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Actionuats price tag ?


rob fulop

Actionauts pricing  

75 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the author of a new 2600 release be paid for their time spent?

    • Yes
      59
    • No
      17
  2. 2. What is a reasonable monthly salary for a 2600 designer to earn?

    • $2K per month
      29
    • $3K per month
      7
    • $4K per month
      8
    • $5K per month
      4
    • $6k per month
      2
    • $7k per month
      7
    • 0 - they should not be paid for their time
      19

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I think this discussion has yielded that information, as well as opened my eyes to the wildly unrealistic expectations of a community that for whatever reason do not think the laws of economics apply to them.

Well, that may be true to a certain degree. Symptom of the universe, I suppose...we are living in an age (ushered in by the internet) where basically all forms of entertainment (games, music, whatever) are free for the taking. So that's what people expect. It's hard to get anybody to pay decent money for just about anything, so the fact that people aren't jumping to throw money in your face should come as a surprise to no one.

 

On the other hand, I think that's really looking at things the wrong way. We can look at this situation from every philosophical angle we'd like, but it just comes down to the fact that this is more than people are used to spending, and obviously more than they'd like to.

 

The price is a bit high, but it's honestly not much more than I was expecting (given the nature of this release).

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It's not 1979. No one is paying you a 'real' salary to program for the VCS with the idea the money will be recouped through millions of sales. Your game is not going to sell millions. Realistically you'll sell them all for between $50-$75 each so price it in that range. You can't expect a real salary for a niche hobby.

 

If that's not your worth your time, don't do it. It wouldn't break my heart not to play your game. There's tons of homebrews that are priced fairly for the community that many of us would be happy to support instead.

I don't consider 4K/ month a real salary .. not even close. Do you?

 

Sure, it could be for somebody. I make more than that but you're missing my point anyway. Programming VCS games in 2008 is not a real job and will never be in the future. You can't expect to get paid for it at the same level as a job that's actually in demand by more than niche hobby market. I don't care whether it's fun for you or not it's realistically looking at your situation.

I"m not expecting the same compensation as a 'day job'. I'm expecting a fraction of such. 1/3 to be precise.

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I do have to say that your honesty is refreshing. There is an old Shakespeare quote that basically says that an honest man is 1 in 10,000. I think peoples reaction to honest intentions warts and all is a good example why an honest man is only 1 in 10,000.

Edited by homerwannabee
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It's not 1979. No one is paying you a 'real' salary to program for the VCS with the idea the money will be recouped through millions of sales. Your game is not going to sell millions. Realistically you'll sell them all for between $50-$75 each so price it in that range. You can't expect a real salary for a niche hobby.

 

If that's not your worth your time, don't do it. It wouldn't break my heart not to play your game. There's tons of homebrews that are priced fairly for the community that many of us would be happy to support instead.

I don't consider 4K/ month a real salary .. not even close. Do you?

 

 

Maybe because you live in Northern California $48,000 a year does not seem like a lot of money ?

 

I agree with whatever price you come up with, I'm going to buy the thing, but I think you're starting to alienate some of the people from the community.

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If you want to make 4 grand or whatever per month you have to get a job for that. This is more like a commission situation. Put the price tag you feel comfortable with and go with it. They will either sell or they wont. Start high and you can always come down if you have to later. After all you are selling something. If A car salesman sells his cars he makes money. If he doesn't sell cars he doesn't. No one pays him 4k a month if he doesn't. If I ask you to program something for me then maybe that warrants a salary per day or month or whatever.

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Hi Rob,

 

I think from a business point of view your method is flawed, by performing the work before doing market research (although you'll probably end up doing okay on this project, I think).

 

If you'd like to make money on a project, determine the costs such as paying yourself (for a certain period of time at a certain level), and production costs. At the same time, make your best determination on the quantity you will sell (and perhaps what timeframe), and at was price per unit. Do some math (Excel is your friend), and you'll determine if the project is economically viable. There's probably a lot of guessing that goes on, but that along with some research should get you reasonably close - you can always factor risk in, too, such as if the project takes longer than expected.

