Actionuats price tag ?

[rob fulop]

I appreciate the work that goes into programming new games for the 2600, probably more than most. I've worked with quite a few homebrewers now. I also know that they make games because they enjoy it. Not because there's any chance they'll ever get compensated for their efforts. They probably make pennies on the hour for all their hard work, if they make anything at all.

 

It'd be great if they could earn a real salary for their efforts, but they don't.

 

How much you think your time is worth is a question only you can answer. How much I think your game is worth is $35. That's what boxed reproductions sell for in the store here at AtariAge. That seems reasonable, because it's in line with what a new game cost back-in-the-day.

 

Since it's a limited run, maybe $50. But I don't buy a game based on speculative future resale prices. I buy a game because I want to play it.

why not just play it in emulation ?

[rob fulop]

I appreciate the work that goes into programming new games for the 2600, probably more than most. I've worked with quite a few homebrewers now. I also know that they make games because they enjoy it. Not because there's any chance they'll ever get compensated for their efforts. They probably make pennies on the hour for all their hard work, if they make anything at all.

 

It'd be great if they could earn a real salary for their efforts, but they don't.

 

How much you think your time is worth is a question only you can answer. How much I think your game is worth is $35. That's what boxed reproductions sell for in the store here at AtariAge. That seems reasonable, because it's in line with what a new game cost back-in-the-day.

 

Since it's a limited run, maybe $50. But I don't buy a game based on speculative future resale prices. I buy a game because I want to play it.

why not just play it in emulation ? I have one signed cubicolor left? You want it for $200? Just curious.

[rob fulop]

I appreciate the work that goes into programming new games for the 2600, probably more than most. I've worked with quite a few homebrewers now. I also know that they make games because they enjoy it. Not because there's any chance they'll ever get compensated for their efforts. They probably make pennies on the hour for all their hard work, if they make anything at all.

 

It'd be great if they could earn a real salary for their efforts, but they don't.

 

How much you think your time is worth is a question only you can answer. How much I think your game is worth is $35. That's what boxed reproductions sell for in the store here at AtariAge. That seems reasonable, because it's in line with what a new game cost back-in-the-day.

 

Since it's a limited run, maybe $50. But I don't buy a game based on speculative future resale prices. I buy a game because I want to play it.

why not just play it in emulation ? I have one signed cubicolor left You want it for $200? Just curious.

[Dino]

I'm actually not 'unhappy' about 'getting short changed' by Cubicolor at all.

 

I brought it up to make the point that nobody knows what these things are worth.

 

Thus, the only way to figure out what they should sell for is by looking at how much it costs to make them available.

 

Personally, five months of my time is worth quite a bit more than $50K ... but I know that such is way out of the park here.

 

But I should earn SOMETHING for those five months, right? I mean, I have no income from 'another job' here .. unlike a lot of homebrew authors .. making games is what I do .. and what I've done for over 25 years.

 

To be told by people in this community that the think my time is worth $2k per month .. is sort of weird, actually.

 

I mean, in the same breath, the person who says this can't seriously tell me how much of a "fan" they are of my work, right?

 

Anyway, I'm very curious as to the results of the survey. I'm actually coming to realize already that the $2k crowd, is looking at this purely from their own somewhat selfish worldview .. they would have picked $1k if it were an available choice, and they don't wish to pick $0, since it's sort of absurd.

 

thanks for your thoughts. RF

 

Rob,

 

No one here denies that 5 months of your time is worth $50k+. These people are not selfish, but they look at the end product and what they are willing to pay for it. Atari 2600 programming is not commercially viable and has not been for some time. Unfortunately, those that are willing to pay $1k for a cart are very few. Most people that bought a cubicolor 20 years ago won't sell it and so if ever one goes on sale, the small handful of hardcore collectors taht didn't buy one 20 years ago fight over them. If you were to release more Cubicolors, the price would quickly decline to the $30 level. Just look at very rare games that are found in large batches, such as Motorodeo and Ikari. A couple of hundres of each of these titles were found and after the first handful sold for $$$, these now sell for $20-$30

[homerwannabee]

