NES vs 7800

[Chuplayer]

Trying to play my own NES today, I was reminded of one key advantage of my 7800 ... the games always play when the 7800 is powered up...It's always a damn crap shoot as to whether or not a game will properly load the first time or first 10 times I try.

Or you can just replace the connector and stop complaining Bonus points if you disable the lockout chip.

 

 

Or spend the same $15 on an NES clone Either way...

or spend nothing and just use an emulator, because they're about as relable and accurate as all those Chintendo on a stick hunks of crap.

Dude, free emulators are better than NOAC. They're already better than paid-for emulators most of the time. That's actually a shame.

[toptenmaterial]

Oh yeah... I never noticed any issues with any of my carts, so I forgot they tend to screw up colors & stuff. Good thing I don't care for Castlevania I guess.

See, now that's just crazy talk.

 

Castlvania is one of the only few NES titles I ever really enjoyed. That and Excitebike.

 

oh well, I guess we're all just a little picky.

Castlevania? That game is crazy hard! I must admit I never got past Frankenstein....

[kool kitty89]

but that's the whole point.

 

Nintendo's first party stuff is and always has been cutesy kidsy crap.

Comparing 1st party stuff is only a small fraction of what made the system (or almost any system for that matter) what it was...

 

However, calling a ton of great games crap is rather odd... maybe you don't like the genres that Nintendo catered to (or at least with that era), but that's no reason to overlook the masses of others (and that's looking past the whole revisionist history thing). Marketing and management played their roles, but Nintendo wouldn't have gotten anywhere without good software (as any platform needs).

 

For the record, Nintendo's 1st/2nd party stuff was hardly all kid-oriented stuff either (though some things could be considered kiddy if you twisted it anyway -tons of old arcade games -Pac Man, Space Invaders, etc- or a variety of other things... or you could twist Super Mario Brothers to sound like an violent, off the wall kind of game -ie something about how it's based around crushing your enemies to death, doing mushrooms, etc, etc )

 

And that's just comparing the NES, not the variety of other Nintendo consoles with different contexts. (again, you've got to cut through the bias either way to try and extrapolate any useful comparison -ie by current mass standards, the SNES was better than the Genesis in almost every respect, etc -you've got the opposite problem on some retro communities, but for the most part those are more fair than the average -Atariage and Sega-16 both fit that model -biased agood bit but far more open minded on average than the masses)

 

beyond that, in most cases their versions of multi-platform games from 3rd party companies were almost always the worst ports, graphically and gameplay-wise. SMS, TG-16 and even the 7800 often bested them in one or more ways,

You obviously have no realistic experience with the platforms at the time... or you're just blind. (some were better, some were worse, some were not even the same games on different platforms, but unique games) Are you including the 8-bit computers, 16 bit computers, all regions, etc? (NES versions were often better than C64, MSX, CPC, Spectrum, and sometimes better than ST, SMS, or even Amiga -for cases of crap ports at least, it varies hugely but for the most part the NES got some awesome games -it wasn't the king of arcade ports as it aged, but that's like comparing any other aging console like the 2600 in the early/mid 80s, etc, etc -and there were still exceptions)

Then again, arcade games weren't the primary selling points, they were just one facet of the system (console specific games and especially NES exclusives were the main selling points)... though in in the US that made more sense than Europe. (with the much stronger mid/late 80s arcade market in Europe -there's a damn good reason Sega needed to shift away from the "arcade at home" angle to succeed in the US -one of the first things Mike Katz did after joining Sega was dramatically changing the marketing)

 

The SMS was 2 full years newer tech wise and even then it had some notable disadvantages... the PCE shouldn't be compared at all in that respect as that's a full generation ahead. (with the MD and SNES)

For that matter, I wasn't really arguing that the competition didn't have good games, but regardless of that, that the NES (like all popular systems) has a good chunk of good games. (unless you've got oddly restricted tastes)

 

It's not really any different than comparing games on the C64 from the time (except the C64 was a fair bit more primitive in some respects -namely limited color and resolution -in common use- and audio was a trade-off -unlike the SMS where sound was pretty much universally inferior to the NES or C64 -or ST/CPC/MSX/Speccy 128k/Intellivision/Vectrex)...

 

 

And then there was the shovelware. TONS and TONS of it. just as bad as latter day 2600 releases.

I wouldn't say it was quite as bad as the 2600 towards the end, but yes, there's a lot of crap mixed in (and some people like some of the so-called crap -in some cases more than some of the staple "good" games -it's a matter of taste; for example I rather like Acclaim's Star Voyager -sort of a Star Raiders inspired game- but many find it rather poor or unplayable)

 

It's absolutely no different on any other popular platform though (usually the more popular, the more crap -often proportionally more crap too). That certainly happened to varyign extents with the Genesis/MD, SNES, PSX, N64 (though popularity was largely limited to the US), PS2, Game Boy, GBC, GBA, DS, Wii, and to a fair extent Xbox 360 and PS3 as well. (and of course PC and various home computers)

 

All that godawful flicker.

No worse than the SMS... actually usually less severe. (especially due to the number of 16-bit arcade ports that the SMS pushed with attempted minimal cut backs -Double Dragon comes to mind, but it was a bit rushed anyway -and in some respects it was technically the closest to the Arcade at the time, but a huge number of people find it unenjoyable or unplayable due to control/hit detection/flicker/etc -this came up in some recent discussions on AA and also Sega-16)

 

 

 

I could go through and make a list of the overall NES games to compare... or other pertinent examples, but that would be a huge amount to go though and I'm sure this has been done before.

