Which media do you think lasts longer, tape or disk?

[deathtrappomegranate]

I'd rather have the originals.

[Ross PK]

Lol, I was beginning to think I was the only one.

 

Mimo is the second person to try and convert me to SIO2SD in these past few days.

[mimo]

Lol, I was beginning to think I was the only one.

 

Mimo is the second person to try and convert me to SIO2SD in these past few days.

Just giving some options, as I am currently collecting for 8bit, 2600/7800,Jag and 5200 as well as all the xbox,PS2,PS1 and wii clutter my house is beginning to fill up rapidly so some stuff has to be hidden away from time to time.

I have actually enjoyed testing and playing about 60 cassette based games this week (thats a lot of loading time I can tell you!) But sometimes it is easier and quicker to have some kind of flash device. For example I use my 7800 CC2 all the time, but I still collect carts, boxes etc for it.

 

btw anyone want to buy a boxed, tested 1050?

[Ross PK]

Lol, I was beginning to think I was the only one.

 

Mimo is the second person to try and convert me to SIO2SD in these past few days.

Just giving some options, as I am currently collecting for 8bit, 2600/7800,Jag and 5200 as well as all the xbox,PS2,PS1 and wii clutter my house is beginning to fill up rapidly so some stuff has to be hidden away from time to time.

I have actually enjoyed testing and playing about 60 cassette based games this week (thats a lot of loading time I can tell you!) But sometimes it is easier and quicker to have some kind of flash device. For example I use my 7800 CC2 all the time, but I still collect carts, boxes etc for it.

 

btw anyone want to buy a boxed, tested 1050?

 

Yeah, I worry that one day I'm just going to have too many games (not just on the A8, but for my other systems as well). I've decided that when my collection reaches a certain size that I will sell my least favorite game if I'm going to buy a new one.

 

How much are you selling the 1050 for?

[Pengwin]

Ross, I prefer original media too. Although I can only use emulation right now, I am still adding to my collection so that when the kids move out I can take over their bedrooms with MY toys

 

Rybags, I would put CD-RW before CD-R. I've never had a RW last long.

[Ross PK]

I've really got back into adding to my collection too recently.

 

I still sometimes use emu for the games I don't have, and also to make videos that I can narrate over as I'm starting to make A8 videos for youtube.

 

None of the videos are up yet though because I want the first one to be about the system, which I haven't done yet.

Edited February 9, 2008 by Ross PK

[Defender II]

I'd rather have the originals.

[Urchlay]

I'm in the "real hardware" camp... but using an SIO2PC to replace my drives. I just can't make myself spend $money on a lot of old disks (which may be dead of old age) that depend on cantankerous old drives (the 810, 1050, and Indus GT are amazing pieces of machinery, but mine are at that age where they require more care and feeding than I can stand). Add to that the fact that I can download thousands of games and not need to buy thousands of blank floppies...

 

To my way of thinking (which may not be yours), it doesn't really matter how the software gets loaded into the hardware, as long as I'm using the actual hardware...

[lextorite]

Is there anyway you can burn a Atari 8-bit data cassette onto CD and then use one of those CD to tape on a Atari tape player? At least that way, your software would last longer.

[Urchlay]

Is there anyway you can burn a Atari 8-bit data cassette onto CD and then use one of those CD to tape on a Atari tape player? At least that way, your software would last longer.

 

Sure, you could do that... the data on an Atari cassette is just stored as audio, so you could burn an audio CD of it (it sounds like ear-piercing screeches).

 

One problem: the Atari normally has the ability to stop and start the tape player. Using a CD/tape adaptor, there'd be no way for the Atari to tell the CD player to pause... some software wouldn't work without you figuring out when the pauses should happen and manually pausing the player. If you're a hardware hacker, you could connect the SIO Motor Control pin to a relay or something that pauses the player...

