Re Doom Source Code

[harveymush]

Hi Guys

 

So I have been reading with interest all the threads ref the great work Curts been doing releasing all the Jag source code he can find, and it got me thinking about the Doom source again, about reusing it to make Doom 2 or even a new game based on the code. One of the other threads highlighted legal problems with doing this so late last night I emailed Mr Carmack himself to get his view points (back in the day I used to be a bit of a Doom fanatic making levels and custom wads etc for PC Doom so I still had his email address on file). I explained in the email I sent him that the Jag Community would like to make use of the Doom source code to make future games or a revamped version of Doom for the Jag, I did say to him that any project would be free to the Community or at the most a charge to cover cost for media etc, well I got the reply about 30 mins ago, this it a direct cut and paste.....

 

"I am sympathetic, but there is no way we can justify any official

legal release at this point, we are just too busy with other

things. It would definitely be a no-no to use any of the Doom media

in another project, but you should be pretty safe reusing the code in

any way.

 

John Carmack"

 

So it looks like we are free to use the source code for future projects but we can't use any of the Doom graphics etc so sadly no Doom 2, but at least this gives one of our programming teams out there a nice little engine for a future FPS or what ever.

 

I also asked him if he had or found any Jaguar related items could he pass them on the community as you can see he didn't respond to that bit.

 

Rob

[downix]

Do I smell Doom Alien TC for the Jaguar....

[EmOneGarand]

Do I smell Doom Alien TC for the Jaguar....

well if you could create a reverse endian wad out of the original TC wad it'd work. Either that or rewrite the code to accept standard wads.

[JagChris]

Hi Guys

 

So I have been reading with interest all the threads ref the great work Curts been doing releasing all the Jag source code he can find, and it got me thinking about the Doom source again, about reusing it to make Doom 2 or even a new game based on the code. One of the other threads highlighted legal problems with doing this so late last night I emailed Mr Carmack himself to get his view points (back in the day I used to be a bit of a Doom fanatic making levels and custom wads etc for PC Doom so I still had his email address on file). I explained in the email I sent him that the Jag Community would like to make use of the Doom source code to make future games or a revamped version of Doom for the Jag, I did say to him that any project would be free to the Community or at the most a charge to cover cost for media etc, well I got the reply about 30 mins ago, this it a direct cut and paste.....

 

"I am sympathetic, but there is no way we can justify any official

legal release at this point, we are just too busy with other

things. It would definitely be a no-no to use any of the Doom media

in another project, but you should be pretty safe reusing the code in

any way.

 

John Carmack"

 

So it looks like we are free to use the source code for future projects but we can't use any of the Doom graphics etc so sadly no Doom 2, but at least this gives one of our programming teams out there a nice little engine for a future FPS or what ever.

 

I also asked him if he had or found any Jaguar related items could he pass them on the community as you can see he didn't respond to that bit.

 

Rob

 

What they meant was they are not interested in giving out their wads for free. You should of asked what the licensing cost would of been per cart to do a revamped DOOM for the Jaguar instead of telling them you just wish to give it out for free. I hear Carmack is a very shrewd businessman.

 

Also, who is going to do all that work redoing DOOM for free?

[harveymush]

Well the idea was to get id's view on the whole is it legal or not legal stand, to state that the future project would be free was more to show them that as a community we weren't trying to make money of their work, thats what I was trying to get across.

 

And who's going to do the work well thats up to anyone who wants to I suppose, I for one would love to make levels for any new game, I used to make levels for PC Doom and Quake, I could never get my head round programming, hardware was always my thing, but when I got a PC and my first copy of Doom I really got into level design, graphics etc, and I am trying to track down a guy of DoomWorld who once told me he had hacked Jag Doom an wrote/hacked a level editor for it.

 

Believe it or not in most communities there are people out there who like to work on a project for fun and for the joy of doing it not for money or profit margins, look at the other Doom related projects on any of the other scenes do you think any of those guys get paid.

 

As I said it was to find out what id's view point was on the use of their source code, and John Carmack has confirmed that he is happy to let use the code for our communities projects.

 

Rob

[JagChris]

Well the idea was to get id's view on the whole is it legal or not legal stand, to state that the future project would be free was more to show them that as a community we weren't trying to make money of their work, thats what I was trying to get across.