I will list one early example of a non-kiddie 1st party NES title as such off the top of my head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HiUUJqJvqg

(incidentally, that was one of the games that got significant complaints and led to NoA instituting the rather heavy censorship policy... and not really due to the violence but rather the perceived sexual -or homosexual- acts of some of the moves )

Actually this video specifically addresses that:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do like racing games but not the over complicated, over realistic nature of many of the modern ones. I also loathe analogue sticks with a passion, just give me an old fashioned joypad or joystick please.

Hmm, so did you like playing the Arcade originals of some classic racers with analog wheels more than the home versions using sticks? (Poll Position as a case in point, but there's tons of others, especially moving forward... even into 3D)

I personally can deal with a joypad and d-pad for a fair chunk of games, but there's a ton of racers that wouldn't be nearly as fun with low precision control. (doesn't matter if it's true analog or pure high precision digital -like the N64 used- it's damn necessary for some genres... at least for me and a lot of others -I don't care for using an analog joystick as such but even then there's a good chunk of cases where I'd take that over 8-way control)

Meh, that probably ties more into the sort of genres you prefer anyway... I know I'm a bit out of the ordinary for the retro community as I like a bit of everything from the 70s up to modern games and tons of genres. (I tend to not like 2D sidescrollers so much... mainly as I often suck at them, but I still have fun regardless and there's exceptions like some of the Sonic games -especially 3/3&K- or Yoshi's Island that just fit my skills right and are forgiving enough to be totally playable without undue frustration -my true genres of choice are racers -especially 3D and more fantacy stiled ones- flight/space combat sims, arcade style railshooters, action adventure games -2D and 3D, graphic adventures, and to some extent RPGs -but that's mixed and I actually haven't played through many, but I generally enjoy them)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I don't consider it "odd taste", but I have definitely had little experience with Nintendo because whatever you call it- I can look at almost any Nintendo game and tell it is being played on Nintendo- and it holds no interest to me.

Well yeah... I assume you mean "NES" when you say "Nintendo" ... That's true for many systems, especially older ones. It's often very quickly apparent what system is being played simply from the graphics and if not graphics alone, sound usually clinches it. (Atari VCS, A8/5200, 7800, Colecovision/SG-1000/MSX/TI99, Atari ST, Amiga, C64, NES, SMS, Genesis, many DOS/PC games, PC Engine/TG-16, SNES, and even going into some later ones though it gets increasingly blurred and harder to diferentiate by look/sound alone)

 

Now if you mean by developer, that's a separate bit similar issue. (most developers have trademark styles and tendencies as such... though lumping all Nindo 1st party stuff as such -or all Sega, Atari, Sony, etc- is also way too generalized as there's a pretty big range of internal development teams -and those are subject to change too, and expansion of the company is among those -Sega of America's in hose stuff of the early/mid 90s is one of the most drmatic cases) And then you have tons of cases where games were published by one company but developed by another (be it 2nd or 3rd party).

 

There are some 3rd party exceptions, but overall here's what I mean, IMHO:

Exceptions that make up the vast majority of the software on the system. (or systems if you want to talk about Nintendo in general)

 

If you consider two of the (arguably) top Nintendo franchises- Mario and Zelda- the characters, sprites, enemies, layouts, etc. are way too kid oriented. To me "adventure game" means the feel of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons - artwork and themes in that vein, not goofy, squashed children's book characters. Gannon?- please... give me a break. I mean, it seems that the adventure (and other) games that came after the NES all tried to be LIKE the NES, and I just don't like that Japanese animation (large eyes, goofy kid charaters, etc., etc.) graphics.

OK, so you're just biased against Japanese styling in general... and the very fact that the NES (especially the majority of its well excepted good library) was hugely Japanese supported with many top developers (Namco, Capcom, Konami, etc, etc) makes that all the more dramatic.

And there are plenty of other platforms where that's the case too... pretty much any with strong Japanese support. (Mega Drive, PCEngine, SNES, MSX, Master System, PC8801, PC9801, X68000, etc)

Hell, you want funny and kiddy Japanese style: try Alex Kidd or Wonderboy (or Monster World), among others on Sega platforms.

 

So yes, on the average, I'd say that would fall into the "odd taste" category... (as far as the average popular tastes tend to go) though for many cases I really don't see what you specify. (the original Zelda hardly fits that IMO... Metroid doesn't at all, and I could pich through the whole 1st/1nd party library but there's plenty of exceptions there too)

 

 

I mean, I enjoy the variety of art styles honestly be it in games or animated film/TV/comics, etc. (not that into comics... and I'm not a huge Anime fan as such, but I've seen a good amount and a ton of western stuff too, each have their merits... and I do rather like animated stuff in general )

 

 

One other thing about that art style is making things look good with the limited hardware... you could take the route that David Crane did with the rather funky looking (somewhat pitfall harry like) player sprite used in A Boy and His Blob (which is pretty much what you get if you want to push semi-realistic proportions and keep sprite use to a practical margin), or stylize things to better cater to the graphics... that was hardly limited to Japan or Nintendo, and western developerd used it rather significantly as well, but usually in a fairly different style.

 

Maybe it is just odd bias, or just plain odd taste...