 

Also, if it was me, I'd probably ignore the hours I spent on the project years ago. Any money one expected to receive from work that long ago is likely long forgotten, and not missed.

 

Best wishes for your project!

Not a businessman, btw :)

5-11under

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This thread is too hilarious. Sad, too.

 

The best part is rob fulop lecturing us on basic economics. :roll:

 

What you want to be paid doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. Your PC/Xbox/PS3/Unix/whatever programming time may be worth $150K /yr because that's what people pay for it. Your 2600 programming time is similarly worth what people will pay for it. That's the laws of economics, not this crazy nonsense you've been spouting for 6 pages of this thread.

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It's not 1979. No one is paying you a 'real' salary to program for the VCS with the idea the money will be recouped through millions of sales. Your game is not going to sell millions. Realistically you'll sell them all for between $50-$75 each so price it in that range. You can't expect a real salary for a niche hobby.

 

If that's not your worth your time, don't do it. It wouldn't break my heart not to play your game. There's tons of homebrews that are priced fairly for the community that many of us would be happy to support instead.

I don't consider 4K/ month a real salary .. not even close. Do you?

 

 

Maybe because you live in Northern California $48,000 a year does not seem like a lot of money ?

 

The majority of people here in the UK don't earn $4k per month either (even with the distended exchange rate at the moment that works out to be about 2000 GBP before tax, or about 1400 GBP after tax)... and the cost of living here is higher than in general America. I don't know about California but I've been told it's fairly high by comparison. I would wager a lot of people would love to earn that sort of money per month...

 

(I'm one of those "lucky" ones who does earn about that level however)

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It's not 1979. No one is paying you a 'real' salary to program for the VCS with the idea the money will be recouped through millions of sales. Your game is not going to sell millions. Realistically you'll sell them all for between $50-$75 each so price it in that range. You can't expect a real salary for a niche hobby.

 

If that's not your worth your time, don't do it. It wouldn't break my heart not to play your game. There's tons of homebrews that are priced fairly for the community that many of us would be happy to support instead.

I don't consider 4K/ month a real salary .. not even close. Do you?

 

 

Maybe because you live in Northern California $48,000 a year does not seem like a lot of money ?

 

The majority of people here in the UK don't earn $4k per month either (even with the distended exchange rate at the moment that works out to be about 2000 GBP before tax, or about 1400 GBP after tax)... and the cost of living here is higher than in general America. I don't know about California but I've been told it's fairly high by comparison. I would wager a lot of people would love to earn that sort of money per month...

 

(I'm one of those "lucky" ones who does earn about that level however)

 

 

Mayhem: Precisely. California on a whole has a higher pay scale than most of the country. Heck, they even have a higher minimum wage than the Federal Government requires!

 

I was making a little more than that when I lived in California, and I was always broke because you can't afford a house, etc. Out in Tennessee, I make a bit more, and I feel like a live like a King because everything is cheaper here.

 

If Joe Programmer makes $72K in California, has to live in an apartment, or $45K in Kentucky, but owns a house, that's usually the discrepancy level I see for this.

 

And sorry for going off topic....I just want to buy Actionauts and pay my bucks already...

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The majority of people here in the UK don't earn $4k per month either (even with the distended exchange rate at the moment that works out to be about 2000 GBP before tax, or about 1400 GBP after tax)... and the cost of living here is higher than in general America. I don't know about California but I've been told it's fairly high by comparison. I would wager a lot of people would love to earn that sort of money per month...

 

(I'm one of those "lucky" ones who does earn about that level however)

 

Cost of living varies wildly in the US. I make a good deal more than $4K a month but for where I live, I'm solidly middle class. There's many places where if I had the same money coming in, I'd be called wealthy.