 

 

He's a shrewd businessman who knows he has no guarantee of that. Whose to say he doesn't ok the free use of the WADS and someone doesn't whip up a remix DOOM for $80 or so and start selling it?

 

Also, it would probably take a request from a company like SongBird or Scato for him to take seriously any inquires to licensing a new version of DOOM.

 

You might consider two things.

 

Ask Carmack what might be entailed in relicensing a reworked DOOM.

 

Or use your level design skills to help Matthias design whole new levels for what he's working on with the DOOM engine that don't violate id's WAD trademarks.

Edited February 14, 2008 by JagChris

[ovalbugmann]

From the rules of the open Doom Source code usage that Matthias was talking about in the other thread, seems like he has no intention of releasing any of his Doom hacks & work to the community, something about for only personal use and or learning was stated. So if harvymush & Matt work on something Doom related they would be the only ones enjoying it. Not sure, maybe I'm mixed up here?

[downix]

Do I smell Doom Alien TC for the Jaguar....

well if you could create a reverse endian wad out of the original TC wad it'd work. Either that or rewrite the code to accept standard wads.

I'd be up for endian-reversal. Does JagDOOM use the standard bitmaps or cry?

[EmOneGarand]

Do I smell Doom Alien TC for the Jaguar....

well if you could create a reverse endian wad out of the original TC wad it'd work. Either that or rewrite the code to accept standard wads.

I'd be up for endian-reversal. Does JagDOOM use the standard bitmaps or cry?

I wouldn't know I havn't the means to dump the JAGDoom wad from my cart myself to try and take a look. The original PC wads had the pics and sounds in RAW as the app I used to edit wads converted BMPs, most everything else was in a generic file type called LMP's, the music however was in mus format (though I'm unaware of what the music files for Jag Doom are). Maybe the guy that contacted Carmack could find out? Thats another thing.. has anybody bothered to ask where in the source the routines for reading the WAD are?

 

EDIT: Actually.. I think the sounds may have been in a format called SND.. most of the programs especially WinTex did most of the conversions for you

Edited February 14, 2008 by EmOneGarand

[EmOneGarand]

From the rules of the open Doom Source code usage that Matthias was talking about in the other thread, seems like he has no intention of releasing any of his Doom hacks & work to the community, something about for only personal use and or learning was stated. So if harvymush & Matt work on something Doom related they would be the only ones enjoying it. Not sure, maybe I'm mixed up here?

id's stand on DOOM sources.. and I'm pretty sure this would apply to the Jag source is it can be used, modified and distributed as long as it does not include the commerical versions of the wads nor is it used for profit.

[Gorf]

From the rules of the open Doom Source code usage that Matthias was talking about in the other thread, seems like he has no intention of releasing any of his Doom hacks & work to the community, something about for only personal use and or learning was stated. So if harvymush & Matt work on something Doom related they would be the only ones enjoying it. Not sure, maybe I'm mixed up here?

id's stand on DOOM sources.. and I'm pretty sure this would apply to the Jag source is it can be used, modified and distributed as long as it does not include the commerical versions of the wads nor is it used for profit.

 

 

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

[Gunstar]

From the rules of the open Doom Source code usage that Matthias was talking about in the other thread, seems like he has no intention of releasing any of his Doom hacks & work to the community, something about for only personal use and or learning was stated. So if harvymush & Matt work on something Doom related they would be the only ones enjoying it. Not sure, maybe I'm mixed up here?

id's stand on DOOM sources.. and I'm pretty sure this would apply to the Jag source is it can be used, modified and distributed as long as it does not include the commerical versions of the wads nor is it used for profit.

 

 

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

 

I still love playing ray traced FPS's! I'd LOVE more on the Jag personally. The Jag didn't have enough!

Has anyone ever looked into the possibility of using the Towers II engine/source? I know the developer's would need to be contacted and all that jazz...

[EmOneGarand]

From the rules of the open Doom Source code usage that Matthias was talking about in the other thread, seems like he has no intention of releasing any of his Doom hacks & work to the community, something about for only personal use and or learning was stated. So if harvymush & Matt work on something Doom related they would be the only ones enjoying it. Not sure, maybe I'm mixed up here?

id's stand on DOOM sources.. and I'm pretty sure this would apply to the Jag source is it can be used, modified and distributed as long as it does not include the commerical versions of the wads nor is it used for profit.