 

Another thing you could do: use wav2cas to make a .CAS image of your tape software (or download .CAS images from atarimania.com), then use cas2wav to turn it back into audio and record the audio onto a new cassette. This "regenerates" the signal on the tape, and you can burn the .CAS files to CD or whatever for archiving. Using a cassette will avoid the stop/start problem, but tapes with separate data/voice tracks aren't (currently) supported by the .CAS format, so it won't work for e.g. "Intro to BASIC" or "States & Captitals". Most games won't have this problem, though.

[HiassofT]

One problem: the Atari normally has the ability to stop and start the tape player. Using a CD/tape adaptor, there'd be no way for the Atari to tell the CD player to pause... some software wouldn't work without you figuring out when the pauses should happen and manually pausing the player. If you're a hardware hacker, you could connect the SIO Motor Control pin to a relay or something that pauses the player...

Yet another problem: you need to build a FSK decoder to pass binary data to your Atari. Not a big deal, someone already did this some time ago (can't remember the exact name of the CD-to-Atari interface, just google for it).

 

so long,

 

Hias

[atariksi]

Is there anyway you can burn a Atari 8-bit data cassette onto CD and then use one of those CD to tape on a Atari tape player? At least that way, your software would last longer.

 

Sure, you could do that... the data on an Atari cassette is just stored as audio, so you could burn an audio CD of it (it sounds like ear-piercing screeches).

 

One problem: the Atari normally has the ability to stop and start the tape player. Using a CD/tape adaptor, there'd be no way for the Atari to tell the CD player to pause... some software wouldn't work without you figuring out when the pauses should happen and manually pausing the player. If you're a hardware hacker, you could connect the SIO Motor Control pin to a relay or something that pauses the player...

 

Another thing you could do: use wav2cas to make a .CAS image of your tape software (or download .CAS images from atarimania.com), then use cas2wav to turn it back into audio and record the audio onto a new cassette. This "regenerates" the signal on the tape, and you can burn the .CAS files to CD or whatever for archiving. Using a cassette will avoid the stop/start problem, but tapes with separate data/voice tracks aren't (currently) supported by the .CAS format, so it won't work for e.g. "Intro to BASIC" or "States & Captitals". Most games won't have this problem, though.

 

I don't see why anyone would trust the CD for normal everyday useage any more than a floppy disk or cassette (other than more capacity). If they had only used 3.5" disk type covers (or at least 5.25" disk type covers) for the CD/DVD media, the CD/DVD media would be more reliable than cassettes and floppies. Currently, you can easily scratch the CD/DVD media and you are most likely to lose all of the data. I had several CD-Rs go bad because the ink labels ate through the material or the some minor scratches (and fingerprints) lost an important part of the CD-R. My daughter cracked a DVD trying to take it out of the case. If you screw up part of the tape, at least you can recover most of the data with some utility that does frequency-modulation to binary. You can always feed it back to the Atari in binary since it's the cassette recorder that requires the format in FM not the Atari. I guess if you carefully keep your CDs covered and handle them with care, they would be better than 3.5" disks/tapes.

[Urchlay]

Yet another problem: you need to build a FSK decoder to pass binary data to your Atari. Not a big deal, someone already did this some time ago (can't remember the exact name of the CD-to-Atari interface, just google for it).

 

Nah, he's talking about using a real 410/1010 with one of those "fake cassette" CD adaptors, like people use in cars that don't have a built-in CD player. The FSK decoding would be done by the 410/1010, it wouldn't need anything extra.

 

Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MiniDisc-Discma...r/dp/B00005T39Y

 

At least, that's what I *think* he's talking about, maybe I'm confused

[Urchlay]

I don't see why anyone would trust the CD for normal everyday useage any more than a floppy disk or cassette (other than more capacity). If they had only used 3.5" disk type covers (or at least 5.25" disk type covers) for the CD/DVD media, the CD/DVD media would be more reliable than cassettes and floppies.

 

Well, it's cheap & easy to burn as many copies of the CD as you like... one for daily use, one that stays in a jewel case on the shelf, and one to go in your hermetically sealed vault deep within the bowels of the Earth

 

Of course you can copy tapes, but you add a little more noise for every generation of copy.