Yeah, as I said before, it's a matter of taste... I know I'm a bit of an exception in my flexibility of games I enjoy (though I do have some definite preferences) -actually Mark Bussler from Classic Game Room is quite a bit that way too-. (from "ancient" to modern games with enjoyment across the board)

I've seen a lot of the exact opposite: especially people who don't care for the 70s/early 80s arcade/console stuff but really like the wave of games that came on consoles (and some computers) in the mid/late 80s, or other cases like not even liking the NES stuff as it was a bit too ugly/primitieve and startign with the 4th gen consoles/computer stuff. (and that's for retro gamers in general -or average people who still like older games... barring the many others who have distaste for old games in general)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

....and the NES has some pretty bitchin' music in W&W, Ikari 2, MM2 that I don't think anybody would compare to a hello kitty music box.

 

Yeah, maybe it is time I gave the NES a third or fourth chance. It is just a lot of "first impression" I have to overlook. I am sure there are some good games I am missing out on, but I just have a hard time getting past all the "most popular" ones that have been mentioned that I dislike so much. Like I said, when I think "Nintendo" I immediately think of SMB, funky Japanese graphics, kid themes, funky sprites with weird halos around them that look like they were pasted onto a tiled background, etc, etc. Right or wrong...

Halos???

Edited December 31, 2010 by kool kitty89

[kool kitty89]

Trying to play my own NES today, I was reminded of one key advantage of my 7800 ... the games always play when the 7800 is powered up.

 

I've had three or four NESes and none of them (including my current top-loader) worked very well. I either got a grey screen (top loader) most of the time or a blinking screen (front loaders) most of the time but my god, what a PAIN IN THE ASS.

 

Yeah, I know ... you can replace the connectors on the front loaders. I know you can clean the games and do all kinds of maintenance tricks. The problem is the NESes are the only classic systems that give me this level of hassle. I think they were terribly designed even though I quite like many of the games. It's always a damn crap shoot as to whether or not a game will properly load the first time or first 10 times I try.

Or you can just replace the connector and stop complaining Bonus points if you disable the lockout chip.

 

I read all of the replies in this thread, and they covered just about everything I could have said and more. Personally, I love the 7800 port of Commando. It shows that the 7800 had a lot of potential that was unfortunately wasted by the Tramiels. I couldn't stand the NES port of the game. I hated it so much that as soon as I got the game, I dug out my 7800 and started playing Commando there

 

That's all usually unnecessary... there's an easy fix for all of that... it's called cleaning all your card and the system itself. All cart based systems have that problem to some extent, some more than others (the VCS's often sealed carts reduced the problem substantially, but most others have it... the NES is more severe than others due to the funky cart mechanism... the Famicom/NES2 isn't really any worse than the N64/SMS/MD/SNES/etc -albeit the Genesis/MD especially the model 1 tends to have an extremely tight cart slot that forces contact throw some pretty hefty dirt at times )

 

But seriously 15 minutes to an hour and you can most often solve all significant problems in the console. Just open it up, and continue to disassemble until you're down to the loose motherboard and connector attached. Remove the connector and carefully clean the whole thing: beyond a normal cleaning kit, the simplest trick is the same as for other consoles (except those don't require disassembly) and that's to dampen a thin cloth/rag with isopropyl alcohol, wrap it over a credit card (or similar) and inset it into the cart slot several times (hitting ever pin several times). However, that's often not enough for the NES and polishing (usually 1000+ grit sand paper) used similarly over a credit card... another thing often suggested (but I've never had to do) is resetting the pins: that is, carefully bending the connector's pins slightly outward (usually with a small flat screwdriver or very small long/needle nose pliers) to make a tighter connection. (you need to be careful not to go too far or you'll end up with a nasty tight slot more like some aftermarket connectors that are a bitch to put games into and can damage the motherboard if the carts are pressed down -such connectors are safest to use with the cart left up)

And of course, pop the pin on the lockout chip (for the US/NA it's pin 4 on chip 3193A -a little 16 pin DIP), some say to ground it, but that's almost never an issue. (easiest thing is to take a small screwdriver and pop the pin out of the package)

That will totally solve the "blink" issue.

 

You should also check the board connecting the cart slot to the motherboard as that (rarely) can be dirty/oxidized/corroded as well.

 

 

Clean games as you would any cart based console: simplest is q-tip (or other paper/cotton swab) and alcohol, but better is to open the cart (usually with a security bit) and use a rubber eraser to polish the contacts directly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I want to play a great Beat-em up from that era, I'll pop in double Dragon or vigilante on the SMS. They both put anything on the NES to shame.

Hmm, the same Double Dragon that tons of people complain about for the extreme amount of flicker, odd hit detection, and borderline unplayability? I personally find it OK (it certainly looks nice other than the lacking animation -some can't stand the music either but I like it reasonably well -the FM rendition is awesome though, so is the remix on the NES ), but I can certainly see the complaints... then again a lot of consoles had relatively weak ports of that game including some much later ones like the botched MD/Genesis version.

 

On the other side, the NES's Double Dragon isn't an arcade port at all, so it obviously fails to fit that category... it's a total remake of the game for the NES that significantly changes the game... but many people (including quite a few SMS fans I know) find it to be a superior game overall. (I'm not sure I like it more, but I can certainly see the logic)

Edited December 31, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Tubular Gearhead]

....and the NES has some pretty bitchin' music in W&W, Ikari 2, MM2 that I don't think anybody would compare to a hello kitty music box.