 

 

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

 

I still love playing ray traced FPS's! I'd LOVE more on the Jag personally. The Jag didn't have enough!

Has anyone ever looked into the possibility of using the Towers II engine/source? I know the developer's would need to be contacted and all that jazz...

I have to say I agree whole heartedly with Gunstar Steve.. the Jag could use an awesome game like Disrupter.. it used Ray tracing but the sound was superb.. I myself am too much of a fan of old 2D raytraced games to see them die I can only hope I can make sense of the reverse endian crap and churn out something awesome with the doom source!

[EmOneGarand]

From the rules of the open Doom Source code usage that Matthias was talking about in the other thread, seems like he has no intention of releasing any of his Doom hacks & work to the community, something about for only personal use and or learning was stated. So if harvymush & Matt work on something Doom related they would be the only ones enjoying it. Not sure, maybe I'm mixed up here?

id's stand on DOOM sources.. and I'm pretty sure this would apply to the Jag source is it can be used, modified and distributed as long as it does not include the commerical versions of the wads nor is it used for profit.

 

 

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

 

I still love playing ray traced FPS's! I'd LOVE more on the Jag personally. The Jag didn't have enough!

Has anyone ever looked into the possibility of using the Towers II engine/source? I know the developer's would need to be contacted and all that jazz...

if the Towers 2 engine could be optimized to use the GPU more then I would say hell yeah! The frame rate was just too piss poor.. especially compared to the lightning fast Jag Wolf engine.. I love Towers but if it were as fast as Jag Wolf it may have been received better.

 

edit: i wonder if they guy taht had bought the apline from carl that had been used for Towers 2 had the source on it.. that'd be sweet.. as that coupled with the Jag DOOM source could be beneficial for future JAG FPS games.

Edited February 15, 2008 by EmOneGarand

[BuddyBuddies]

From the rules of the open Doom Source code usage that Matthias was talking about in the other thread, seems like he has no intention of releasing any of his Doom hacks & work to the community, something about for only personal use and or learning was stated. So if harvymush & Matt work on something Doom related they would be the only ones enjoying it. Not sure, maybe I'm mixed up here?

id's stand on DOOM sources.. and I'm pretty sure this would apply to the Jag source is it can be used, modified and distributed as long as it does not include the commerical versions of the wads nor is it used for profit.

 

 

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

 

I still love playing ray traced FPS's! I'd LOVE more on the Jag personally. The Jag didn't have enough!

Has anyone ever looked into the possibility of using the Towers II engine/source? I know the developer's would need to be contacted and all that jazz...

if the Towers 2 engine could be optimized to use the GPU more then I would say hell yeah! The frame rate was just too piss poor.. especially compared to the lightning fast Jag Wolf engine.. I love Towers but if it were as fast as Jag Wolf it may have been received better.

 

edit: i wonder if they guy taht had bought the apline from carl that had been used for Towers 2 had the source on it.. that'd be sweet.. as that coupled with the Jag DOOM source could be beneficial for future JAG FPS games.

maybe Carl has the source??? who knows??

[Nognir]

We should take the source of Doom and do Heretic for the Jaguar! It was also a really nice game

[Gunstar]

From the rules of the open Doom Source code usage that Matthias was talking about in the other thread, seems like he has no intention of releasing any of his Doom hacks & work to the community, something about for only personal use and or learning was stated. So if harvymush & Matt work on something Doom related they would be the only ones enjoying it. Not sure, maybe I'm mixed up here?

id's stand on DOOM sources.. and I'm pretty sure this would apply to the Jag source is it can be used, modified and distributed as long as it does not include the commerical versions of the wads nor is it used for profit.

 

 

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

 

I still love playing ray traced FPS's! I'd LOVE more on the Jag personally. The Jag didn't have enough!

Has anyone ever looked into the possibility of using the Towers II engine/source? I know the developer's would need to be contacted and all that jazz...

if the Towers 2 engine could be optimized to use the GPU more then I would say hell yeah! The frame rate was just too piss poor.. especially compared to the lightning fast Jag Wolf engine.. I love Towers but if it were as fast as Jag Wolf it may have been received better.

 

edit: i wonder if they guy taht had bought the apline from carl that had been used for Towers 2 had the source on it.. that'd be sweet.. as that coupled with the Jag DOOM source could be beneficial for future JAG FPS games.

