NES vs 7800

[4Ks]

But can it do every single of tricks I mentioned on screen at the same time? And Kirby's Adventure frequently has 5-10 enemies on the screen (one level even has an area with 20 wheel enemies rushing around you at once).

 

The 7800 can do animated scrolling backdrops.

 

You're avoiding my question. I'll bold it so you can't skirt around it: can 7800 do all the things I mentioned at the same time?

 

Its all to do with how a programmer makes best use of the hardware. Don't forget that the 7800 was never pushed during its commercial lifetime.

 

Gorf said the same thing time and time again about Jaguar, yet no one ever saw any solid evidence that it was true. I'm seeing the same thing here.

[JayWI]

My 25 year old system is better than your 25 year old system. Of course we all know one thing....

 

Any 25 year old system is better than the jaguar.

[Tubular Gearhead]

Disclaimer right up front:

I am a self-proclaimed "king" of the search function, but I haven't found what I was looking for about the NES. I know a lot about the circuits of old game systems, and have modified quite a few, but I am really not as familiar with the NES as some of you folks. So please help if you can.

 

After all my reading I can't find a detailed discussion of the actual chips contained in the NES. I don't really understand why the system is thought to be so much more powerful than the 7800. I understand that it benefitted by lots of funding, great programmers, cartridges with added circuits, etc. I know it could do tiles very well. But what chips EXACTLY did it have that would preclude the 7800 from keeping up- excluding the sound issue?

 

Lets see:

 

They both had an 8-bit cpu 6052 or equivalent. We all know about Maria, but what exactly did NES have in the basic box for graphics that surpassed what the 7800 had?

 

I mean, given as much memory as you want (which the 7800 will soon have), and talented programmers, can we without a doubt say that because of *XXXX* hardware in the NES that the 7800 could not do the same game?

[tep392]

Disclaimer right up front:

I am a self-proclaimed "king" of the search function, but I haven't found what I was looking for about the NES. I know a lot about the circuits of old game systems, and have modified quite a few, but I am really not as familiar with the NES as some of you folks. So please help if you can.

 

After all my reading I can't find a detailed discussion of the actual chips contained in the NES. I don't really understand why the system is thought to be so much more powerful than the 7800. I understand that it benefitted by lots of funding, great programmers, cartridges with added circuits, etc. I know it could do tiles very well. But what chips EXACTLY did it have that would preclude the 7800 from keeping up- excluding the sound issue?

 

Lets see:

 

They both had an 8-bit cpu 6052 or equivalent. We all know about Maria, but what exactly did NES have in the basic box for graphics that surpassed what the 7800 had?

 

I mean, given as much memory as you want (which the 7800 will soon have), and talented programmers, can we without a doubt say that because of *XXXX* hardware in the NES that the 7800 could not do the same game?

This is interesting.

 

I did some searching and found some details on the Kirby's Adventure cartridge. Kirby's adventure used the MMC5 memory management chip which added A LOT of capability not built into the NES. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison when you consider the hardware built into the cart. The upcoming XM might even it out a bit though.

 

Here's some of the text I found on the MMC5

MMC5

 

Manufacturer: Nintendo

Used in: Castlevania 3, Kirby's adventure, ect

The MMC5 chip was the best, and most expensive of the MMC chips. This chip has been avoided many times by the developers of games due to the price of this chip. The chip expanses the memory, add two sound channels, and enables vertical scrolling. This chip let the game use 16,384 tiles, where first only 256 tiles were possible. Every tile can have an own color.

 

These NES games were using the MMC5:

 

Castlevania 3

Kirby's adventure

Just Breed

Metal Slader Glory

Gun Sight

Uchuu Keibitai SDF

Nobunaga's Ambition II

 

 

MMC5

 

This chip has a very large set of functionality included in it- 1K of extra RAM for general use or attribute table use, 8*8 bit multiplier, extra sound channels, split screen scrolling, control for up to 64K of WRAM, battery backup control, and some other goodies.

 

 

The newest of the MMC chips for the NES. The first game it was used for was Castlevania 3: Draculas Curse. This chip has many new and expanded features that accompanied it. The MMC5 improved the battery backup feature so you wouldn't have to push reset when you turn off the NES to prevent data loss. The chip also allows greater color definition and partial screen scrolling (not locked like SMB3). It is also a customized mathematics module that took much strain off the CPU and took care of many tasks like the internal clock, and other repetitive functions.

