Will this hard disk work on my TT030/MSTE?

[Megamania]

I have found this SCSI hard disk and I thought I'd take it for my TT or Mega Ste:

 

Quantum Atlas II 3.5 series

4550S HN45S011 REV 01-C XLXY1

 

It's a 50-pin, SCSI 1, 4,5 GB hard disk.

 

It's very very cheap, so I might give it a try anyway, but what are the chances for it to work on my TT030 or Mega STE? What's the maximum capacity they can handle?

 

I wouldn't mind using just a small partition of the hard disk, if that's necessary/possible. At the moment I just have a 100MB disk on both systems, so even being able to use 1GB out of a 4GB disk would be a great improvement.

[jflemaire]

There are no reasons why the drive should not work. As for capacities, TOS can not handle partitions larger than 512 Mb on the TT, so you'll have to create 8 512 Mb partitions. More modern OSes (read MiNT and MagiC) do not have such limitations, you can use a 4.5 Gb partition with them.

 

In a nutshell: as long as you use modern software you can do whatever you want with virtually any drive you may find on the market. Under TOS and with the Atari hard disk driver, there are some limitations.

[ppera]

...Quantum Atlas II 3.5 series

4550S HN45S011 REV 01-C XLXY1

 

It's very very cheap, so I might give it a try anyway, but what are the chances for it to work on my TT030 or Mega STE? What's the maximum capacity they can handle?

 

I wouldn't mind using just a small partition of the hard disk, if that's necessary/possible. At the moment I just have a 100MB disk on both systems, so even being able to use 1GB out of a 4GB disk would be a great improvement.

 

Mega STE will see only 1GB. See this:

http://www.ppest.org/atari/astams.php

 

TT will see whole capacity (Limit is likely 2048GB). Partition size limits are 512 for Mega STE and 1GB for TT, with their regular TOS versions.

Even if you partition on TT, you may do it so, that MSTE will see first 1GB (for instance first 2 512MB partitions).

Or may try mod from link...

[jflemaire]

Mega STE will see only 1GB. See this:

Wrong. This is true only for ST(e).

TT will see whole capacity (Limit is likely 2048GB).

Actually, it's 8192 Gb for SCSI (with HDDRIVER). 2048 is for IDE drives.

Partition size limits are 512 for Mega STE and 1GB for TT, with their regular TOS versions.

Wrong again. Both the MegaSTe and TT are limited by TOS to 512 Mb. Only TOS 4.x (Falcon) can access 1 Gb.

[ppera]

....

Wrong. This is true only for ST(e).

...

 

What the f... you talk here? What SCSI adapter has ST(E) ?

Did you ever used mega STE ?

 

There is no 8GB SCSI limit, even no in Hddriver. Limit is 32-bit partition table.

 

Then: there is no 2048GB limit for IDE drives. As said, it is partition table limit. IDE drives (couple years old) may have 128GB limit, and latest have 48-bit addressing, so you may count how many GB is it...

[jflemaire]

What the f... you talk here? What SCSI adapter has ST(E) ?

Did you ever used mega STE ?

Did you ever heard of a ST to SCSI adaptor? I've got one in my Megafile 44, made by Atari.

There is no 8GB SCSI limit, even no in Hddriver. Limit is 32-bit partition table.

I never said that there was, si I don't see where you're going.

Then: there is no 2048GB limit for IDE drives.

There is one in HDDRIVER, as I wrote.

Anyway. All this is of no importance for Megamania, is it? The drive in question will work beautifully in his Atari and that's the important. May I suggest you brush up a bit on Atari hard drives usage?

And please try to read what was actually written before mis-interpreting what you obviously misunderstood.

[ppera]

jflemaire:

 

Here is talk about Mega STE.

You are someone with very limited knowledge, and worse, with high opinion about yourself.

What has with this thread that you have some megafile? + you talk about it as it is ST(E)'s limit, but we have lot of ACSI-SCSI adapters on market (better said we had) without 1GB limit. (ICD Pro for instance).

Fact is that built in adapter in Mega STE has 1GB capacity limit. If you don't believe me use google, visit some other Atari forum. Just don't believe all what you see, 'cause there is lot of BS around (mostly from shallow smartheads).

And may look at link what I gave, to see how it can be relatively simple overriden.