 

Yeah, maybe it is time I gave the NES a third or fourth chance. It is just a lot of "first impression" I have to overlook. I am sure there are some good games I am missing out on, but I just have a hard time getting past all the "most popular" ones that have been mentioned that I dislike so much. Like I said, when I think "Nintendo" I immediately think of SMB, funky Japanese graphics, kid themes, funky sprites with weird halos around them that look like they were pasted onto a tiled background, etc, etc. Right or wrong...

Halos???

 

Wow, you have more patience than I have @ the keyboard.

 

Anyway, good discussion- but I guess it is just a matter of taste. Growing up in a heavily Atari influenced era (not just VCS, but 400/800, 5200, etc.), I noticed a distinct difference in the look and feel of the games post Nintendo, and as I said, I don't care for it. The younger generation would not necessarily feel this way as they grew up with the Nintendo graphics. I feel the same way about today's cartoons compared to the Merry Melodies and Looney Toons of the past. Back to games, it was/is an artistic change of culture compared to the way the games began and the way they were going in America and Europe. I prefer any Ultima over Zelda, I just wish the old ones were bigger with better graphics .

 

As far as halos, that is probably not the best description... but this is kind of what I mean as far as the characters looking like they are moving in a plane right above a tiled background and are not cohesive with it- maybe it is also just the poor color choice.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2010 by Tubular Gearhead

[kool kitty89]

Anyway, good discussion- but I guess it is just a matter of taste. Growing up in a heavily Atari influenced era (not just VCS, but 400/800, 5200, etc.), I noticed a distinct difference in the look and feel of the games post Nintendo, and as I said, I don't care for it. The younger generation would not necessarily feel this way as they grew up with the Nintendo graphics. I feel the same way about today's cartoons compared to the Merry Melodies and Looney Toons of the past.

Cartoons have declined overall though... especially the TV specific stuff, you've of course got the classic Disney and WB stuff (and classic Hanna Barbara stuff), but then you got a mix of other things coming in with lots of cheap animation and poorer production quality and often voice acting and writing to match (though OK for kids stuff, much doesn't hold up otherwise, with some exceptions), and that really started to have some major changes at the beginning of the 90s with higher quality animation, acting, writing, etc and that push through the 90s and trailed off with a few good shows/mini series (increasingly few) into the mid 2000s. (it died about the same time real broadcast network animated stuff died -literally there's pretty much only the 4kids owned stuff now -plus cable and some other educational/kiddie oriented stuff -PBS and the like) I was still taking interest in the network animated programming (still a few decent examples) up to spring of 2008 when the WB programming finally died and got displaced by 4kids crap. (I think there may be a handful of decent stuff on cable -including some graphic novel/comics style stuff- but I've never taken a huge interest in that as we haven't had cable since I was a toddler -we've downloaded a little of it though...)

Many often point to the Batman animated series being the starting point, though there was some prior to that too. (and a lot of that I was really young for -or in some cases only ever seeing it as reruns- and much would have been lost on me if it hadn't been for my dad taking interest in the stuff )

 

But that's another topic entirely. (and I didn't even get into the foreign -ie Japanese- stuff)

 

Back to games, it was/is an artistic change of culture compared to the way the games began and the way they were going in America and Europe. I prefer any Ultima over Zelda, I just wish the old ones were bigger with better graphics .

Well, the Zelda games are really a different (somewhat related) genre than the RPGs (western or Japanese), they're generally action-adventure games though there's some overlapping. I'm a fan of those types of games (western or japanese) along with graphic adventures (RPGs less so, though it depends) with the exception of Zelda 2 (don't like the style of that game... the top down and 3D games are all great though -I definitely prefer the 3D ones most and the action-adventure genre really expanded with 3D as well).

 

As for graphics, some of the early Ultima games did get upgraded remakes... the NES versions aren't really huge improvements though (of 3 and 4), but 4 on the SMS is a bit more substantial in that respect. (and from V onward you had better graphics on the native platforms anyway -especially with PC versions, much more so with VI/VII/VIII -there's a pretty good version of VI on the SNES too)

That's one of the series that I've really been meaning to go through properly, but I haven't gotten to yet. (mainly the somewhat later DOS specific versions)

 

As far as halos, that is probably not the best description... but this is kind of what I mean as far as the characters looking like they are moving in a plane right above a tiled background and are not cohesive with it- maybe it is also just the poor color choice.

 

 

Hmm, you mean the boardering color of the sprites? It's not even there on all edges (there's composite vidoe blur on others), and that's something that later consoles did too... and computers for that matter. I mean they could have chosen to leave the boarders off entirely and leave the inner colors as the edge (ie the darknut would have mostly the darker res on the edges rather than the orange shading and link would have only pure green around the edge of the shield and his hat, etc).

In any case, that's pretty normal video game art design that went forward (albeit with far more color)... what I hate is when stupid ugly black outlines are used... they normally look really off but in a handfull of cases work well. (very rarely -it's even worse for lower res games too, I've seen soem stuff on the Lynx that looks really funky because of that -Shadow of the Beast comes to mind, Comix Zone pulled it off well as it was supposed to be in a graphic novel/comic book style and was in a decently high resolution)

 

Would you say Crownland has "halos" or not?

[toptenmaterial]

I think that most of us have loyalty to a console (7800, NES, SMS etc) not because of it's capabilities vs the competition or the quality of it's games, but because it's the first thing that we cut our teeth on and because we fell in love with it. for me it's super mario bros, dk junior, zelda, castlevania, metroid and others, obviously it's very personal and subjective. that being said, I bought a 7800 about five years ago and thought it was a really nice system and I have played it regularly since them. but it's not my first love.