Here is my take again. If you want to sell them right away in a 2 day span sell it for $75. You will be able to sell these for about $150 a piece. It just may take a little longer. lets do the math before you get offended. 75X300= $22,500-$5,000 for costs and you have $17,500. You say that it took 5 months to make. $17,500/5= $3,500 a month. That is not that bad. I believe that $150 can be had. For that I would create a real simple website where you basically can order one up at the price of $150. It will probably take a few months for all of them to sell, but they will eventually sell. Now let's do the math on $150 a game. 150X300=$45,000-$5,000 for costs and you have $40,000. And again since you took 5 months on this than $40,000/5=$8,000. Now since you made $7,000 as your absolute highest amount, May I suggest something else that will sell your $150 games a little quicker. Spend an extra $5,000 or probably less to have all of them boxed with instructions. There are people who are willing to do that for cheaper than the price I suggested. So it becomes $40,000-$10,000=$30,000/5=$6,000 a month. Again I am pretty sure that over time you can sell this for $150 boxed with autograph. Just my two cents.

Edited April 1, 2008 by homerwannabee

[rob fulop]

RF,

No offense intended at all but I don't understand your curiousity with how much money can be made off of a VCS release in '08, AtariAge ain't exactly a Cash Cow and Manuel "Cybergoth" has made some of the finest games ever put on cart and I seriously doubt he has made enough Reichsmarks to get himself a good private dance and a set of those knee-breeches his people are so fond of. I would love a copy of Auctionauts as I love Demon Attack and Missile Command but I would never sell it.....I don't sell my games I play 'em

Hope I didn't piss u off.

WP

LOL, not so much how much $$ "can be made" .. but I do need to set the price, since the carts are pretty much ready to go now. As I said back in October, the fair price feels to be higher than a homebrew, and significantly less than a Cubicolor. I did want to hear from the community how much they value somebody like myself putting in the time and effort here. What I'm getting out of this conversation is "about the same as our society values an assistant manager at Jack In The Box" .. which puts it into perspective nicely.

 

I'm just trying to find the price point that will sell 250 copies reasonably briskly. Obviously some people will whine at whatever price point, so I don't really care about the low end .. I just wanted to get a sense of what people think an author's time here is worth.

[accousticguitar]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Adventure II. That was the most anticipated release ever of a homebrew game for an old Atari console. It sold for $40 plus shipping. Personally, I would pay $50 for Actionauts, but no more than that. It's a matter of economics. I have never paid more than $50 for a game, and I don't intend to start now. Unfortunately, I'm broke right now, so I won't be buying it for any price even if I did have paypal.

[+Psionic]

To be told by people in this community that the think my time is worth $2k per month .. is sort of weird, actually.

 

I mean, in the same breath, the person who says this can't seriously tell me how much of a "fan" they are of my work, right?

 

Anyway, I'm very curious as to the results of the survey. I'm actually coming to realize already that the $2k crowd, is looking at this purely from their own somewhat selfish worldview .. they would have picked $1k if it were an available choice, and they don't wish to pick $0, since it's sort of absurd.

I agree with you in principle, but I also understand the boundaries of the retrogaming marketplace today, and I just don't think your method is a realistic way of determining the price. Whether you spent five months or five years on the game doesn't matter much...it's ancient history. Unfortunately, all people are ultimately going to care about is how much they have to shell out. You're essentially asking people to name their own price (at a time when the economy isn't so hot)...what kind of result would you expect?

 

It's noble of you to ask the community for honest advice, but in the end you're going to have to make the decision.

 

well $50 is about my limit, certainly not $100. I am a game player not a collector, I guess there are 2 different markets.

If you are in it solely for the money then maybe this is the wrong market.

Well, does wishing to earn $4K/month occur to you as doing something solely for the money? Anyway, I probably can't charge $50 and look myself in the mirror afterwards, I'm sorry. The last game I sold for $50 currently sells for over $1000. It's just so.

Like I said, the current price of Cubicolor is due to the small number of cartridges that you chose to make, and the even smaller amount that are available to collectors today (I can't even remember when the last time I saw one for sale was). Had you made the game to meet demand, the price would be nowhere near what it is.

 

Besides, even though Actionauts wasn't released, weren't you still employed by Imagic at that time (and thus paid and compensated for the time spent on it)?