 

Of course if I lived in those places, I wouldn't get paid this much so it's all relative.

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People think nothing of begging me to sign their games, which I always agree to, and then the next week I see the same person selling their "signed" game on Ebay for a multiple of it's unsigned market value.

I can assure you, I don't like those people either.

 

Unlike you, I don't make "new games" for these people ...

Neither do I.

 

I am selling them my very last "old game" that I ever made. I thought long and hard about what would be required to do this, and why I am even bothering? For the very same people who bugged me forever to release this game, to then turn around and publicly weep about my wishing to earn a fraction of my income for putting in the time and effort to do so occurs to me, frankly, as brutal a slap in the face as you can imagine. It makes me sorry to have bothered.

I can understand what makes you upset. But not all people here are like the people you are describing. Actually most are not (fortunately).

 

The problem is, that you are playing "their" game now. So you have to deal with them. I never played by those rules and I went fine. Much better then you are doing now.

 

Do you HONESTLY think the money I will earn here compensates me for the time and effort involved? It's a token payment, at best. It's the smallest possible "thank you". And to have people begrudge the amount I've come to is just so insulting, it really is, okay? This whole discussion occurs to me as a perfect example of never a good deed going unpunished.

No, I don't think you need the money. That's what makes it so hard for me to understand why you invest so much time into the whole price finding thing. IMO it is really not worth it. And why the limitation? That only attracts greed.

 

Selling the game unlimited and for a rather low price would have saved you all the unneccesary trouble.

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It's not 1979. No one is paying you a 'real' salary to program for the VCS with the idea the money will be recouped through millions of sales. Your game is not going to sell millions. Realistically you'll sell them all for between $50-$75 each so price it in that range. You can't expect a real salary for a niche hobby.

 

If that's not your worth your time, don't do it. It wouldn't break my heart not to play your game. There's tons of homebrews that are priced fairly for the community that many of us would be happy to support instead.

I don't consider 4K/ month a real salary .. not even close. Do you?

 

 

Maybe because you live in Northern California $48,000 a year does not seem like a lot of money ?

 

The majority of people here in the UK don't earn $4k per month either (even with the distended exchange rate at the moment that works out to be about 2000 GBP before tax, or about 1400 GBP after tax)... and the cost of living here is higher than in general America. I don't know about California but I've been told it's fairly high by comparison. I would wager a lot of people would love to earn that sort of money per month...

 

(I'm one of those "lucky" ones who does earn about that level however)

Really? I was recently in London paying 4 British pounds for a latte ... which is like $10 US! If the majority of people in the UK don't make $4K US per month, how do they survive? Maybe London prices are not 'typical' .. I dunno.

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Really? I was recently in London paying 4 British pounds for a latte ... which is like $10 US! If the majority of people in the UK don't make $4K US per month, how do they survive? Maybe London prices are not 'typical' .. I dunno.

 

Good grief! Someone needs to start watching $40 a Day with Rachael Ray... ;)

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People think nothing of begging me to sign their games, which I always agree to, and then the next week I see the same person selling their "signed" game on Ebay for a multiple of it's unsigned market value.

I can assure you, I don't like those people either.

 

Unlike you, I don't make "new games" for these people ...

Neither do I.

 

I am selling them my very last "old game" that I ever made. I thought long and hard about what would be required to do this, and why I am even bothering? For the very same people who bugged me forever to release this game, to then turn around and publicly weep about my wishing to earn a fraction of my income for putting in the time and effort to do so occurs to me, frankly, as brutal a slap in the face as you can imagine. It makes me sorry to have bothered.

I can understand what makes you upset. But not all people here are like the people you are describing. Actually most are not (fortunately).

 

The problem is, that you are playing "their" game now. So you have to deal with them. I never played by those rules and I went fine. Much better then you are doing now.

