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Actionuats price tag ?


rob fulop

Actionauts pricing  

75 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the author of a new 2600 release be paid for their time spent?

    • Yes
      59
    • No
      17
  2. 2. What is a reasonable monthly salary for a 2600 designer to earn?

    • $2K per month
      29
    • $3K per month
      7
    • $4K per month
      8
    • $5K per month
      4
    • $6k per month
      2
    • $7k per month
      7
    • 0 - they should not be paid for their time
      19

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Here's a pricing methodology based on Cubicolor...

 

From what I've read, 50 copies of Cubicolor were sold at $100 each around 1992. Therefore, the revenue generated from Cubicolor would have been $5,000. Inflation (based on the consumer price index) from 1992 through 1997 (16 years) was 2.7% per year. $5,000 in 1992 would be worth $7,709 today. Assuming Rob set a price he was pleased with back then, any of the following might be reasonable...

 

1. The new price is $77.09 (the 1992 price inflated to today's price based on the CPI). This might be more of a market approach.

 

2. The new price is $50.70. This seems to be more inline with Rob's approach since I'm calculating how much he would need to charge in order to generate $7,709 of revenue (which is $25.70 per cart since he's selling 300 of them) and adding $25 per cart as an assumed price that he had to pay to Albert to make the carts, box, and docs for him. For the record, I don't know what the actual cost was.

 

Based on a price Rob thought was reasonable in the past, it looks like he should charge $50 - $75. :P

 

Disclaimer: Although I believe my numbers to be accurate, I'm not actually suggesting a price point for the game. I believe that's up to Mr. Fulop since he has already taken the risk (of his time and investment expense). I'm just having some fun exploring the multiple ways we could look at what the cost could be.

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Here my 2 cents worth,you said that the last game you made you sold for $50 and now they sell for $1000,well a lot of other games have that sort of increase also like Magicard Video Life,a boxed Ultravision game,just to name a few,but try asking $1000 when they were 1st released and you wouldnt sell any.Thats why anything under $100 is reasonable,imo about $75 for a boxed signed copy is reasonable.

Edited by pangasinan
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Very few classic game items have sold for $100 or more (we're not including auctions here for the reasons posted earlier in this thread).

 

The most expensive classic game items I know of are Battlesphere for the Jaguar (which was like $100-150) and the Cuttle Cart 2 for the 7800 which is, I think, $200.

 

No 2600 game is in the same class as those.

 

Also, the era of rabid interest for prototypes is kind of waning. Prototypes were wildly popular because 2600 fans were starving for something new. For a while, selling reproduction prototypes at the CG Expo became kind of a cottage industry. Sean or whoever would pay thousands in extortion fees to free up the game, then make back the overhead in selling repros (as well as promote the shows themselves). Then there would be the speculators making bank on Ebay afterwards.

 

But there has been a transition in the last, oh, 5 years or so. Homebrewers were already good 10 years ago, but they started to get better, and better, and BETTER. They started making 16K and 32K games. They started using cool stuff like the AtariVox. And the titles started coming out with more regularity, culminating in the holiday specials each year. And we've got bBasic as well, which provides an almost daily dose of new VCS programs to check out, albeit simplistic. So what we have now is this fully self-sustaining 2600 subculture.

 

So 2600 fans are just not as desperate for new game experiences because there is always going to be a new kick-ass homebrew in the pipeline.

 

On that level, the 2600 has become a living platform again--maybe not economically speaking, but as far as game releases go, it is.

 

I think we're at a point where any new title, whether authored by an atari veteran or a modern homebrewer kind of has to sell itself primarily on its intrinsic quality, not so much on name recognition or rarity.

 

So I would agree that $50-75 is about right. $50 would be the limit for a loose cart, and $75 for a boxed version.

 

I hope Rob feels that would be worth it and that he doesn't regret doing this project. I always loved the idea of seeing veterans like him revisit the platform at least once for old time's sake. I know Tod Frye said in passing in Stella at 20 that he would do 2600 work again. God knows what context he might have thought that would be possible. Unfortunately Curt didn't ring him up to do the new titles on Flashback 2 :(

Edited by mos6507
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Oh, and as for emulation...again this is AtariAge...I know some people prefer emulation, but there's just something about popping in a cart into your VCS/7800 and playing it on the TV 31 years later. I've emulated a few times to test games to see how they were...just not the same for me. Yeah, it's free, but personally I'd much rather have a cart. Again, I'm a gamer and collector so that's me.