 

Then mixing driver, partition table and drive capacity limits. I just did not read correct your nonsense about 8192GB - how can it be so when partition table is max 2048 GB. Not to mention that it is never proven because no so big drive manufactured yet. And there is 32-bit addressing by SCSI drives. No 34-bit addressing, what would give 8 TB.

I tested latest Hddriver with 160GB IDE, and it worked not good over 128GB (what is old 28-bit LBA addressing), just to mention. But it can work, and no practical hardware capacity limit on (simple) IDE interfaces.

 

Maybe you are right about 512MB limit on TT. I don't have it, I just wrote according to what I read on some sites.

 

Finally, to repeat: 4.5 GB will not work on Mega STE, with internal adapter. Will be able to use only 1GB. You should not write about things what you did not test...

[Megamania]

Finally, to repeat: 4.5 GB will not work on Mega STE, with internal adapter. Will be able to use only 1GB.

Thanks guys.

 

I bought the hard disk (3 euros) but I don't have it yet. I'll try to install it in my TT030 first. I have the ICD Pro V 6.5.5 utilities and the Atari HDI 6.0.6.1 (a "repackaging" of the original disks).

 

Which one would you suggest to use? Any significant differences?

[jflemaire]

I bought the hard disk (3 euros) but I don't have it yet. I'll try to install it in my TT030 first. I have the ICD Pro V 6.5.5 utilities and the Atari HDI 6.0.6.1 (a "repackaging" of the original disks).

 

Which one would you suggest to use? Any significant differences?

ICD is more modern and implements stuff like XHDI so I'd definitely go with ICD.

[Megamania]

ICD is more modern and implements stuff like XHDI so I'd definitely go with ICD.

Ok, I'll go with ICD then.

 

I also realized I have a SCSI CD Rom and an Optical 44Mb removable drive (not an Atari Megafile, it's scsi if I remember correctly) in my cellar. I don't even remember if it came with the MSTE, the TT or the Falcon. I'll try to get them back up and running today... and I'll let you know.

 

Thanks!

[Megamania]

So, today I received two quantum 4,2 GB scsi hard disks.

 

I connected one of them to an external scsi box which is attached to my Falcon.

 

The hard disk was correctly recognized at boot, so I formatted and partitioned it to one big partition. I used the Atari Hard Disk Utilities because they are the ones I'm more comfortable with, and (more importantly) I have a problem with my floppy driver on the PC.

 

The drive was partitioned, but not accessible.

I tried to reduce the partition sizes to around 1GB (999MB to be on the safe side), so I ended up with 4 partitions of 999MB each, and left the remaining space as unused.

 

Things got better: I can now access 2 of the four partitions. That can be ok, but I'm wondering why? Is there any way I can access all 4 partitions?

[ppera]

So, today I received two quantum 4,2 GB scsi hard disks.

 

I connected one of them to an external scsi box which is attached to my Falcon.

 

The hard disk was correctly recognized at boot, so I formatted and partitioned it to one big partition. I used the Atari Hard Disk Utilities because they are the ones I'm more comfortable with, and (more importantly) I have a problem with my floppy driver on the PC.

 

The drive was partitioned, but not accessible.

I tried to reduce the partition sizes to around 1GB (999MB to be on the safe side), so I ended up with 4 partitions of 999MB each, and left the remaining space as unused.

 

Things got better: I can now access 2 of the four partitions. That can be ok, but I'm wondering why? Is there any way I can access all 4 partitions?

 

It was told that max size of partitions is 1GB. (with all agreed in that )

 

With what SW you partitioned? ICD ? I don't have experience with it, but with Hddriver (some newer version) it must see all 4 (or more) partitions. Problem may be autoboot - Hddriver will install it only on partition under 32MB size (first part), according to my expereiences.

[Christos]

Well, 1GB autoboots fine here.

[Megamania]

It was told that max size of partitions is 1GB. (with all agreed in that )

You're right! But I finished formatting/partitioning at 1a.m. (see my previous msg) after a day at wrok and I was dead tired... sorry about that.

 

With what SW you partitioned? ICD ? I don't have experience with it, but with Hddriver (some newer version) it must see all 4 (or more) partitions. Problem may be autoboot - Hddriver will install it only on partition under 32MB size (first part), according to my expereiences.