[mbd30]

I think that most of us have loyalty to a console (7800, NES, SMS etc) not because of it's capabilities vs the competition or the quality of it's games, but because it's the first thing that we cut our teeth on and because we fell in love with it.

 

 

That's definitely part of it. Although I grew up with Atari 2600 and then 7800, but I desperately wanted a NES. My friend had a Nintendo and the games were so much more interesting than Atari arcade classics rehashed for the umpteenth time.

 

I don't understand the nitpicking from Atari fanboys regarding NES graphical capabilities. Atari 2600 and SMS fans complaining about too much flicker??

 

Oh my gosh, look at these hideous NES graphics. I don't know how anyone can stomach it. Let's play some XBOX 360 instead.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGNdTY4vsHU

Edited January 1, 2011 by mbd30

[Tubular Gearhead]

I don't understand the nitpicking from Atari fanboys regarding NES graphical capabilities. Atari 2600 and SMS fans complaining about too much flicker??

 

Well, to get back on track, this topic is "7800 vs. NES" so flicker is never an issue, at least not for the 7800...

 

 

Oh my gosh, look at these hideous NES graphics. I don't know how anyone can stomach it. Let's play some XBOX 360 instead.

 

Once again, a great game that benefits from expanded ram and extra processors on the cartridge. Quite impressive, really it is, but we have nothing to compare it to in the 7800 library. Throw those same chips on a 7800 cartridge- and the Atari would have no problem impressing lots of people as well.

 

Who knows, maybe we'll see some good stuff on the horizon with the 7800XM.

 

Atari Fanboy? Never really thought about it, but I guess I am guilty...

[Tubular Gearhead]

BTW- HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Atarifever]

BTW- HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!

And happy 30th me! If I'm still reading debates about NES vs 7800 on my 60th, I'll consider the next 30 years pretty great.

[Underball]

I don't understand the nitpicking from Atari fanboys regarding NES graphical capabilities. Atari 2600 and SMS fans complaining about too much flicker??

see I think exactly the opposite. I don't really understand the mentality of NES apologists coming to a site dedicated to Atari systems looking for arguments with Atari fans over them thinking the NES is better.

 

I wouldn't even know about or care to find a single NES dedicated site to go to looking to troll fir an argument. It's beneath me. I come here because I actually like Atari systems.

[The Usotsuki]

Sounds like C64 or Spectrum fanboys.

[prostx23]

I don't understand the nitpicking from Atari fanboys regarding NES graphical capabilities. Atari 2600 and SMS fans complaining about too much flicker??

see I think exactly the opposite. I don't really understand the mentality of NES apologists coming to a site dedicated to Atari systems looking for arguments with Atari fans over them thinking the NES is better.

 

I wouldn't even know about or care to find a single NES dedicated site to go to looking to troll fir an argument. It's beneath me. I come here because I actually like Atari systems.

 

 

I'm a fan of both the 7800 and the NES, but I have to agree, why would someone come to this board (an Atari board) and take offense to someone saying they prefer an Atari system.

[toptenmaterial]

maybe a straight comparison is in arcade games ported to both NES and the 7800. both systems had an impressive selection of arcade titles.

[mbd30]

I don't understand the nitpicking from Atari fanboys regarding NES graphical capabilities. Atari 2600 and SMS fans complaining about too much flicker??

see I think exactly the opposite. I don't really understand the mentality of NES apologists coming to a site dedicated to Atari systems looking for arguments with Atari fans over them thinking the NES is better.

 

I wouldn't even know about or care to find a single NES dedicated site to go to looking to troll fir an argument. It's beneath me. I come here because I actually like Atari systems.

 

To be fair, I was defending NES graphics in a pre-existing discussion about "NES vs 7800" where there was already quit a bit of heated argument on the subject. It's not like I just barged in with a new troll thread saying "NES RULEZ! ATARI DROOLZ!" or something like that.

 

I guess I could have been less bluntly confrontational in tone. Sorry.

Edited January 2, 2011 by mbd30

[Reinhardt]

Both are great consoles. At the end of the day they are both winners in my book. And which do I like better? Well that depends on the day and the mood.

[PAC MAN FEVER]

i totally agree with Reinhardt they both really good.

[etschuetz]

The issue with System vs System arguments that are not basing their argument on specifications, programming and techniques of such, and developers/publishers. They base the arguments over justification of fandom. The 7800 vs NES vs SMS is old. IT all boils down to which had the games you liked. Personally, I never had an SMS, but am working towards getting one. I need to start a NES collection, but will hold off. I have played all of them in either physical form or emulation. Each has great games worth playing. Now, let me go play my Nintendo Master 7800 system

[Metal Ghost]

BTW- HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!

And happy 30th me! If I'm still reading debates about NES vs 7800 on my 60th, I'll consider the next 30 years pretty great.

 

 

I love that sentiment! I'm just a tad older at 33, and couldn't agree more!

[kool kitty89]

I think that most of us have loyalty to a console (7800, NES, SMS etc) not because of it's capabilities vs the competition or the quality of it's games, but because it's the first thing that we cut our teeth on and because we fell in love with it. for me it's super mario bros, dk junior, zelda, castlevania, metroid and others, obviously it's very personal and subjective. that being said, I bought a 7800 about five years ago and thought it was a really nice system and I have played it regularly since them. but it's not my first love.