 

Just my thoughts on the matter...

I did Actionauts after leaving Imagic, as an independent author.

Fair enough.

Edited April 1, 2008 by PingvinBlueJeans

[rob fulop]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Adventure II. That was the most anticipated release ever of a homebrew game for an old Atari console. It sold for $40 plus shipping. Personally, I would pay $50 for Actionauts, but no more than that. It's a matter of economics. I have never paid more than $50 for a game, and I don't intend to start now. Unfortunately, I'm broke right now, so I won't be buying it for any price even if I did have paypal.

Curious, why pay a penny for a game when they are all available to play free in emulation?

[homerwannabee]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Adventure II. That was the most anticipated release ever of a homebrew game for an old Atari console. It sold for $40 plus shipping. Personally, I would pay $50 for Actionauts, but no more than that. It's a matter of economics. I have never paid more than $50 for a game, and I don't intend to start now. Unfortunately, I'm broke right now, so I won't be buying it for any price even if I did have paypal.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122520 If this guy can sell 300 reproduction games with no autograph by the original programmer at $35 a pop with shipping, then I don't see why Mr. Fulop could not get at least $75 a pop for his game. His is from an original old school programmer with an autograph attached. Don't let these people knock your price down. I am absolutely sure that you can sell these at $75 a pop at an extremely quick rate.

Edited April 1, 2008 by homerwannabee

[Mirage]

To be told by people in this community that the think my time is worth $2k per month .. is sort of weird, actually.

 

I mean, in the same breath, the person who says this can't seriously tell me how much of a "fan" they are of my work, right?

 

Anyway, I'm very curious as to the results of the survey. I'm actually coming to realize already that the $2k crowd, is looking at this purely from their own somewhat selfish worldview .. they would have picked $1k if it were an available choice, and they don't wish to pick $0, since it's sort of absurd.

 

thanks for your thoughts. RF

 

I don't see anyone who has said that your time is worth $2k per month. I, and a couple others have said the exact opposite. What your time is worth and what you're realistically going to get for it in this particular endeavor are not necessarily going to be in line.

 

I don't think my comments have been selfish. I haven't read any other comments here that seem selfish to me, either. I would not have picked $1k if it were an option. I chose based on what I can pay and still face my wife and still afford the other necessities of life. I also wouldn't be able to buy a Cubicolor for $1000 or anywhere near that.

 

If I could realistically give you $1000 for Actionauts, I would, just to be "fair" to you, but it's just not a reality for me. Is that selfish? I don't think so.

[Dino]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Adventure II. That was the most anticipated release ever of a homebrew game for an old Atari console. It sold for $40 plus shipping. Personally, I would pay $50 for Actionauts, but no more than that. It's a matter of economics. I have never paid more than $50 for a game, and I don't intend to start now. Unfortunately, I'm broke right now, so I won't be buying it for any price even if I did have paypal.

Curious, why pay a penny for a game when they are all available to play free in emulation?

 

nostalgia. These people want to play original games on the original hardware and they are willing to pay a price for that luxury. you have to ask yourself why someone would pay $1k for a 20 year old game which has nothing on the latest games released today that only sell for $80 ..

[Rick Weis]

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122520 If this guy can sell 300 reproduction games

 

 

300???

 

Rick

[holygrailvideogames.com]

Rob,

 

You have made some of my favorite 2600 titles. Demon Attack, Night Driver and Missile Command rank as some of my all time favorites.

 

It would be nice if the demand for the 2600 titles still were at the levels of 78-83 but obviously that isn't the case anymore.

 

Cubicolor was a unique game sold that you only sold 50 copies of. Over the years some of these titles basically have become "lost" as some of the original owners are no longer in the hobby and have no clue that they could sell their copy for several hundred dollars. As a result the supply is very low and the demand is high. The 2600 market does not have a lot of people who would pay $700-$1000 for a game. Actionuats is being released with 300 copies. This is a much larger supply than Cubicolor so I do not anticipate this being a $1000 game 10-20 years from now.