This is true for me too!

 

As for the price thing, I'll have to chime in with $50 for loose, and $100 for boxed with instructions. I could pay a little more, but I know not everyone can. So, if you look at this with simple supply/demand curves then the price should fall out. If you charge too much then you may not sell very many and therefore not make very much. If you charge too little then of course you'll sell out quickly but not get very much either. The optimum is somewhere between these points.

 

I'm assuming this thread is your "market research" as to what people are willing to pay. After reading every post in this thread it looks like this optimum is going to be in the $75-$100 range for a boxed version with instructions. Like I said some could, and would, pay more but you are then running the risk of selling only a few.

 

It will be interesting to see the price you pick, and how many of the 250 (or 300?) sell in a given timeframe.

 

Also, thanks for Demon Attack! I like the original with an ending personally. (Although some fancy screen with final score would be cool) I don't see a point playing a game endlessly when the difficulty stops ramping. I went up to about 450k once and finally turned it off. Ouch my thumb hurt! :D

 

Anyway, looking forward to Auctionauts.

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Here's what I think should be done. I'd chat with Albert to see how he makes carts and boxes at a somewhat cheaper price and use that info/teamup with Albert to sell these carts at $35 a piece. They'd fly out the door, and it would get them into the hands of people who want to play them, not put them on a shelf to sell in five years.

I don't know where you've been, but the carts, boxes and manuals are already made...and from what I understand, Rob got the best rate that was reasonable, so there's no further negotiations with Albert to be had in that area, and it doesn't really matter either way.

 

I do think some people are being a bit silly here. Sorry, but I don't think selling these for $35 is an option for a variety of reasons. Rob made clear that this was going to cost more than a normal release right from the beginning, so I really don't understand where all the complaints are coming from. Rob also made clear that this is unreleased, unfinished game with somewhat limited play value - in other words, it's a collector's release - so to that end, I'm not inclined to take a lot of the people seriously who are whining that they just want to play the game. The ROM will be released for those who just want to play the game...and this probably isn't a game that people are going to play very much anyway. And no offense, but we've heard this all before from certain people here who say they'll "never sell" their copy of something and then flip it on eBay a year or two later. For $35, Rob may as well just give the damn thing away...at that price, he'd be encouraging flipping.

 

On the other hand...

 

As silly as a $35 price tag is, the $100 price that Rob seems to want is kind of crazy, but more than that, it's just plain unrealistic...especially for an unfinished game that "lacks the polish of a finished release" (in Rob's own words). No matter what Rob thinks he's owed for his efforts, that has to be reconciled with the realities of what people think the game is worth and what they're actually willing to pay. I think the logical step here is to determine a comfortable medium between what most people are claiming they'd spend ($50) and what Rob seems to want to charge ($100) and shoot for a price in the $75 range...which is about what I had planned on spending for this game when I signed up for the reserve list (for whatever that's worth). In the end, Rob has to make the decision.

 

The decision is pretty easy to make at this point, actually. I'm ignoring the low price vote, assuming such are people who either are voting for their own self interests, or who would never buy the game anyway because it is certainly not a $50 "play value" compared to what you can get for few dollars if you purchase Pitfall, or something equally high quality. These guys basically are saying I should earn less doing this then i would earn as assistant manager at Jack in the Box .. my view .. these guys aren't going to be interested at any price .. and even then .. they will weep that the game isn't as good as Pitfall. So the low votes don't count especially given the discussion surrounding their justifications. I'm also ignoring the high votes, since I'm assuming those people are voting with their heart here. Which leaves all the votes in between .. which I believe represent the real market for this thing. I'll probably just cost average those votes and come up with the price ... it's looking like $75 to $100 feels about right.

Edited by rob fulop
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2) I do know what the COST is for Actionauts to exist. The game took about 3.5 months of my time to make in the first place. Then it took about 1.5 month of time to make it available

Rob,

 

Please don't take this as an insult; I don't mean any disrespect and admire your talents and have enjoyed playing your previously released works.

 

But just to be fair here, were those ~ 5 months figured at actual days and hours of work as one might be employed for a "real" job? How much of the program were you already paid to create while actually employed as a programmer, and how much was done more recently on your own? Was the recent work in lieu of other employment, or something done in "spare time"? Did you finish the program expecting sales of it to equate to gainful employment, or was it done more as a hobby?