The MMC5 also allowed a vertical split screen scroll which means you can have a side bar of information while the scrolling action of the game continues. The chip has a memory capacity of 8 Megs (1,048,576 bits). Another MMC5 game, and probably the only one, is Kirby's Adventure. A few games which this chip had a maximum game page size of 64x16kb.

Edited December 20, 2010 by tep392

[Tubular Gearhead]

Thank you tep392, that is very enlightening.

[Rex Dart]

 

I understand that the sprite-pushing is impressive (it is), but that doesn't mean it could do Kirby's Adventure. Or even anything as nice-looking as Super Mario Bros 2. Doesn't mean that it can't, either, but I guess it takes more than "look at robotron" to convince me.

 

He's coded the 7800 extensively and his educated opinion is that it can. Have you coded the 7800 extensively to provide an educated opinion that it can't?

 

I guess I just see a lot of empty talk here about what could've been or should've been, and seldom any demonstrations.

 

Search is your friend.

 

 

My point was that I've seen enough educated opinions & not enough Kirby-level demonstrations.

No, I haven't coded the 7800 extensively enough to provide an educated opinion either way, which is why I haven't done so. I just implied that you can only extrapolate so much about a console's capabilities from the ol' "My Robotron, it has many sprites" argument.

 

 

 

And as far as Search is concerned...

 

No results found for 'impressive'.

No results found for 'better than NES'.

1 result found for 'capable'.

 

Searching for 'demo' turns up a screenshot of a three-color Yoshi & some pink chickens. Not really sure what you want me to search for.

[Tubular Gearhead]

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison when you consider the hardware built into the cart.

 

Totally agree.

 

 

So I was just thinking about this...

 

If someone were to shoehorn the Xbox360 chips into a 7800 cartridge, then we could plug it in and finally quiet the NES fanboys.

[GroovyBee]

Gorf said the same thing time and time again about Jaguar, yet no one ever saw any solid evidence that it was true. I'm seeing the same thing here.

 

So developing 7 games (announced) and porting one from the BBC micro doesn't give me insight into what the stock console can do?

[GroovyBee]

I understand that the sprite-pushing is impressive (it is), but that doesn't mean it could do Kirby's Adventure. Or even anything as nice-looking as Super Mario Bros 2. Doesn't mean that it can't, either, but I guess it takes more than "look at robotron" to convince me.

 

The 7800 wasn't pushed at all back in the day. Comparing it against all the generations of NES games with hardware assist in the cart is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

And I'm not trying to crap on your point about Robotron - like I said, it IS impressive - but I guess I just see a lot of empty talk here about what could've been or should've been, and seldom any demonstrations.

 

I suggest you look at Apple Snaffle or Dungeon! if you want a taste of what the 7800 is capable of.

[GroovyBee]

My point was that I've seen enough educated opinions & not enough Kirby-level demonstrations.

No, I haven't coded the 7800 extensively enough to provide an educated opinion either way, which is why I haven't done so. I just implied that you can only extrapolate so much about a console's capabilities from the ol' "My Robotron, it has many sprites" argument.

 

Yet you dismiss the opinion of somebody who has written 7 games and various utilities for the system.

[Rex Dart]

My point was that I've seen enough educated opinions & not enough Kirby-level demonstrations.

No, I haven't coded the 7800 extensively enough to provide an educated opinion either way, which is why I haven't done so. I just implied that you can only extrapolate so much about a console's capabilities from the ol' "My Robotron, it has many sprites" argument.

 

Yet you dismiss the opinion of somebody who has written 7 games and various utilities for the system.

 

 

Call me a Doubting Thomas. I'll check out Apple Snaffle when I'm able. Dungeon! does indeed look very nice, but I can't really tell much from still images.

[gdement]

The 7800 graphics chip is more flexible but less specialized than the NES. How much it can actually do in the real world comes down to how much CPU time you have left. That's really the limiting resource in the machine. It's difficult to predict how many cycles you'll have for graphics fanciness without digging into a game design in detail. Even then you'll get disagreement between programmers who have different ideas on the best approach.

 

I don't know Kirby, but most NES games moved to the 7800 would be unlikely to make the transition without switching to lower resolution. Unfortunately the 7800 doesn't have an in-between graphics mode comparable to the NES' 256 pixel display with decent color. The 7800's options are 160 mode with more color, and 320 mode with little color and much less speed. 320 mode isn't very practical for most gameplay graphics.

 

And I'm not trying to crap on your point about Robotron - like I said, it IS impressive - but I guess I just see a lot of empty talk here about what could've been or should've been, and seldom any demonstrations.

Coding even a demo takes a lot of time and effort, most people aren't going to waste time on it just to support an argument. There's nothing wrong with theorizing on a system's abilities without code to prove it.