 

AtariAge has released a number of quality homebrew titles over the years. While these programmers might not have the resume that you have many of these recent homebrews have been superior to many of the titles released in the day. AtariAge and Atari2600.com both have released titles over the years at a lower price than you would like to charge. I think that the marketplace has become used to a loose title being sold for $20-$30 and a boxed title being sold for $40-$50.

 

A known programmer such as yourself should be able get a higher price for your work but I don't think that you are going to get as much as you would like. I think that if you want to sell all 300 copies your price point is going to have to come in at $50-$70. I personally think that about the highest that you will get for a boxed game would be $65 if you want to sell all 300 copies. Most people are not going to pay more than that.

 

I would recommend making a unique version of the game. Change things around a little and sell a one of a kind game on eBay. The one game alone might sell for $500+ depending on who is bidding. If the games are numbered I think that you could sell the #1 copy for a premium especially if you include a COA with your signature and maybe a picture of yourself with the game.

 

We appreciate your work. It would be nice if you could sell all of your copies for top dollar so that you could profit greatly from this. I just don't think that the marketplace will support the price that I suspect that you would like to get.

Edited April 1, 2008 by holygrailvideogames.com

[rob fulop]

pricing is a true 'art' ... i'm just doing market research here is all. Obviously many people would like to do whatever they can to keep the price as low as possible, so I'm not taking a lot of the lowball comments seriously. I'm hardly taking any offense here .. it's a fun conversation to have, that's all .. and I'm learning a few things. Basically the $50 price point for a homebrew was set by me 25 years ago when i sold Cubicolor for $50 .. I do believe it was the first cart sold exclusively into the collectors marketplace and I picked that number out of the air. 25 years later, such is still the 'going rate" .. and i think that is hardly a coincidence. Let's face it .. we are talking about a hobby where one can play ALL the available offerings for FREE in emulation form, and where the BEST of the medium's offerings (the best games) sell for less that $1 .. which is what I paid for a loose Space Invaders last year.

 

So the $50 price point occurs to me as totally MEANINGLESS and totally arbitrary in terms of 'value received'. It's just what people "expect" to pay for a homebrew. But Actionauts is NOT a homebrew, it's NOT a hacked game .. it's a unique thing in this market .. and thus it will be priced accordingly. I just don't know what that price is yet, which is why i posted here .. to have this exact conversation .. which is really helpful to me. There is probably no way I'll take any offense to anything people say ... i do think it funny that a person can emphatically say that $40 is their 'ceiling' one moment .. and then send me a PM asking if I will accept $200 for my remaining signed Cubicolor !!! So I don't take a whole lot personally here.

[rob fulop]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Adventure II. That was the most anticipated release ever of a homebrew game for an old Atari console. It sold for $40 plus shipping. Personally, I would pay $50 for Actionauts, but no more than that. It's a matter of economics. I have never paid more than $50 for a game, and I don't intend to start now. Unfortunately, I'm broke right now, so I won't be buying it for any price even if I did have paypal.

Curious, why pay a penny for a game when they are all available to play free in emulation?

 

nostalgia. These people want to play original games on the original hardware and they are willing to pay a price for that luxury. you have to ask yourself why someone would pay $1k for a 20 year old game which has nothing on the latest games released today that only sell for $80 ..

Yes, I must admit to have scratched my head about that one, yeah!

[Dino]

So the $50 price point occurs to me as totally MEANINGLESS and totally arbitrary in terms of 'value received'. It's just what people "expect" to pay for a homebrew.

 

Spot on Rob. People expect to pay that. If you charge more, there will be some people that will refuse to buy it and those that will accept the higher price. It will be hard to sell 300 for more than $100 each and this price STILL doesn't do you justice for the time and effort you have employed to make this game a reality. If you price it at $50, you will sell them all quickly. At $75, you may have some on your hands for a while and at $100, it will take a long time to sell 300. It all comes down to the time value of money. Is $50 worth more to you today than $100 in a few years time?

[rob fulop]

It would be nice if you could sell all of your copies for top dollar so that you could profit greatly from this. I just don't think that the marketplace will support the price that I suspect that you would like to get.