I made the game as a free lance programmer .. without any income whatsoever while I was making it.

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I am completely opposed to the idea, that programming games for the Atari is done for money. I think many of us can remember some of those people coming over here, with nothing but $$$ in their eyes.

 

Either you are a programmer, player, collector or any combination of it. But still this is a hobby. When it is treated like a business, this is no hobby anymore.

 

Collectors are here to complete their collection, not to make a business investment. Players are here to have fun and compete with other players, not to play for big prizes. And, last not least, the homebrew programmers share their ideas and codes freely, which helps other programmers to make better games.

 

We all together form a pretty unique community. And I am very afraid, once big money and greed gets introduced into this community, the fun is spoiled soon.

 

So, while I can understand that Rob's game is something special from a collectors point of view, it still remains "just" another game. Compared with modern homebrews it will be of about average quality (if I got Rob right here). So nothing very special for players or programmers, but a nice piece of Atari 2600 history.

 

IMO a price tag around $50 seems appropriate. Anything far above would look too much like business and trying to milk the collectors to me.

 

But then, I am no collector, just a programmer. :)

 

BTW: I have a pretty good idea how to get maximum profit from the carts, but I am not selling it. ;)

Edited by Thomas Jentzsch
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BTW: I have a pretty good idea how to get maximum profit from the carts, but I am not selling it. ;)

Let me guess.

 

Sell these boxed copies ($50-75), then let Al take care of an unlimited run of loose carts on the store ($25-$35).

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I think this game is unique, and that alone would make it more valuable than the average homebrew. I'm not balking at a price of $75-$100. But at this price, I honestly doubt you will sell 300 carts. The 2600 market is small enough, and the market for $75-$100 games is even smaller. If you want to maximize profit, and (as I'm hoping, for your sake) you didn't actually make 300 carts already, I'd suggest a smaller run, like 150.

 

If you already made 300 carts, I think you'll need to lower the price to sell them all in a reasonable amount of time (measured in years.)

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It depends on what the market can bear, and the market isn't that huge. I'd not pay more than $30 for a cart/manual combo, or $50 for a boxed game unless it was truly exceptional and/or warranted it (hello Boulderdash). Personally I would vote for $50 as the price to sell the boxed version of Actionauts. I believe you should be able to sell all 200, or 250 copies of the game that are being made.

 

So you wouldn't pay me $150 for a signed Cubicolor, then?

 

Bringing this back up just to answer... this is what you get for being on an American board when you live in Europe (sleep, oh sleep called me)...

 

Cubicolor is a whole different ball game. Despite selling most of the ultra rare 2600 originals I had (Eli's Ladder, Music Machine, Malagai etc) I've kept the Atari Club releases and the Coke Wins, and Cubicolor is one, maybe the only, "original" still left I'd like to acquire. But as pointed out, the secondary market has pushed the price up a great deal since its original release. If I had known about it back then (and I was on the net at the time) then I certainly would have purchased a copy despite it being priced at $100. It was something different, unusual and unreleased.

 

Today perhaps we have been spoiled. Homebrews are commonplace, and even releases of games that never made it out originally occur fairly often. The market is more saturated and in my eyes any potential price point is reduced. There are still copies available of a number of the CGE releases (Rush Hour springs to mind) and they were priced complete at no more than $50 each. The consideration should primarily be what price point the potential customers are willing to accept more than how much money is deserved for putting it out there. As ROM Hunter has just stated, I think the two are possibly divergant.

 

That isn't to say I can't make exceptions. At more than $50 I would certainly still consider purchasing, after all I did state there are reasons for exceptionality. This is certainly one such case. As for Cubicolor, if there is one going I would also consider it, and for a good price... though March was expensive for me and April is already looking the same way :roll: :D

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Let me guess.

 

Sell these boxed copies ($50-75), then let Al take care of an unlimited run of loose carts on the store ($25-$35).

Wrong.

 

Auctioning a single copy per year on eBay? Actionauts 2008, Actionauts 2009, ... :lol:

Closer. :)

 

Hint: Ever watched tele shopping?

Edited by Thomas Jentzsch
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It's quite simple:

$100 is too high for most of the community.

 

I disagree. If you want something bad enough, you pay for it. As i recall, the krokodile cartridge was $100 and it sold very well, and not only

limited in numbers but worth every penny i was on a waiting list for a year or two on that one, and i would have paid $200 for it.