But you're right to be skeptical. Things that should be possible in theory often prove more difficult in practice. Even demos can be misleading since they don't necessarily represent the more complex demands of a real game.

[Godzilla]

compare robotron on the 7800 to ANYTHING on the nes, see how close you get (as far as moving objects,). and yes, imagine if the 7800 had years of development by top programmers instead of basically pre-release software and one little bottom-shelf development push years after hardware release...

 

 

Are you suggesting it might've eventually had a bunch of low-color sprites shuffling over a COLOR background?

 

I understand that the sprite-pushing is impressive (it is), but that doesn't mean it could do Kirby's Adventure. Or even anything as nice-looking as Super Mario Bros 2. Doesn't mean that it can't, either, but I guess it takes more than "look at robotron" to convince me.

 

And I'm not trying to crap on your point about Robotron - like I said, it IS impressive - but I guess I just see a lot of empty talk here about what could've been or should've been, and seldom any demonstrations.

 

well, I don't think you can eveen come close to an apples to apples on this one, so it requires one to do a lot of 'what if' and since I don't have the time or mad phat skillz to bring years of top-tier development down upon the 7800 to bring it to a parity point with the nes, all I can do is assume and suppose. (which makes and an ass and a supp out of u and me!) All that being said, i challenge you to show me anything on the nes that is robos equal. So I imagine that if the 78 can trump the nes, without years of development behind it, I think WITH years behind it, it wouldn't even break a sweat (imho.)

[Tubular Gearhead]

So I was just thinking about this...

 

If someone were to shoehorn the Xbox360 chips into a 7800 cartridge, then we could plug it in and finally quiet the NES fanboys.

 

This was a joke, and meant w/o disrespect to any NES fanboys. But just to clarify my sarcasm (incase my point was not clear), I believe what was done with Kirby's Adventure was a scaled down version of exactly my prior post- and like others have stated- not a fair comparison.

 

Kind of like how the functionality of the VCS adaptor for the ColecoVision was all on the expansion module and only used the rf of the CV. Sounds like all the real "amazing" processing in Kirby's was going on in the cartridge and not nesessarily in the NES- but the NES gets credit for it...

 

It seems that if a developer were to remake the same game for the 7800 with the MMC5 chip, an additional sound chip, and whatever else on the cartridge (probably with a non-standard expanded case), it would be a fair comparison and probably even more so as the 7800 would inherently be able to move a lot of objects around w/o flicker.

 

I think the only meaningful comparison is between the bare, basic machines. I think in this regard the 7800 can more than stand toe-to-toe with the NES.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Tubular Gearhead

[ZylonBane]

The 7800 graphics chip is more flexible but less specialized than the NES. How much it can actually do in the real world comes down to how much CPU time you have left. That's really the limiting resource in the machine.

And memory bandwidth, which MARIA can easily suck dry. Just look at Midnight Mutants when a lot of monsters are on the same row.

[4Ks]

Gorf said the same thing time and time again about Jaguar, yet no one ever saw any solid evidence that it was true. I'm seeing the same thing here.

 

So developing 7 games (announced) and porting one from the BBC micro doesn't give me insight into what the stock console can do?

 

And none of your precious homebrews you flout around so much have even one single thing NES can't do. And before you say it, I'm NOT an NES fanboy. I've never been the biggest fan of NES, and I would honestly much rather have a 7800. However, all this talk of yours about how 7800 can do anything NES can do is just that: talk. Even on stock hardware, NES is simply able to push more pixels than 7800. For a comparison, let's look at Mario Bros., which had no extra chips in either system:

 

NES

 

 

7800

 

 

Unless you're blind in one eye and can't see out the other, you can see that NES has the upper hand.

[+Mitch]

Those are emulation screenshots. What's your point?

 

Why don't you buy a Flashback and see how bad some of the 7800 games look on the NES.

 

Mitch

[The_Laird]

What about we compare Ballblazer then?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyv6miGxW0k

 

On the NES

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57t83OvRdZM&feature=related

 

On the 7800

 

VERY CLEAR to see which one is better, even Stevie Wonder can see the 7800 version is better. It wipes the floor with the NES version in every way INCLUDING SOUND!

Edited December 21, 2010 by The_Laird

[Tubular Gearhead]

Was the 7800 Mario Bros. programmed the best it could be? Could it have been done in higher res mode??? How much effort was spent on it?

[DracIsBack]

And none of your precious homebrews you flout around so much have even one single thing NES can't do.