"Profit greatly"??? At $100 per copy, my wage from making this thing available to this community comes out far FAR less then 50% of my living wage. Profit greatly? C'mon! I just want to make this something that I can remotely justify, ok? What I think is happening here is that homebrew authors make 2600 purely for the fun of it .. thus the market has an expectation that all authors should do the same. And that's just not the reality. Making games like this is my job, always has been .. always will. I certainly understand that this market is small, and unable to compensate people like myself for the effort involved. Thus there are very few new releases. This makes sense. But it's really weird to me that you use the term 'profit greatly' when talking about somebody asking $4k a month for their time. How much do you charge for yours?

[Mirage]

Obviously many people would like to do whatever they can to keep the price as low as possible, so I'm not taking a lot of the lowball comments seriously.

 

For the record, if you're including my comments in that... I, for one, am not trying to do anything to keep the price "low", and I don't feel that I'm "lowballing" anything. You asked a question, I'm telling you what I *can* pay, and others are doing the same. Not what I think I would *like* to pay you if money was no object. There may be a few ballers on here who can pay big bucks for games, but most of us are not rich. I'm sure not. We're planning a first house and a child in the very near future, adding to our responsibilities and taking away from discretionary income.

 

I know you'd like to get a ton of $ for your work. Maybe some would pay you what you'd like. Most cannot. That's reality. I have a feeling I've been priced right out of ever owning an Actionauts cart, and I'm fine with that. It's whatever you want to charge... charge it. Those who cannot pay the price can't have it, and that's life, no hard feelings.

 

Some of us aren't cheap, we're just not rich. It kinda feels like you're calling us cheap... the ones who cannot pay your ideal price. Sorry. Not cheap, just realistic.

[Mirage]

It would be nice if you could sell all of your copies for top dollar so that you could profit greatly from this. I just don't think that the marketplace will support the price that I suspect that you would like to get.

"Profit greatly"??? At $100 per copy, my wage from making this thing available to this community comes out far FAR less then 50% of my living wage. Profit greatly? C'mon! I just want to make this something that I can remotely justify, ok? What I think is happening here is that homebrew authors make 2600 purely for the fun of it .. thus the market has an expectation that all authors should do the same. And that's just not the reality. Making games like this is my job, always has been .. always will. I certainly understand that this market is small, and unable to compensate people like myself for the effort involved. Thus there are very few new releases. This makes sense. But it's really weird to me that you use the term 'profit greatly' when talking about somebody asking $4k a month for their time. How much do you charge for yours?

 

Charge whatever you want, Rob. Whoever can buy them will buy them, the rest will not, end of story.

 

I sure do appreciate your work, both past and present, despite the fact that you seem to think that I cannot sincerely appreciate your work because I cannot afford your asking price. But... I do appreciate it, so again, thank you, sincerely, if you'll accept the thanks.

[rob fulop]

Obviously many people would like to do whatever they can to keep the price as low as possible, so I'm not taking a lot of the lowball comments seriously.

 

For the record, if you're including my comments in that... I, for one, am not trying to do anything to keep the price "low", and I don't feel that I'm "lowballing" anything. You asked a question, I'm telling you what I *can* pay, and others are doing the same. Not what I think I would *like* to pay you if money was no object. There may be a few ballers on here who can pay big bucks for games, but most of us are not rich. I'm sure not. We're planning a first house and a child in the very near future, adding to our responsibilities and taking away from discretionary income.

 

I know you'd like to get a ton of $ for your work. Maybe some would pay you what you'd like. Most cannot. That's reality. I have a feeling I've been priced right out of ever owning an Actionauts cart, and I'm fine with that. It's whatever you want to charge... charge it. Those who cannot pay the price can't have it, and that's life, no hard feelings.

 

Some of us aren't cheap, we're just not rich. It kinda feels like you're calling us cheap... the ones who cannot pay your ideal price. Sorry. Not cheap, just realistic.

Yeah, I don't consider $4k month as a "ton of money for my time". Sorry. I just don't. Do you consider such a ton of money for yours?

[rsiddall]

... i do think it funny that a person can emphatically say that $40 is their 'ceiling' one moment .. and then send me a PM asking if I will accept $200 for my remaining signed Cubicolor !!! So I don't take a whole lot personally here.