 

Do you HONESTLY think the money I will earn here compensates me for the time and effort involved? It's a token payment, at best. It's the smallest possible "thank you". And to have people begrudge the amount I've come to is just so insulting, it really is, okay? This whole discussion occurs to me as a perfect example of never a good deed going unpunished.

No, I don't think you need the money. That's what makes it so hard for me to understand why you invest so much time into the whole price finding thing. IMO it is really not worth it. And why the limitation? That only attracts greed.

 

Selling the game unlimited and for a rather low price would have saved you all the unneccesary trouble.

Didn't invest "so much time". I posted the poll last night. Three hours later, the right price ($79.95) popped out of the poll/conversation ... such is the magic of the Internet .. real time market feedback. It became clear as glass obvious that there are two markets ... those who are into the 'vintage' value of their collections .. and those who just want to play 2600 games. Actionauts is obviously for the former, the collectors, and not for the pure 'players' who can play the game in emulation form, or purchase a cheap unboxed copy one day in the future when somebody puts such a thing out there. The bellyaching and snide comments I really don't take seriously, but I must say ... your hurtful remarks weren't appreciated.

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People think nothing of begging me to sign their games, which I always agree to, and then the next week I see the same person selling their "signed" game on Ebay for a multiple of it's unsigned market value.

I can assure you, I don't like those people either.

 

Unlike you, I don't make "new games" for these people ...

Neither do I.

 

I am selling them my very last "old game" that I ever made. I thought long and hard about what would be required to do this, and why I am even bothering? For the very same people who bugged me forever to release this game, to then turn around and publicly weep about my wishing to earn a fraction of my income for putting in the time and effort to do so occurs to me, frankly, as brutal a slap in the face as you can imagine. It makes me sorry to have bothered.

I can understand what makes you upset. But not all people here are like the people you are describing. Actually most are not (fortunately).

 

The problem is, that you are playing "their" game now. So you have to deal with them. I never played by those rules and I went fine. Much better then you are doing now.

 

Do you HONESTLY think the money I will earn here compensates me for the time and effort involved? It's a token payment, at best. It's the smallest possible "thank you". And to have people begrudge the amount I've come to is just so insulting, it really is, okay? This whole discussion occurs to me as a perfect example of never a good deed going unpunished.

No, I don't think you need the money. That's what makes it so hard for me to understand why you invest so much time into the whole price finding thing. IMO it is really not worth it. And why the limitation? That only attracts greed.

 

Selling the game unlimited and for a rather low price would have saved you all the unneccesary trouble.

Didn't invest "so much time". I posted the poll last night. Three hours later, the right price ($79.95) popped out of the poll/conversation ... such is the magic of the Internet .. real time market feedback. It became clear as glass obvious that there are two markets ... those who are into the 'vintage' value of their collections .. and those who just want to play 2600 games. Actionauts is obviously for the former, the collectors, and not for the pure 'players' who can play the game in emulation form, or purchase a cheap unboxed copy one day in the future when somebody puts such a thing out there. The bellyaching and snide comments I really don't take seriously, but I must say ... your hurtful remarks weren't appreciated.

 

I think that you are expecting way too much from us. We are in no way entitled to pay your salary, because you made a very stupid mistake.

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People think nothing of begging me to sign their games, which I always agree to, and then the next week I see the same person selling their "signed" game on Ebay for a multiple of it's unsigned market value.

I can assure you, I don't like those people either.

 

Unlike you, I don't make "new games" for these people ...

Neither do I.

 

I am selling them my very last "old game" that I ever made. I thought long and hard about what would be required to do this, and why I am even bothering? For the very same people who bugged me forever to release this game, to then turn around and publicly weep about my wishing to earn a fraction of my income for putting in the time and effort to do so occurs to me, frankly, as brutal a slap in the face as you can imagine. It makes me sorry to have bothered.

I can understand what makes you upset. But not all people here are like the people you are describing. Actually most are not (fortunately).