 

Is there any reason why you need to be so rude as to give insulting remarks like "your precious homebrews you flout around"? GroovyBee has a demo that puts 169 colors on the screen at once on the 7800 and a live game (Halloween) that puts more than 64 colors on the screen at once. Haven't seen an NES game that does that and I wonder how that would work with its 52 color palette?

 

"all this talk of yours about how 7800 can do anything NES can do is just that:"

 

 

Did he say "the 7800 can do anything the NES can do?" I don't recall that. I do recall him saying that the

 

a) 7800 was not pushed as hard as it could have been;

 

and

 

b) Comparing a seventh generation NES game from a top developer with a big budget, packaged in a cart with an MM5 chip is not always a fair comparison when claiming what a system can or cannot do.

 

Even on stock hardware, NES is simply able to push more pixels than 7800.

 

The highest resolution 7800 games are 320 pixels wide. Are there NES games that are 320 pixels wide?

 

My point is not that there aren't NES advantages, but that it's never clear cut.

Edited December 21, 2010 by DracIsBack

[Tubular Gearhead]

The highest resolution 7800 games are 320 pixels wide. Are there NES games that are 320 pixels wide?

 

For example, take 7800 Tower Toppler, underwater levels, parallax scrolling and all, and picture that engine re-worked as a multi directional scrolling platformer. Expand it, refine it, and there is a theoretical example of what the 7800 could do in stock form.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Yet you dismiss the opinion of somebody who has written 7 games and various utilities for the system.

 

Hey! Stop arguing, it's distracting you from finishing Apple Snaffle! :D

[4Ks]

What about we compare Ballblazer then?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyv6miGxW0k

 

On the NES

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57t83OvRdZM&feature=related

 

On the 7800

 

VERY CLEAR to see which one is better, even Stevie Wonder can see the 7800 version is better. It wipes the floor with the NES version in every way INCLUDING SOUND!

 

There's a difference between a system not being able to handle a game and a game being poorly programmed. You only chose Ballblazer because you can't stand seeing 7800 getting creamed. Besides, it's the exact opposite situation with Double Dragon:

 

NES

 

 

7800

 

 

Not only is the 7800 version not even half as good (and I don't think anyone will argue that), it also happens to be due to 7800's limitations. Now, for a comparison of a game that is great on both, let's see Galaga:

 

NES

 

 

7800

 

 

As great-looking as the 7800 version is, the NES version still wins. Only the most hard-headed 7800 fan would argue over which version is closer to the arcade original.

 

Was the 7800 Mario Bros. programmed the best it could be? Could it have been done in higher res mode??? How much effort was spent on it?

 

Huh. You guys argue that 7800 games should only be compared with NES games running on stock hardware. I do just that with Mario Bros., and then you say 7800 Mario Bros. shouldn't be compared because it's not programmed the best it can be (or at least, that's what it sounds like)?

 

Is there any reason why you need to be so rude as to give insulting remarks like "your precious homebrews you flout around"? GroovyBee has a demo that puts 169 colors on the screen at once on the 7800 and a live game (Halloween) that puts more than 64 colors on the screen at once. Haven't seen an NES game that does that and I wonder how that would work with its 52 color palette?

 

I just get sick and tired of GroovyBee's constant assertions that how 7800 is the most powerful 8-bit system, his incessant talk about how sweet his homebrews are, and, most of all, his stubbornness. He just can't accept that NES does indeed have strengths that 7800 doesn't, and he constantly gets into arguments with people about it.

 

Sigh... I think I just need to stay out of any and all online arguments for the rest of my life (in particular, arguments about NES/7800/Jaguar). Things always end up like this, and nobody comes out the better for it. I'm going to go play my Prosystem emulator and cool down.

[JayWI]

Point of clarification....does it really matter and who gets the cookie when they "win"?

[Tubular Gearhead]

 

Tubular Gearhead said:

 

Was the 7800 Mario Bros. programmed the best it could be? Could it have been done in higher res mode??? How much effort was spent on it?

 

Huh. You guys argue that 7800 games should only be compared with NES games running on stock hardware. I do just that with Mario Bros., and then you say 7800 Mario Bros. shouldn't be compared because it's not programmed the best it can be (or at least, that's what it sounds like)?

 

 

Fair point, but I was only thowing it out there because the "lack of resources" argument seems to be the case in so many of Atari's efforts on the 7800, where most of the NES games were done very well and got the most out of the system (although there were some bad-programmed stinkers- just see AVGN ).

 

 

 

Edit: looks like I need to learn how to use the quote-in-a-quote function.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Tubular Gearhead