 

I agree that Towers engine would be great optimized with the GPU, but I felt it was quite a smooth engine considering, it's faster and smoother than AvP! I never had a problem with it.

[JagChris]

From the rules of the open Doom Source code usage that Matthias was talking about in the other thread, seems like he has no intention of releasing any of his Doom hacks & work to the community, something about for only personal use and or learning was stated. So if harvymush & Matt work on something Doom related they would be the only ones enjoying it. Not sure, maybe I'm mixed up here?

id's stand on DOOM sources.. and I'm pretty sure this would apply to the Jag source is it can be used, modified and distributed as long as it does not include the commerical versions of the wads nor is it used for profit.

 

 

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

 

I still love playing ray traced FPS's! I'd LOVE more on the Jag personally. The Jag didn't have enough!

Has anyone ever looked into the possibility of using the Towers II engine/source? I know the developer's would need to be contacted and all that jazz...

I have to say I agree whole heartedly with Gunstar Steve.. the Jag could use an awesome game like Disrupter.. it used Ray tracing but the sound was superb.. I myself am too much of a fan of old 2D raytraced games to see them die I can only hope I can make sense of the reverse endian crap and churn out something awesome with the doom source!

 

I also agree. I still love Doom, and other ray traced games. Plus the Jag is so good at them! It's the one thing it can outshine the PSX on.

[Pocket]

Who can be bored playing Doom ??!

[Gorf]

Who can be bored playing Doom ??!

 

Not me but the clones of doom?

[sd32]

We should take the source of Doom and do Heretic for the Jaguar! It was also a really nice game

Heretic ran on the Doom engine?. I always wanted to play it, but never got the chance.

Well, back at clicking on the folder icons of Gorfs desktop image. Click, click click click..... at one point its got to work.

[Gorf]

We should take the source of Doom and do Heretic for the Jaguar! It was also a really nice game

Heretic ran on the Doom engine?. I always wanted to play it, but never got the chance.

Well, back at clicking on the folder icons of Gorfs desktop image. Click, click click click..... at one point its got to work.

.....yeah....when I do it here.

[Gunstar]

Who can be bored playing Doom ??!

 

Not me but the clones of doom?

 

Well, the reason I like them is that they do have all-new levels, with different graphics and characters. I think of them more as Doom sequels. I LOVE DOOM to death, but playing the same levels over and over gets a lot more than clones, IMHO. And, since it's out of the question to get another DOOM out on the Jaguar with new levels, since Carmack said the source can be used, but not the graphics, characters, etc., etc., it looks to me like the only way we can get more of a good thing like Doom IS clones! Am I wrong?

Edited February 16, 2008 by Gunstar

[Gorf]

Only from my point of view. It's preference.

I'd rather see TRUE 3D apps being worked on.

 

The psuedo 3D's were great at the time but

there is no need for those anymore.

 

Different levels yeah...but more of the same.

[Gunstar]

Only from my point of view. It's preference.

I'd rather see TRUE 3D apps being worked on.

 

The psuedo 3D's were great at the time but

there is no need for those anymore.

 

Different levels yeah...but more of the same.

 

I agree since we are talking about you, who knows how to get the most from the Jaguar now, with true 3D, but not everyone in the community is as skilled or dedicated as you at creating great, true 3D games from the ground up, and I'm sure that there are those who would be more successful at using an existing ray-trace engine to make a new game. I too, prefer true 3D, but I still like ray-trace games too. I still like old 2D games of all types, and if people still want 2D games too, and developers want to develop them, then there seem to also be (judging by the fact that everyone here is even discussing it) Jag developers that also want to do more ray-traced games, and users like me, and others who have replied, that still enjoy them as well. I say go for it with your true 3D games, but I don't see why you want to discourage others from doing ray-traced games. It's not just a matter of "need" but also want. Might as well say why bother with some 2D shooters like raiden when you can make 3D shooters; becuase people still want 2D shooters. I want ALL types of 2D and 3D games for the Jaguar. I'd love to see more of all types, but if it doesn't happen, I'm also still happy with there already is for the Jaguar. In the meantime, I'll continue to play my Jaguar games and play new games on new/newer systems. I'm still not going to hold my breath for ANY new Jaguar games. If they come, great, if not, fine.

Edited February 16, 2008 by Gunstar