 

The problem is, that you are playing "their" game now. So you have to deal with them. I never played by those rules and I went fine. Much better then you are doing now.

 

Do you HONESTLY think the money I will earn here compensates me for the time and effort involved? It's a token payment, at best. It's the smallest possible "thank you". And to have people begrudge the amount I've come to is just so insulting, it really is, okay? This whole discussion occurs to me as a perfect example of never a good deed going unpunished.

No, I don't think you need the money. That's what makes it so hard for me to understand why you invest so much time into the whole price finding thing. IMO it is really not worth it. And why the limitation? That only attracts greed.

 

Selling the game unlimited and for a rather low price would have saved you all the unneccesary trouble.

Didn't invest "so much time". I posted the poll last night. Three hours later, the right price ($79.95) popped out of the poll/conversation ... such is the magic of the Internet .. real time market feedback. It became clear as glass obvious that there are two markets ... those who are into the 'vintage' value of their collections .. and those who just want to play 2600 games. Actionauts is obviously for the former, the collectors, and not for the pure 'players' who can play the game in emulation form, or purchase a cheap unboxed copy one day in the future when somebody puts such a thing out there. The bellyaching and snide comments I really don't take seriously, but I must say ... your hurtful remarks weren't appreciated.

 

I think that you are expecting way too much from us. We are in no way entitled to pay your salary, because you made a very stupid mistake.

I'm very confused???? What stupid mistake was that?

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People think nothing of begging me to sign their games, which I always agree to, and then the next week I see the same person selling their "signed" game on Ebay for a multiple of it's unsigned market value.

I can assure you, I don't like those people either.

 

Unlike you, I don't make "new games" for these people ...

Neither do I.

 

I am selling them my very last "old game" that I ever made. I thought long and hard about what would be required to do this, and why I am even bothering? For the very same people who bugged me forever to release this game, to then turn around and publicly weep about my wishing to earn a fraction of my income for putting in the time and effort to do so occurs to me, frankly, as brutal a slap in the face as you can imagine. It makes me sorry to have bothered.

I can understand what makes you upset. But not all people here are like the people you are describing. Actually most are not (fortunately).

 

The problem is, that you are playing "their" game now. So you have to deal with them. I never played by those rules and I went fine. Much better then you are doing now.

 

Do you HONESTLY think the money I will earn here compensates me for the time and effort involved? It's a token payment, at best. It's the smallest possible "thank you". And to have people begrudge the amount I've come to is just so insulting, it really is, okay? This whole discussion occurs to me as a perfect example of never a good deed going unpunished.

No, I don't think you need the money. That's what makes it so hard for me to understand why you invest so much time into the whole price finding thing. IMO it is really not worth it. And why the limitation? That only attracts greed.

 

Selling the game unlimited and for a rather low price would have saved you all the unneccesary trouble.

Didn't invest "so much time". I posted the poll last night. Three hours later, the right price ($79.95) popped out of the poll/conversation ... such is the magic of the Internet .. real time market feedback. It became clear as glass obvious that there are two markets ... those who are into the 'vintage' value of their collections .. and those who just want to play 2600 games. Actionauts is obviously for the former, the collectors, and not for the pure 'players' who can play the game in emulation form, or purchase a cheap unboxed copy one day in the future when somebody puts such a thing out there. The bellyaching and snide comments I really don't take seriously, but I must say ... your hurtful remarks weren't appreciated.

 

I think that you are expecting way too much from us. We are in no way entitled to pay your salary, because you made a very stupid mistake.

I'm very confused???? What stupid mistake was that?

 

not releasing the game 20 years ago, or getting employed

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People think nothing of begging me to sign their games, which I always agree to, and then the next week I see the same person selling their "signed" game on Ebay for a multiple of it's unsigned market value.

I can assure you, I don't like those people either.

 

Unlike you, I don't make "new games" for these people ...

Neither do I.