And now we are talking about a chance to own a copy of a lost game, and this is likely the last batch to be made? id gladly pay $100 for one, maybe even as high as $250 for a cib copy, but i would have to consider it.

 

Curious, why pay a penny for a game when they are all available to play free in emulation?

 

Thats a good question rob. I could easily download the actionauts rom into my krokodile cartridge and play on original hardware.(WHICH I HAVE NOT DONE)

 

 

 

I WANT to contribute to the author (you) and am just grateful for the chance to purchase it, as it was sort of idolized after it became apparent that it existed and was unreachable until you decided to release it and make carts.

 

 

As i said, if it werent for you, it woudnt even exist at all.

 

I understand where you are coming from, you have seen what happened with cubicolour, but there is no stopping that kind of inflation from happening, unless the cart is mass produced, like demon attack.

 

we know actionauts is going to become quite rare even before it was distributed, unlike quadrun.

 

you have to consider the current state of the 2600 market. Limited number of Consumers, preety much this forum. and even if buyers resold actionauts it would be to other collectors, not to the mainstream public, and i believe most of us will be hanging onto our cart purchased from you.

 

im only a casual collector,like most of the people on the forum.

by casual i mean i dont spend every dollar i get on 2600 games, perhaps like some people did in the 80's when the 2600 was mainstream.

 

So in conclusion,

 

Yes you deserve to be compensated more, but

given the market and the amount i think you are expecting, it is unrealistic.

 

Maybe if circumstances were different and you were able to complete the game back then you would have made some return.

 

Just my Two cents.

Edited by rheffera
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Curious, why pay a penny for a game when they are all available to play free in emulation?

All my ROMS are freely available in emulation. Still a lot of people buy the games.

 

The reasons vary. Some want to support the homebrewer, maybe hoping for more games from him. Some simply want to say thank you for the game. Some want something physical in their hands. Some want to play it on "real" hardware. Some want to collect the game.

 

And for many it is all of them.

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I'm one of the original people who bought Cubicolor (#7) from Video-Takeout for $50 or $60. I still own the cart and have no plans on selling it. I didn't purchase it for speculation reasons for 1) I never resell any games, and 2) because at the time there simply wasn't a secondary market for games. I bought it solely because I've been collecting 2600 carts since 1979.

 

One (or two) of the reasons the price of Cubicolor has risen so dramatically was because of its scarcity and Ebay & the Internet. As we got more connected, collectiors who weren't around in 1986, learned of the rare games and wanted it, inflating the price.

 

In the case of this game, the run is much hgher, and I'm sure all of the serious collectors have signed on for one. That's not to say that future collectors wouldn't be interested in it. But there will be so many out there, that I'm sure they'll be available for many years to come at a reasonable price.

 

As for respectable monetary compensation for creating the game? Well I have to agree with Thomas Jentzsch on that one. The days of programming 2600 games for profit are over. And it's sad to think that people, regardless of their stature, should expect otherwise. There are many many talented programmers out there producing 2600 homebrews without any expectation of riches, even though they could probably earn a lot more if they weren't spending their time coding a game.

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Here is my advice Mr. Folup. The more you argue about how you should be paid a certain amount for the game, the more people will go against you. I would of talked privately with some of the homebrewers and the higher ups in this hobby. But bringing this out in the open like this does not help the cause. For me personally you deserve every penny and more. You're Rob "Freaking" Folup, and the fact that you are even communicating on this forum is a great honor to me. You are one of the all time legends in the video game industry. And contrary to Rolenta's opinion you are not like any other programmer. You are one of the programming legends in the industry. There is one thing you do need to know about this hobby Mr. Folup. This is not your average hobby. People in this hobby buy purely out of Nostalgia. Speculation in many people minds here is a curse word extreme. Something that will get you flamed to the high heavens if you even mention the word. People don't buy Cubicolor for an obscene amount of money looking to cash in at some future date. They do it because of nostalgia and because it is older and the perceived scarcity of the item. This is an underground hobby. I can not stress this enough. This is an underground hobby. Most people here want it to stay as an underground hobby. Main reason being that they believe that there is a certain purity that this hobby has that would get destroyed if the big spenders and big merchants ever came in. And quite frankly they do have a point. Go to any mainstream hobby like Comics, Baseball cards, or coins. And you will see something entirely different. You will see a face of a person that is not in the hobby because of a love of the hobby. But a person who is in the hobby to make a quick profit. Instead of discussing how great a certain card or comic was, most of the time they talk about market reports and how certain items have achieved a certain appreciation in regards to money in the past year. The talk is centered around the money and not the collectible. Go around the AtarAge website, the talk is more about the collectible and not about the money. If someone here were to show a chart showing how much certain video games have gone up in the past year or two, that person would flamed all over. So although you are a legend in this industry. Even though most people understand what you are saying. You are making an argument about money. And any time someone talks about money in this hobby they will have a negative reaction coming their way, legend or not.