That's not it for me... though systems I've had more experience with give me stronger opinions in general (both like or dislike), and then there's sort of a fundamental push (in my mind) for the underdog or such... especially with missed opportunities for whatever reason (and not fundamentally poor products even when they were new -like the Arcadia 2001). I've also always been fascinated by old/classic/historical stuff since I was a little kid. I grew up with an NES and some PC games in the early/mid 90s (didn't get an SNES until about 1996 and N64 christmas of 1999), but I was very excited to set up a boxed up Atari VCS I found in storage at home in the late 90s and I honestly wasn't disappointed when we finally got it set up.

 

I don't own any other Atari system, but I've played some with friends and emulated more (and seen videos of more)... I never owned a single Sega system either, but didn't have a huge bias against it either (though I was a bit ignorant), but getting into a wider breadth of retro gaming in general and emulation brought me to take more interest in that and ended up getting into Sega-16 and eventually buying a Sega CD and Genesis early last year (actually have a few spare Genesis consoles now too from some local deals I found).

 

In spite of it being my first console, the NES isn't even in my top 5 favorite game platforms (probably top 10 though), though I know some of my favorites don't mesh with the average consensus either, though I do have a couple friends who are somewhat similarly interested as "general purpose" gamers as such (don't care about the age/graphics but just general fun -and may have an interest because of it being old/classic/unique), though somewhat less so for some of the people I've specifically met in the retro community. (I know some who like the entire span of games/consoles/computers up to the 3D stuff and then dropping off a bit -some of that is just the gameplay though similar to how I don't favor some 3D stuff -especially platformers- as I tend to fare poorly in most of them and get frustrated)

 

 

I like modern games a lot too (actually I've always favored a number of 3D genres -or even pseudo 3D in earlier incarnations-), but I have a lot of fun with a wide range of genres, though I'm far better at some than others.

I can understand why some people really only like a limited span of genres (be it those favoring new or old or one company over another), but many people just come off as snobbish/elitist jerks and that gets to me... honestly, that's what compelled me to push this off topic discussion.

Of course, there's a point where you've got to drop the subject and not bother with attempting a reasonable discussion on the topic.

One of the main reason I like Atariage and Sega 16 in general is that they at least have a good chunk of open-minded and well rounded people on them for games/computers/tech stuff in general opposed to some other gaming/computer sites that are full of blatant fans and such where you can't even mange a reasonable/logical discussion on many topics.

 

Hell, on Atariage or Sega-16 alone there's a ton of internal conflicting views as well, but at least there's many cases of useful discussion on such topics (though some degrade into random flame wars or just trolling)... there's the complex web of those favoring one platform or a conflicted group of platforms in various combinations of VCS/A8/C64/Amiga/ST/5200/7800/Lynx/Jaguar let alone 3rd party systems... and on the Sega side you've got a fair bit also around the SMS/MD/GG/CD/32x/Saturn/Dreamcast.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand the nitpicking from Atari fanboys regarding NES graphical capabilities. Atari 2600 and SMS fans complaining about too much flicker??

 

Oh my gosh, look at these hideous NES graphics. I don't know how anyone can stomach it. Let's play some XBOX 360 instead.

Exactly... I can understand some degree of favoritism, or especially a dislike for the overhyped Nintendo recognition in general, but that's not the context of what was being thrown out... correcting misconceived superiority or false history (like Nintendo single-handedly reviving the North American market) is one thing, but blanket derision of a system/company without concessions is something else.

 

And that flicker thing is just crazy... the NES has the exact same sprite per line limits as the SMS... though that part of the discussion was getting more into SMS fanboyism than anything. (there's no denying it had advantages -the main one being the 4 bit per pixel graphics -allowing up to 15/16 unique color per sprite/tile cell rather than 3/4 on the NES -or other 2bpp systems like the C64- though it's not as simple as that either -that's been done to death though as has the formal comparison of the NES and 7800 -albeit I haven't seen a really organized trad-offs comparison like some of the NES/SMS/MD/PCE/SNES comparisons on Sega-16)

Edited January 4, 2011 by kool kitty89

[kool kitty89]

Well, to get back on track, this topic is "7800 vs. NES" so flicker is never an issue, at least not for the 7800...

Quite true, and it's a shame it rarely got to show it off (and never in a really spectacular manner), though there's other limits in practical use as well, some of which were tied to the backwards compatible low-cost design and 1984 (limited RAM, single shared CPU/video bus, limited expansion support, etc -though at least it had audio in which the SMS lacked and the NES removed from the famicom slot, so western games lost that neat feature of onboard sound -some MSX games also used that along with other cases of sound add-ons)

And of the stock systems, the biggest limits (in common use) are resolution and sound... (albeit resolution is also a major issue with the C64, A8 and many other platforms with different trade-offs)

 

Once again, a great game that benefits from expanded ram and extra processors on the cartridge. Quite impressive, really it is, but we have nothing to compare it to in the 7800 library. Throw those same chips on a 7800 cartridge- and the Atari would have no problem impressing lots of people as well.

That's not quite true... the fundamental capabilities of the 2 systems and fundamentally different architectures. And there's a ton of totally non-enhanced NES games, just plain dual bus ROMs (dedicated CPU and VROM as the design intended -one area of added expense and complexity over others -the CV/SG-1000/SMS and many others used dedicated VRAM but a single cart bus shared with the CPU bus).