 

Also, tapes and floppy disks wear out from use, because the media physically comes in contact with the head in the drive. Every time you play a tape or disk, you're scraping off a small amount of the media. CDs are read by a laser, no physical contact (except at the hub), so they're less likely to wear out from normal use... also tapes have internal moving parts (reels) that can wear out from use (a CD doesn't have moving parts, though it *is* a moving part).

 

Although burned CDs rely on chemical compounds that can and do break down over time. Pressed CDs (commercially mastered) don't have this problem... theoretically they'll last forever if you handle them carefully (in practice, they get delaminated due to the plastic coating or adhesive wearing out, but it takes a long time, and theoretically they could be repaired if this does happen).

 

Also... old floppy and tape drives can be finicky beasts, requiring lots of maintenance, and parts are getting hard to come by. New CD-ROM drives are so cheap they're practically free.

[atariksi]

I don't see why anyone would trust the CD for normal everyday useage any more than a floppy disk or cassette (other than more capacity). If they had only used 3.5" disk type covers (or at least 5.25" disk type covers) for the CD/DVD media, the CD/DVD media would be more reliable than cassettes and floppies.

 

Well, it's cheap & easy to burn as many copies of the CD as you like... one for daily use, one that stays in a jewel case on the shelf, and one to go in your hermetically sealed vault deep within the bowels of the Earth

 

Of course you can copy tapes, but you add a little more noise for every generation of copy.

 

Also, tapes and floppy disks wear out from use, because the media physically comes in contact with the head in the drive. Every time you play a tape or disk, you're scraping off a small amount of the media. CDs are read by a laser, no physical contact (except at the hub), so they're less likely to wear out from normal use... also tapes have internal moving parts (reels) that can wear out from use (a CD doesn't have moving parts, though it *is* a moving part).

 

Although burned CDs rely on chemical compounds that can and do break down over time. Pressed CDs (commercially mastered) don't have this problem... theoretically they'll last forever if you handle them carefully (in practice, they get delaminated due to the plastic coating or adhesive wearing out, but it takes a long time, and theoretically they could be repaired if this does happen).

 

Also... old floppy and tape drives can be finicky beasts, requiring lots of maintenance, and parts are getting hard to come by. New CD-ROM drives are so cheap they're practically free.

 

For everyday usage, you are at least as likely to screw up a CD-R with fingerprints/scratches as a floppy/tape going bad. I see it practically that people who rent these DVDs from this store next to my house return some of them due to not functioning because someone either scratched them or got them dirty with fingerprints. Think about it, would you rather have a 3.5" disk without the cover or with a cover? It's true CDs/DVDs would last longer if they were treated like polaroid pictures that haven't been dried yet. And it's easier and faster to use floppies given small size of Atari files.

 

As far as copying, I was thinking about digital data on the tapes not analog; I'm sure Atari had a better system of making the thousands of copies of the Space Invaders cassettes that they sold. You can easily copy as many tapes/floppy disks as you want exactly given a master digital original.

 

As far as being cheaper and availability-- that's because it's a media standard nowadays.

[HiassofT]

Nah, he's talking about using a real 410/1010 with one of those "fake cassette" CD adaptors, like people use in cars that don't have a built-in CD player. The FSK decoding would be done by the 410/1010, it wouldn't need anything extra.

Ah, OK, you are right. I must have missed the "Atari tape player" part.

 

Basically I think using such an adaptor should work, although IMHO these things are really a pain in the ass if you try to use them in a non-car cassette player. I once tried it with a normal radio/cassette player but fitting the cable somewhere under the lid of the tape deck was a desaster. You would need to cut a small hole for the cable, otherwise the lid doesn't close properly and the adaptor is placed slightly off resulting in quite bad audio quality (too low volume, a missing channel etc.).

 

so long,

 

Hias

[Atari5200]

i am admitting now I did not read this post in all, but wanted to just chime in.

 

Some video tapes, not sure about atari tapes or gaming tapes in general, were made that had organic materials in them, Beta tapes are good for this, so the tape inside can actually mold if not stored properly. Maybe different manufacturers of the different games may have used different materials to make the tape..i don't know, I just wanted to give you a heads up to make sure if you are going to store tapes of any kind that they are sealed well and free of moisture.