Edited by homerwannabee
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Here is my advice Mr. Folup. The more you argue about how you should be paid a certain amount for the game, the more people will go against you. I would of talked privately with some of the homebrewers and the higher ups in this hobby. But bringing this out in the open like this does not help the cause. For me personally you deserve every penny and more. You're Rob "Freaking" Folup, and the fact that you are even communicating on this forum is a great honor to me. You are one of the all time legends in the video game industry. And contrary to Rolenta's opinion you are not like any other programmer. You are one of the programming legends in the industry. There is one thing you do need to know about this hobby Mr. Folup.

When praising someone, it's nice to spell that person's name correctly.

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Here is my advice Mr. Folup. The more you argue about how you should be paid a certain amount for the game, the more people will go against you. I would of talked privately with some of the homebrewers and the higher ups in this hobby. But bringing this out in the open like this does not help the cause. For me personally you deserve every penny and more. You're Rob "Freaking" Folup, and the fact that you are even communicating on this forum is a great honor to me. You are one of the all time legends in the video game industry. And contrary to Rolenta's opinion you are not like any other programmer. You are one of the programming legends in the industry. There is one thing you do need to know about this hobby Mr. Folup.

When praising someone, it's nice to spell that person's name correctly.

:dunce:

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The decision is pretty easy to make at this point, actually ... I'll probably just cost average those votes and come up with the price ... it's looking like $75 to $100 feels about right.

Well, consider if Actionauts had been released in 1984...

 

$29.99 in 1984 is $61.10 in 2008.

 

$39.99 in 1984 is $81.48 in 2008.

 

I think your price range is going to have to be in there somewhere (which is again right along the $65-$75 I had figured on originally). Any more than that, and I think you're asking too much...that's just reality. You really can't expect to get more than a game would have sold for new back then.

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It's not 1979. No one is paying you a 'real' salary to program for the VCS with the idea the money will be recouped through millions of sales. Your game is not going to sell millions. Realistically you'll sell them all for between $50-$75 each so price it in that range. You can't expect a real salary for a niche hobby.

 

If that's not your worth your time, don't do it. It wouldn't break my heart not to play your game. There's tons of homebrews that are priced fairly for the community that many of us would be happy to support instead.

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This is actually a very compelling discussion. I believe Mr. Fulop's original unreleased game would be worth more if it were for a platform other than the Atari 2600, which has the most prolific homebrew developers for any classic platform. This means that there are actually a wide range of new AAA titles for us to choose from well below the $50 threshold with box and manual. I'm a collector and player, but not a seller, so what I buy is just for me. I would personally need many factors to fall into place to pay more than $50 for a new Atari 2600 title, no matter how original or fun. If, as another poster suggested, the price point were $75, signed, with box and manual, then I would actually give it serious consideration. Any more and I just can't justify it (I've paid more for things like multi-carts and what-not that can justify a higher price threshold to me). I think at a price higher than $50 - $75 (and only the latter if signed), you'll get mostly speculators who will turn around and sell their copies on eBay for double the price (or try to, and will probably get it over time).

 

Bottom line, if you really want to get the game into the hands of gamers who would actually enjoy, appreciate and play the game, thus providing some more intangible justification for your personal investment, the lower you can price it while still being able to "look at yourself in the mirror", then the better off everyone will be. Otherwise you're just better off going onto eBay and selling them to the highest bidder until you reach the point of diminishing returns. Surely for the first 50 or so signed and numbered copies you could potentially go well north of $100 each time. If your goal is money, then that's the way to do it, if your goal is to serve the community - the players - then pricing it lower and selling it in a more traditional manner is the way to go. Unfortunately, it seems like that's not your goal and I understand that. I've often done things at a loss just for the accomplishment and getting the work into as many people's hands as possible, but I certainly don't do that with everything. At the same time, I also separate my "for a living" stuff from my "fun" or for a "passion" stuff, having the former often making the latter possible. Good luck whatever your ultimate decision.

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