A few games used RAM expansion on-cart (namely V-RAM rather than ROM -for different reasons) and others used mappers, but mappers aren't really extensive coprocessor either and similar chips wouldn't be of the same sort of utility on the 7800. (RAM could be though, a framebuffer would be one interesting possibility, or larger/more complex display lists and DLLs) One of the more significant use of mappers (including the MMC5) was to break the 16x16 color attribute cells down to 8x8 cells (allowing each tile/character to select a separate palette rather than 2x2 blocks sharing the same 3 colors+common BG color)

 

AFIK, Captain Skyhawk doesn't use any mappers or RAM expansion, so none of that would apply anyway.

 

http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/hacks/nes/misc/full-palette.png

The NES also had a broader color palette over the 7800, though overall they were pretty competitive (256 unique colors/shades on the 7800 vs ~448 unique colors/shades on the NES though only 1 56 color/shade set can be used per scanline -or only one set per frame if no interrupts are use to modify the palette, and oddly few NES games made use of that potential in spite of the hardware supporting hblank interrupts), in any case, both of the consoles chroma/luma (I believe both use YCbCr colorspace) are a good bit better than the restricted 6-bit RGB on the SMS (or CoCo 3 for that matter -or EGA, but almost no games used the 640x350 mode). Of course, it's not just the palette, but how that can be displayed on-screen that matters and then you've got comparisons of Dsiplay lists/DLLs and the tilemaps, different sprite mechanisms, etc. (going back to the SMS comparison, the NES and SMS both use indexed colors and the same number of color indexes for that matter with 32 indexed colors... but they're implemented differently with the 4-bit vs 2-bit pixels of the SMS and NES with the SMS using 2 palettes of 15 colors+transparent plus a far BG color while the NES uses 8 palettes of 3 colors+transparent and a far BG color, so in that sense it's 31 vs 25 colors on-screen, but then there's the applicable use with only 3 colors per sprite/tile cell vs 15 on the SMS -albeit you often have much less than 15 usable colors due to practical use of shared palettes and similar cases on the NES where you'd have less than 3/4 colors per cell... then there's the fact that only 1 15 color palette can be used for sprites -both on BGs- for the SMS and without mappers the NES has to use larger 16x16 color attribute cells rather than 8x8 cells on the SMS to select between the 2 palettes for BG characters, then there's the fundamentally limited palette of the SMS ... likewise there's an even more extreme comparison with the GBC and GameGear with the GBC having a much larger palette and many more indexes but being limited to 2-bit cells like the NES rather than the GG's 4-bit cells -same as SMS but with a larger master palette of 12-bit RGB and overall that gives an edge to the GG as well -or it would have if it had still been prominently marketeted in the late 90s)

 

Hmm, actually the potential for raster interrupts on the NES should have given an additional advantage over the SMS for color on a per line basis (something Atari platforms definiely took advantage of, and the Amiga -and occasionally the MD, SNES, and PCE), it's actually a bit odd that they didn't push that feature. (not just reloading indexed palettes, but the ability to switch chroma/luma palette steps as well and make use of the full 448 colors on a single screen) Or with more careful use it could have been used for sprites as well as the VCS, A8, 7800, and some others (I think several TI9918 based platforms and maybe the C64) did, though there would be more software tricks involved for some things than the DLIs supported directly by ANTIC.

 

I know demos have pushed that more, but I'm not sure of any full homebrew games that pushed it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a fan of both the 7800 and the NES, but I have to agree, why would someone come to this board (an Atari board) and take offense to someone saying they prefer an Atari system.

That wasn't the issue... it was more about spewing random false crap on the NES (which is overrated IMO, but the comments were still false/inflamitory generalizations and uncalled for).

For that matter it wasn't even about an Atari system for the most part, but a general dig against Nintendo and more of a reference to the Master System (certainl underrated... in the US at least) than anything else... or that how it started in the recent segment of off topic discussion.

 

I don't understand the nitpicking from Atari fanboys regarding NES graphical capabilities. Atari 2600 and SMS fans complaining about too much flicker??

see I think exactly the opposite. I don't really understand the mentality of NES apologists coming to a site dedicated to Atari systems looking for arguments with Atari fans over them thinking the NES is better.

 

I wouldn't even know about or care to find a single NES dedicated site to go to looking to troll fir an argument. It's beneath me. I come here because I actually like Atari systems.

 

To be fair, I was defending NES graphics in a pre-existing discussion about "NES vs 7800" where there was already quit a bit of heated argument on the subject. It's not like I just barged in with a new troll thread saying "NES RULEZ! ATARI DROOLZ!" or something like that.

 

I guess I could have been less bluntly confrontational in tone. Sorry.

Exactly, it was the same for what I was arguing too, but more detailed (and somewhat rambling...), but yeah, defending against unjustified/biased attacks tangent to any realistic discussion, and not just a matter of taste either, but seemingly trollish/antagonistic comments.