 

I believe I mentioned a $40 price-point (as an example of what I'd be willing to pay for a current-gen release), but t'was not me who pm'd Rob about his Cubicolor.

[s0c7]

I appreciate the work that goes into programming new games for the 2600, probably more than most. I've worked with quite a few homebrewers now. I also know that they make games because they enjoy it. Not because there's any chance they'll ever get compensated for their efforts. They probably make pennies on the hour for all their hard work, if they make anything at all.

 

It'd be great if they could earn a real salary for their efforts, but they don't.

 

How much you think your time is worth is a question only you can answer. How much I think your game is worth is $35. That's what boxed reproductions sell for in the store here at AtariAge. That seems reasonable, because it's in line with what a new game cost back-in-the-day.

 

Since it's a limited run, maybe $50. But I don't buy a game based on speculative future resale prices. I buy a game because I want to play it.

why not just play it in emulation ?

It sounds like you're saying people should buy it for speculation purposes and not to actually play?

 

No offense intended, just curious.

[+Psionic]

It would be nice if you could sell all of your copies for top dollar so that you could profit greatly from this. I just don't think that the marketplace will support the price that I suspect that you would like to get.

"Profit greatly"??? At $100 per copy, my wage from making this thing available to this community comes out far FAR less then 50% of my living wage. Profit greatly? ...it's really weird to me that you use the term 'profit greatly' when talking about somebody asking $4k a month for their time. How much do you charge for yours?

I think you're taking his choice of words the wrong way. He's not criticizing you so much as generally lamenting...he's simply saying that he'd like to see you profit greatly and make as much money as possible, as we all would.

[Sayton]

Unique as it is, you also have to look at other facts...such as the ECONOMY SUCKS!

 

While I love Atari 2600 and I'm a gamer AND collector, I also know where my priorities lie. Granted I'm not saying you shouldn't make money off of this, but, and I say this to NOT piss you off, but no one forced you or told you to re-release this game.

 

As it was, if I remember correctly, you were going to release it "as is" but then in a later email you decided to re-work the game, thus I guess you can say "making it complete".

 

Now, seeing as how you decided to release this game AND decided to rework the game and make it complete, you have to look at the fact that yes you did all that work and yes money was spent, but again, it was of your own choosing, correct?

 

$50 is about as high as I truly want to go. Again, I SERIOUSLY want this game, but with the economy the way it is and I'm the ONLY person working providing for a family of four, if you decide to start looking at the $100 or possibly even $75, I'm going to have some serious thinking to do, because again, while this may be unique as it is, it is NOWHERE near as important as my family.

 

I know you're not saying that whatsoever, but like I said:

 

1) You decided to release it AND put in the extra work

2) You have to consider that because YOU chose to do so, you can't just want to make back your money and charge the rest of us $75 or more because you feel you deserve the earn your money back.

 

I don't know your situations and all, and I'm guessing this is how you make money. But also look at this...this is 2008, 31 years from 1977. The people who are out here buying these "unique" or "homebrew" games do so for the LOVE of it and I'm quite sure that's why homebrew programmers make all these awesome games...for the love.

 

For the last time, I am NOT trying to sound mad or angry or trying to piss you off, but if you ask for opinions you can't expect them all to be positive. And again, seeing as how you chose to release it AND put in the extra effort, I really don't see why WE as the buyers should have to pay more because you feel that you deserve to earn back your money for something you CHOSE to do. With the way it sounded at first, my thoughts were you were doing this for the LOVE of Atari...but now it seems like your more concerned about making back your money on a game for a system that's over 30 years old. The 2600 scene isn't one of making money and profits on, at least not in 2008. Now if this was about 20 years ago, yeah, but this is 31 years later and you really shouldn't expect to earn back all these thousands of dollars.

 

In closing I'd also like to say as far as PayPal, I will have to get a friend to use his PayPal account. I'd REALLY feel more safe and secure buying it through AtariAge...you see years ago I had a room mate whose PayPal account got hacked and his ENTIRE BANK ACCOUNT WAS WIPED! So, yeah, it's your decision, but again my thoughts.

 

Please don't take this personally or get offended. I'm sick right now as well, so I might sound more like a jerk than usual.