 

I know this first hand as I used to work in a mom n pop video rental store years ago and the owner stored his old stuff in the basement, we went down there one day and his beta tapes were ruined with mold on the tape, he said the tape actually had cotton fibers in it which caused it to mold.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Atari5200

[Hornpipe2]

One problem: the Atari normally has the ability to stop and start the tape player. Using a CD/tape adaptor, there'd be no way for the Atari to tell the CD player to pause... some software wouldn't work without you figuring out when the pauses should happen and manually pausing the player. If you're a hardware hacker, you could connect the SIO Motor Control pin to a relay or something that pauses the player...

Yet another problem: you need to build a FSK decoder to pass binary data to your Atari. Not a big deal, someone already did this some time ago (can't remember the exact name of the CD-to-Atari interface, just google for it).

 

so long,

 

Hias

 

This is an awesome idea and one I'd like to try. Can you help me track down the CD to Atari interface? I can't seem to find it (except one that works by IDE - not exactly what I was looking for). EDIT: Is this it? http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114001

 

Also helpful would be any information on what exactly the tape drive supports (pinout, special commands, etc). I've never used a 410 before. Does the 410 do the decode or is it the Atari?

Edited March 11, 2008 by Hornpipe2

[HiassofT]

This is an awesome idea and one I'd like to try. Can you help me track down the CD to Atari interface? I can't seem to find it (except one that works by IDE - not exactly what I was looking for). EDIT: Is this it? http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114001

IIRC this is the one I thought about. Also (IIRC) there was another interface that was more or less just the FSK decoder (like the one built into the 1010) and a stereo cinch input jack. But, unfortunately, I can't remember the name. It could also be that it was just some post I read somewhere where someone adapted one of the old circuits to connect a standard tape deck to your Atari for his CD player. I'm sorry for this really fuzzy information, I couldn't find the docs that I was thinking about in my bookmarks, mail archives and usenet archives. And my built-in memory seems to be fading, too :-)

 

The MegaCD should have the advantage that it's a lot faster than a standard tape (and you also can put a lot more data on a CD). But since the data is encoded in a very special way, you can't simply transfer the (not-really-) audio-data to a standard tape and use it with your 1010.

 

Basically the MegaCD is one of the more sophisticated later tape-turbos on an Audio CD.

 

Also helpful would be any information on what exactly the tape drive supports (pinout, special commands, etc). I've never used a 410 before. Does the 410 do the decode or is it the Atari?

All tape drives have to decode. The POKEY can transmit binary data using FSK (two-tone) encoding, which can then be recorded directly to tape without further processing, but it cannot decode it by itself.

 

I'm not too familiar with the more advanced turbo tape techniques for the Atari, but I'm sure there are some people (especially from eastern europe) here in this forum who can provide you with more information.

 

so long,

 

Hias

[JamesD]

I'd say quality of the media and how it was stored has more to do with survival than type.

 

Given the low density of tape I'd say it's less likely to be prone to dropping bits.

On the other hand I think lesser quality tapes tend to disintegrate over time more than disks and the loading circuits of many machines were marginal at best to begin with. If you owned a machine that had loading issues when tapes were new I find it difficult to believe that will improve with time.

 

The Tandy CoCo was actually pretty reliable tape wise and though the tapes I purchased from ebay were poorly treated I've had good luck loading them. My own disks that were good quality and carefully stored but lost data just sitting in a closet.

Edited March 12, 2008 by JamesD

[Hornpipe2]

Also helpful would be any information on what exactly the tape drive supports (pinout, special commands, etc). I've never used a 410 before. Does the 410 do the decode or is it the Atari?

All tape drives have to decode. The POKEY can transmit binary data using FSK (two-tone) encoding, which can then be recorded directly to tape without further processing, but it cannot decode it by itself.