I'm all for knocking the NES down from it's overrated/biased/misinformed position, but certainly not for making it out for less than it really was. (among the things that it certainly was is the start of a home gaming revolution in Japan in 1983, a similar milestone as the VCS in the US, being very technically impressive for 1983, a massive success expertly managed by a relatively tiny company -albeit eventually tying into some significant monopolisic/illegal practices, and a lot more on both sides of things)

 

 

As for Nintendo forums... the only one I'd consider going anywhere near is Nintendoage and even that's a bit too full of biased fans for my taste (I've been tempted to for a few specific topics of interest, but some of those are more tech specific anyway and probably more suited for one of the tech-specific forums), I prefer some of the more tempered retro communities, and Atariage (and Sega-16) is very much that way... though there's obvious exceptions and conflicts. (including a lot of infighting among different Atari platforms -let alone others like C64, Amiga, or other game consoles)

For a while I looked around for good Nintendo retro forums, but there's not anything that fully compares to what I've seen on AA and Sega-16... I'd much more likely start a discussion on either of those if I wanted a relatively balanced (and informed) discussion on something Nintendo related than on a Nintendo forum.

 

 

The issue with System vs System arguments that are not basing their argument on specifications, programming and techniques of such, and developers/publishers. They base the arguments over justification of fandom. The 7800 vs NES vs SMS is old. IT all boils down to which had the games you liked. Personally, I never had an SMS, but am working towards getting one. I need to start a NES collection, but will hold off. I have played all of them in either physical form or emulation. Each has great games worth playing. Now, let me go play my Nintendo Master 7800 system

Not always that either... you could compare cases where technical ability was a critical issue: I know some people who know of a lot of SMS games they would like or wanted to like, but couldn't stand the sound/music. (in one particular case, I know an RPG fan who has a pretty good idea that he'd like Phantasy Star, but can't bear the PSG music... the FM music is great but there's no translation of that so far and the English version removed the FM)

 

Some cases it's not at all related to nostalgia or being a fan, but sheer personal taste/preference. (earlier on this discussion, art direction/style of both character designs -especially "too Japanese" looking or "ugly" color schemes were brought up) Such taste can drive people away from some really early consoles too, like 2600 games being just too primitive for some people's tastes (or some A8 games for that matter -or other computer games from the very early 80s or late 70s), and a myriad of other preferences in graphics, sound, art style (music, sfx, graphics, etc) and that's just in the retro community. (more if you include average games more into the modern stuff specifically)

 

 

I personally like to try anything across the board, and for the most part I find some interest in all of it.... as I mentioned before, that's one reason I took a liking to Mark Bussler's Classic Game Room. (not totally unbiased, but an extremely balanced range of retro to modern games -and a good bit of wit/humor mixed in with fairly useful reviews)

[Arkhan]

I prefer the NES over the 7800 mostly because I can't recall a single 7800 game with much depth to it. If I want arcade games, the 2600 did fine.

 

My favorite NES games are:

 

Battle of Olympus

Faxanadu

Legacy of the Wizard

Little Nemo

Contra

Castlevania 2

and some others

 

but I think you can see most of what I play are adventure games, and the 7800 really didn't have any. If they did, I sure missed them.

 

By the time the 7800 game out, lesser machines (The MSX1) were doing role playing games, and adventure games that had more depth/stuff going on.

 

 

The 7800's library is fun, they play nice, but wheres the depth!

[akator]

It is all a matter of perspective... both then and now.

 

I like the 7800 more than the NES because of personal preference. Back then, I didn't know anyone my age with a NES. They all had SMS or 7800 because of arcade ports. The NES had some great arcade ports, but they were overshadowed by games that we had all already played earlier versions of on home computers. Sure, Super Mario Bros. X and Zelda were great... but not so much to us. We had already played games very similar to those many years before. Basically, the NES was what your kid brother, or the kid brother of your friends played. We had grown up the arcade, and wanted the cool home arcade ports that the SMS and 7800 offered.

 

Of course, a few of my friends were exceptions. We ridiculed them for playing kids games and not having played the same stuff on the Apple II, C64, and even the PC.

 

Many years have passed. I have grown to appreciate the NES, because it should be appreciated for what it is and what it offers. I discovered many great NES arcade ports and "more adult" games that I was unaware of 20 years ago. Several NES consoles and tons of specialized controllers are in my collection.

 

However... none of that will change the taint of my perspective from the late 80s and early 90s. The NES was for kids. It was marketed to a younger demographic, most of the games they promoted felt stale to "veterans" like me, and it didn't capture much interest at the time. Even today I have a difficult time getting enthused about games on the NES that were basically the same as titles I had played years before. Sure, the NES versions of Pacman/Donkey Kong/Galaga looked great, but by that time I had played great computer ports and moved onto OutRun/After Burner/R-Type and similar later "more sophisticated" games.

 

Then along came the Genesis, which I didn't care much about until about 91. It blew away the NES... and the SMS... and the 7800. It provided awesome arcade and more lengthy "home" titles.

 

From my experience/perspective, the NES was for twerps who were first discovering "new versions" of all the awesome stuff from the decade before. By the time the NES was interesting for me, the Genesis came along and captured my attention.

 

The NES wasn't for me at the time, and no matter how much I appreciate it now, it still really isn't for me. It's like visiting another country where people speak another language and no matter how much I try I'm still a foreigner. Like in Star Trek, when the Klingons insist that Shakespeare could only be properly understood in the "original Klingon." I feel that I'm a gamer, and NES fans insist that games can only be "appreciated on the NES." Even when we know that those same genres and many much better games originated on other platforms and computers...

Edited January 4, 2011 by akator

[GroovyBee]

Well, to get back on track, this topic is "7800 vs. NES" so flicker is never an issue, at least not for the 7800...

 

I disagree. If you use up your MARIA bandwidth you'll see flickering. By that I mean sprites will no longer be drawn. If you get to that point in development you have to redesign the game.