I used the Atari hard disk utilities (last version, I believe). When I run them, the disk is seen as partitioned in 4 partitions plus some unused space....

 

In addition, another strange thing is that the same SCSI disk when attached externally to the TT is recognized at boot (or when running ahdi.prg) but not accessible.

 

Please bear with me guys, I really want to sort things out...

 

 

EDIT: ok, I know, I should stop working on the ataris late at night. The hard disk is not accessible on the TT because the partitions are around 1GB each, while TOS 2.x/3.x limits partition sizes to 512MB, right?

 

If that's correct, I still have to find out why I'm only shown 2 out of the 4 existing partitions...

Edited February 5, 2008 by Megamania

[ppera]

....

 

EDIT: ok, I know, I should stop working on the ataris late at night. The hard disk is not accessible on the TT because the partitions are around 1GB each, while TOS 2.x/3.x limits partition sizes to 512MB, right?

 

If that's correct, I still have to find out why I'm only shown 2 out of the 4 existing partitions...

 

Well. All it with hard disks by Ataris is pretty messy. Culprit is Atari itself mostly - they did not enough good regulations and changed many things quickly, just to satisfy momentary needs. No wonder that many people is confused.

I checked it: for TT (TOS 3.xx) 512MB is the limit of part. size.

 

If I get it correct you used Atari's partition SW. I think that it is pretty outdated, and works not good with drives of such capacity (couple GB and more). In time when it was made, couple hundert MB was max capacity.

[Megamania]

If I get it correct you used Atari's partition SW. I think that it is pretty outdated, and works not good with drives of such capacity (couple GB and more). In time when it was made, couple hundert MB was max capacity.

I re-formatted/partitioned the hard disk(s) with ICD 6.5.5-PRO with my FALCON. Everything went fine, and all the partitions are accessible (these utilities have a "enable partition" feature, and the two partitions which weren't shown were not enabled by the Atari HD utilities...).

 

Both disks work fine when connected to the Falcon through a SCSI box.

 

However, they are not even recognized by my TT030! The partitions are all smaller than 512MB, but that's not the point - the drive is completely ignored by the TT (although the hard disk's led blinks when the TT is booting).

I tried attaching them externally and internally - AHDI says "no unit", ICD either hangs or says "unrecognized unit". Strange, because the same drivers detect the hd on the Falcon!

Needless to say, the old TT hd still works perfectly, so it's not a matter of wires, broken connections, etc.

 

I'm wondering if there are any dip-switches to set on the TT...

Or any special settings on the hard disk? it has a 20-Pin J3 connector:

-the first 3 positions select the disk ID,

-4th: FLT LED/Blank

-5th: BSY LED/Spn Sync

-6th: 5V / unused

-7th: Delay Spin/GND

-8th: Stagger Spin /GND

-9th: Write Prot / GND

-10th:Spin Sync /GND

The only position i'm setting is the 8th, otherwise the hd doesn't spin, and the 1st one to select the hd ID.

 

So, thanks to your suggestions I've solved all the hard-disk related problems with my Falcon, but I'm lost with my TT.

 

Any ideas?

[Megamania]

However, they are not even recognized by my TT030! The partitions are all smaller than 512MB, but that's not the point - the drive is completely ignored by the TT (although the hard disk's led blinks when the TT is booting).

Anybody? I'd really appreciate some suggestions.

 

EDIT:

Ok, I realized that for some reason the TT doesn't like the external unit, or even a simple SCSI cable!

The computer will freeze at boot if I connect the unit internally AND there's the external unit connected (even if it's switched off, or if only the SCSI cable is connected - can it be a SCSI "termination" problem?).

If I connect the new hard disk internally and leave the external SCSI interface unused, I get an "unrecognized unit" message.

 

The strange thing is that at my first attempt (before re-formatting it), the hard disk WAS recognized.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Megamania

[jflemaire]

Ok, I realized that for some reason the TT doesn't like the external unit, or even a simple SCSI cable!

The computer will freeze at boot if I connect the unit internally AND there's the external unit connected (even if it's switched off, or if only the SCSI cable is connected - can it be a SCSI "termination" problem?).