 

The MegaCD looks very much like what I want to build. I'd be interested in rigging the Motor Control line to trigger a pause/unpause on the CD player. (MegaCD seems to be doing something else entirely with that line...) Hopefully I could devise something small enough to fit inside a small (or portable) CD player, leaving only an SIO cable hanging out. You'd then just advance to the right track on the CD and do a CLOAD, and you'd have an Atari CD-ROM drive. Switch to pick L/R stereo and pack twice as much on one CD. At 820 baud, stereo, you could fit ~930KiB on an 80-minute CDR. (820 baud is nearing the upper limit of the OS-routines, according to CAS2WAV documentation. I can always play with it later to see how high I can go...)

 

This issue of Antic seems to have the schematic for the FSK decoder: does this look right? http://www.atarimagazines.com/v2n1/tapetopics.html

 

EDIT: There's no reason I would need to stick to FSK data on CD, though, since the expectation is that data on CD would be much higher signal-to-noise ratio and isn't subject to any kind of degradation. Perhaps there is a much simpler circuit I could use to make 0s and 1s from 'audio' source? Something like Amplitude Shift Keying?

Edited March 12, 2008 by Hornpipe2

[supercat]

EDIT: There's no reason I would need to stick to FSK data on CD, though, since the expectation is that data on CD would be much higher signal-to-noise ratio and isn't subject to any kind of degradation. Perhaps there is a much simpler circuit I could use to make 0s and 1s from 'audio' source? Something like Amplitude Shift Keying?

 

I would suggest Manchester coding at a data rate of 11Kbits/second. There are a number of variations on manchester coding; the essence of all of them is that your data rate is 1/2 of the bit clock rate, the output is high exactly half the time, and there will never be more than one full bit time without the output changing state.

Edited March 12, 2008 by supercat

[Hornpipe2]

EDIT: There's no reason I would need to stick to FSK data on CD, though, since the expectation is that data on CD would be much higher signal-to-noise ratio and isn't subject to any kind of degradation. Perhaps there is a much simpler circuit I could use to make 0s and 1s from 'audio' source? Something like Amplitude Shift Keying?

 

I would suggest Manchester coding at a data rate of 11Kbits/second. There are a number of variations on manchester coding; the essence of all of them is that your data rate is 1/2 of the bit clock rate, the output is high exactly half the time, and there will never be more than one full bit time without the output changing state.

 

Wouldn't that speed require specialized loading code? I'm looking for a solution that makes the Atari see my CD player as a tape deck. (I may be wrong here - sorry if I don't know what I'm talking about, I've never been a cassette user, but the idea of an Atari CD-Rom is just too neat to pass up) I have no idea on the max speed POKEY will read on a CLOAD - can anyone fill me in here?

 

Here is my thinking on how to make a dead-simple decoder. Take my 600-bit stream, stretch it out to 44.1khz so that a 0 makes a 0-volume sample and 1 makes a max-volume sample. Then, burn that. On playback you should have a signal that goes high for 1 and low for 0. Now just put that into a circuit that turns this into levels the Atari expects, and you're good to go.

 

Wait, I think I just described the MegaCD : )

[kenfused]

It wouldn't be pretty but I wonder how one of those cd cassette adapter things would work.

[supercat]

Here is my thinking on how to make a dead-simple decoder. Take my 600-bit stream, stretch it out to 44.1khz so that a 0 makes a 0-volume sample and 1 makes a max-volume sample. Then, burn that. On playback you should have a signal that goes high for 1 and low for 0. Now just put that into a circuit that turns this into levels the Atari expects, and you're good to go.

 

Things aren't that simple. A typical DVD player will have some circuitry in the output stage that can cause trouble if there are long runs of '1's or '0's, and may also cause some problems if there are a lot more '1's than '0's or vice versa. Manchester coding helps avoid such issues.

 

BTW, I wonder why I've never heard of any barcode format using Manchester coding. It would seem ideal for applications where one needs a few non-numeric characters but not many (and could thus use a 16-character set). Unlike code39 which uses 13 'pixels' to store each character, Manchester coding would use 8 pixels to store a hex digit or 12 to store a base64 character. As an alternative, since Manchester coding is a binary code that uses two pixels per bit, it would be possible to use four bits for a digit, dash, or space, and seven for a letter or any of six other punctuation marks.