 

I am selling them my very last "old game" that I ever made. I thought long and hard about what would be required to do this, and why I am even bothering? For the very same people who bugged me forever to release this game, to then turn around and publicly weep about my wishing to earn a fraction of my income for putting in the time and effort to do so occurs to me, frankly, as brutal a slap in the face as you can imagine. It makes me sorry to have bothered.

I can understand what makes you upset. But not all people here are like the people you are describing. Actually most are not (fortunately).

 

The problem is, that you are playing "their" game now. So you have to deal with them. I never played by those rules and I went fine. Much better then you are doing now.

 

Do you HONESTLY think the money I will earn here compensates me for the time and effort involved? It's a token payment, at best. It's the smallest possible "thank you". And to have people begrudge the amount I've come to is just so insulting, it really is, okay? This whole discussion occurs to me as a perfect example of never a good deed going unpunished.

No, I don't think you need the money. That's what makes it so hard for me to understand why you invest so much time into the whole price finding thing. IMO it is really not worth it. And why the limitation? That only attracts greed.

 

Selling the game unlimited and for a rather low price would have saved you all the unneccesary trouble.

Didn't invest "so much time". I posted the poll last night. Three hours later, the right price ($79.95) popped out of the poll/conversation ... such is the magic of the Internet .. real time market feedback. It became clear as glass obvious that there are two markets ... those who are into the 'vintage' value of their collections .. and those who just want to play 2600 games. Actionauts is obviously for the former, the collectors, and not for the pure 'players' who can play the game in emulation form, or purchase a cheap unboxed copy one day in the future when somebody puts such a thing out there. The bellyaching and snide comments I really don't take seriously, but I must say ... your hurtful remarks weren't appreciated.

 

I think that you are expecting way too much from us. We are in no way entitled to pay your salary, because you made a very stupid mistake.

Dude, what is your problem? Him releasing this game to the public is not a "Very Stupid Mistake" at all. You are showing extreme disrespect. Even if this was not Rob Fulop you're comments have been out of line. This guy is a legend, and has made some of the greatest games on the Atari 2600. We don't have many original programmers working with the community as it is. And with this type of treatment I doubt many more will show up.

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Dude, what is your problem? Him releasing this game to the public is not a "Very Stupid Mistake" at all. You are showing extreme disrespect. Even if this was not Rob Fulop you're comments have been out of line. This guy is a legend, and has made some of the greatest games on the Atari 2600. We don't have many original programmers working with the community as it is. And with this type of treatment I doubt many more will show up.

 

I respect him very much, I love his games, especially Missle command. But I think that it is very unreasonable for him to expect us to pay him 4k a month for him to release this game. Im very sorry if I was misunderstood, I meant no harm.

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I think this discussion has yielded that information, as well as opened my eyes to the wildly unrealistic expectations of a community that for whatever reason do not think the laws of economics apply to them.

On the topic of economics, I think that $79.99 is a fair price, but I think that making 300 carts @$79.99 will saturate the market, and this will likely leave you with many unsold carts. Also, a more limited run (e.g. 150) will actually be more valuable per unit to collectors, since the market is less likely to be saturated and the future value of the cart may be higher. Basically, you will more easily sell 150 out of 150 carts than 150 out of 300. Also, collectors will pay $79.99, but most players will not.

 

If you go ahead with 300 anyway, I expect that in a month or two, sales will stall and you'll be left with a big stack of carts that cost you thousands to produce. With any other product, the price would then be reduced and nobody would care too much. But I think this game is a little different, and the community here would feel cheated if their $80 cart sold for $50 a few months later.

 

I'd recommend a limited run of 150, complete with box, at $79.99, then an unlimited run with a different label and no box for somewhat less. The collectors will buy right away. The players will wait for the unlimited run, but many collectors will also buy an unlimited edition to play while their limited version sits on a shelf, unopened. I believe this will maximize profit for you while also having a net positive effect on the community.

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