If I connect the new hard disk internally and leave the external SCSI interface unused, I get an "unrecognized unit" message.

 

Definitely looks like a termination problem. I used an internal drive with an external Zip drive for years without any problems. I *think* the external unit must be terminated but not the internal one. An I *think* that in the absence of an external unit the internal one must be terminated. And I *think* that the TT itself always gets id 7.

 

I known, that's a lot of thinking but it's been years since I fiddled with that. Anyway, you should be able to find information about this on the web. It's a recurring issue.

 

JFL

[Megamania]

I known, that's a lot of thinking but it's been years since I fiddled with that. Anyway, you should be able to find information about this on the web. It's a recurring issue.

Thanks for your suggestions. I had searched before and have just searched again, but found no solution.

 

I installed a program called atari-fdisk-cross (for linux) and ran a test of the scsi disk on my pc. Here is an excerpt:

v verify the partition table

w write table to disk and exit

x enter expert mode

 

Command (m for help): v

Note: There are primary partitions after the XGM chain (unusual but ok).

But maybe some weird TOS hd drivers can have problems with this.

 

Unallocated areas:

Begin End Sectors MB

8890744 8890759 16 0+

 

Total 16 free sectors.

 

0 errors (violations of partition format)

0 warnings (things that may or may not work)

1 notes (basically ok, but at least unusual)

Can the "at least unusual" note be the cause of my problems? And how can I fix it? I'm not even understanding what the problem is...

 

 

You know, I would give up if the hard disks had never been recognized, but since they were recognized the first time I formatted them...

[Megamania]

Ok, some progress...

 

If the original internal drive is connected and I connect the new one to the external unit, the external disk is recognized! (some proper ID setting was required, because the settings that worked for the Falcon didn't work with the TT). However, when the external disk is recognized, the internal drive spins but is not seen anymore. Mutually exclusive!

This is some progress because it proves that the drive is ok and could work on the TT... I think.

 

However, I can't get the drive to be recognized if I install it internally... It definitely has to do with SCSI termination, in my opinion. I don't see a SCSI termination jumper on the drive though.

 

I feel I may be close to solve this problem, but still need some expert's help...

[Gunstar]

Unfortunately sometimes SCSI termination can be a pain, it's not always a switch, or a jumper like on drive ID, sometimes it's a resister that needs to be removed or installed, or pad that needs to be soldered/desoldered, etc.

I've recently aquired an ICD Advantage Plus host adapter and I can't get it recognized by my Mega STE with it's internal HD, but it is recognized and works fine with my 1040STE since it's the only HD adapter connected with it. So, I downloaded the PDF manual for the ICD adapter and it uses resister packs for termination, they kind of look like combs, and are usually red, yellow, or blue or black. So I have to break out the soldering iron and either remove or replace one of these before I can use it as an external HD adapter with my Mega STE. For now I've decided it's too much trouble and am just using it for my 1040STE.

 

My suggestion is to do a Google search for your HD/host adapter manual and see what it says.

[Megamania]

My suggestion is to do a Google search for your HD/host adapter manual and see what it says.

You don't know how many google searches I had done before your post, but... you were right!

 

First of all I looked for pictures of scsi hard disks, and found that there often are switches on the bottom of the disk. I checked mine, and found two switches. Yeah! I then looked and searched and tried. Conclusion: THE DISK IS BEING FORMATTED NOW! I had to set both switches (I confess I tried all combinations) for the hard disk to be recognized.

 

THANKS again for your precious advice so far, Gunstar, jflemaire and ppera. I'd have given up without the help from this forum.

 

 

One last thing: is it ok to create a set of 512MB partitions, or should the boot partition be smaller (16/32MB)? This is on a TT and I'm using ICD PRO 6.5.5. I'm asking because every time I partition the disk it takes hours to test it for bad sectors...

[jflemaire]

Glad we could help. And yes, termination issues are notoriously complicated with the TT :-)

 

As for partitioning, TOS on the TT will accept 512 MB for whatever partition, even the boot one (I'd go for 511 to be sure, Hddriver on my Falcon considers 1024Mb to be *over* 1 Gb, apparently, but ICD may be different). However, you might not need that much space on a boot drive.

 

Have fun.

[Megamania]

Have fun.

thanks, drive formatted and up and running!