tweak, usually the diodes blow up). enough useless speculation =) good luck!...Avoid the ground /Sym Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ovalbugmann Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Thanks for the thoughts Symm, any speculation will help to problem solve these "semi-working" JagCDs in ways we may not have thought about yet. Yes it would be easier if they were totally dead- that would probably be a power issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerosquare Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 (edited) downix, Symmetry : where did you get the JagCD schematics ? I've never seen them on the usual Jag sites... EDIT : SCPCD answered my question, the schematics were on Glenn Bruner's website. Unfortunately, the link is broken and it has not been archived by Archive.org . Anyways, SCPCD sent me a copy of the file, here it is : jagcdrom.pdf Edited January 20, 2008 by Zerosquare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kid_vidiot Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I just bought a jag/jag cd off ebay and I would like some help troubleshooting. After hooking everything up I can get the cartridges to work but not the cd unit. I put a cd game in and absolutely nothing happens. I get the screen with the cd icon and the question mark but there is no noise from the jag cd, no spinning, no light - nothing. I switched the power units but it still doesn't do anything. If I put a cartridge in the jag cd it does work. Is this a dead motor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downix Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I just bought a jag/jag cd off ebay and I would like some help troubleshooting. After hooking everything up I can get the cartridges to work but not the cd unit. I put a cd game in and absolutely nothing happens. I get the screen with the cd icon and the question mark but there is no noise from the jag cd, no spinning, no light - nothing. I switched the power units but it still doesn't do anything. If I put a cartridge in the jag cd it does work. Is this a dead motor? could be something as simple as the wires came undone in transit. Does the CD spin up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broonale Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I just bought a jag/jag cd off ebay and I would like some help troubleshooting. After hooking everything up I can get the cartridges to work but not the cd unit. I put a cd game in and absolutely nothing happens. I get the screen with the cd icon and the question mark but there is no noise from the jag cd, no spinning, no light - nothing. I switched the power units but it still doesn't do anything. If I put a cartridge in the jag cd it does work. Is this a dead motor? could be something as simple as the wires came undone in transit. Does the CD spin up? Most likely, the spindle hub got pressed down and needs to be popped up a little. Does it spin freely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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