Use Your 8-Bit as a Keyboard to the Emulator?

[mos6507]

Here's another approach. Use 1200 style function keys, and put the rest of the PC keys on the top row. This shortens the keyboard to a decent size. Sheet metal could be used for the case, here it is in black. You can stain wood black, and it looks nice too, just use India ink. & coat it with clear acrylic. I think that chromed plastic automotive siding could make nice XL-ish keycaps for the top row.

 

That looks good but with the F keys at the top do you really need the extra keys between the keyboard and the keypad?? The regular keyboard already has arrow keys embedded in it. You could either find a way to use those or switch modes on the keypad. For instance, there are those four buttons above the keypad that could be used as a mode select.

 

It also probably makes sense to just go all aluminum and use the vertical strip out of the 800XL for the console buttons.

 

Really, it would be nice if you could actually get something new made like this instead of having to cobble it together from old parts. I think there is a business model here for an entrepreneur.

[Rybags]

I think that a deep but narrow keyboard is much better than one that's wide but not deep.

 

As for wedge programs that substitue serial input for PC keystrokes - quite often those type of things aren't good for games as DirectX seems to use a different approach again for key input.

 

So, I'd advise before plunging any $$$ into such shareware to try it extensively with normal apps, MAME, and several modern games.

Of course the other downfall is that if the real Atari is supplying the keystrokes, you get the one at a time limitation.

 

IMO, the best solution all-round would just be one of those programmable controller boards shown earlier, linked to the PS2 port.

[UNIXcoffee928]

OK, interesting design evolutions. The first one keeps going in the 101 direction. The second one deletes the widening PC keys, and puts them on the top row, with the function keys, ALT, etc. to leave a streamline mashup of an 800, 1200XL, & 800XL. Pretty straightforward Atari lines on it.

 

Which would you prefer to type on? I like the second, myself.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Actually, as I began to think about it... replacement keyboard sets don't come with the console keys...

 

They go to the top too. There may be a few more top row keys, in addition to those in this image, but this design is pretty much fleshed out now.

 

Thoughts?

[Rybags]

Now you've lost the upside down "T" cursor keys.

 

Even if you don't type, they're a must-have for FPS games.

[UNIXcoffee928]

OK, here's an empty keyboard layout, and a first attempt at labeling keycaps. With this layout there are not enough keys for ALT, `, and tilde.

 

Point well taken with the Arrow Keys. I think that we may have to have the last wider keyboard, to properly accommodate all of the keys. Too bad, I rather liked the most recent... but we have to make this keyboard really usable.

 

Next thing is key layout. ALT will be near delete. The Windows keys W1 & W2 will be moved.

 

Suggestions on key placement?

[atariksi]

XEP80 type emulation would be a worthy cause, I think.

 

Also, I should have mentioned, there's already a hardware device out there which can let you control the real Atari keyboard and joysticks via PC, although the keyboard part requires a driver on the A8 side.

 

It often shows up on eBay - it's also compatible with the Amiga and a couple of other systems, IIRC.

 

 

As for doing funky stuff on the emulator - consider the "ENTER" command. Essentially what it does is tell the Atari to get it's input from a file rather than the E: device.

 

Aside from entering programs, it does have some flexibility to do other things.

 

In regards to that ebay item you mentioned, the auction ends today: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=320262511361

 

It does the 1040ST keyboard using parallel port (no drivers required). It does the PS/2 keyboard using parallel port (no drivers required). It does the Amiga keyboard (no drivers required). It does the Atari 400/800/XL console keys (no driver required), but for the rest of the Atari 400/800/XL analog keyboard, it uses a 256-byte driver that runs during VBI and uses the 764 method as RyBags already hinted at.

 

I'm sure you can drive the PS/2 keyboard connector flawlessly from the Atari joystick port if you built your own custom cable as Yorgle was explaining. I was able to simulate the PS/2 keyboard flawlessly from another PC using DOS version of MPDOS. Windows had some problems as certain keys like CTRL-ALT-DEL require switching to RING 0.

 

Then again, using an Atari keyboard on a PC on an emulator is like playing with fake jewelry-- the reverse is better (as far as Atari low-level programming fans go).

 

I'm confused. Isn't the goal here to use an ATARI keyboard as a primary keyboard for a PC? This device seems to be the other way around, i.e., allowing PC keyboard, mouse, etc. to be used for an ATARI. Did I miss something in the description?

 

The same method I used to control a PS/2 keyboard port from a PC parallel port can be used to control a PS/2 keyboard port from an Atari joystick port. So that would reverse the simulation. Each bit transmitted in the PS/2 keyboard protocol is more than 5 microseconds and given Atari's cycle time at 558 nanoseconds, it should work and won't require any drivers on the PC side so it will work with all software including emulators. Using piping or redirecting COM: ports for keyboard input is only good on the DOS/OS level. Hardware level simulation would allow you to read the keyboard on the PC side using port registers 60h..64h with an ASM instruction like IN AL,60h. I mainly did the PS/2 simulation from another PC just so I can use one keyboard with two desktops.

 

The discussion seems to have branched out, so multiple options have been discussed.

 

The MPDOS gizmo with all the cables (and PC-side software) allows a PC to directly/indirectly control device inputs of the A8 or various other systems (some with, some without extra software).

 

 

As for the other way around - largely unexplored territory there, and there's a number of options being discussed.

 

One more thing about that Atari 8-bit keyboard driver is that it still allows you to use the REAL keyboard simultaneously. So you can have two people typing away at the same time.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Cool. Too bad you can only type into one focused window, though. It would be nice if it was a separate tty session.

 

Speaking of which, has anyone ever plugged in two USB keyboards at once in Window$? Does it work?

 

If it does, then I'll just build this thing as a strictly Atari USB box, & I won't have to F#$% around with all of these additional keys that don't make sense in an Atari anyway.

 

What's the consensus on two keyboards on the desk? (I'm the wrong person to ask, I count four & a Novation Bass Station... ),

[Rybags]

I've got a wireless USB keyboard and pretty sure you can use multiple kbs without too much hassle. Of course, they can interfere with each other so you only want to use 1 at a time.

 

Similar deal with mice, although I think there are workarounds to have 2 mice in independant operation.

 

That's one of the mysteries of modern PCs. Sure, virtualisation is the latest big thing, but multi-user capability is sadly lacking.

In an office environment these days, there's no reason why 4 people could share the one machine with multiple key/mice setups and an independant monitor/desktop per client.

 

Of course though, that would mean less OS licences, and probably less money, so that's the #1 reason I'd guess it hasn't been pursued properly by M$

[machf]

I remember back then in the mid-80s, a friend from school had his IBM PCjr, which had that original wireless keyboard with calculator-like keys... and then IBM sent a decent keyboard to all the owners of the PCjr, I believe, so he had both. I'd take the old keyboard, point it at his PCjr while he was typing and start pressing random keys... that annoyed the hell out of him. Ah, those days... he sure was a real computer freak. Unfortunately, some years ago I found out through a college friend who worked at the same company that he had committed suicide, I don't know what could have driven him to do that (no silly jokes about me having annoyed him too much, please - that would be in really bad taste).

 

As for mice, a couple of years ago I casually had connected both a serial mouse and a PS/2 one on a PC, and the pointer would respond to both. Never checked with USB ones, but I don't see why they shouldn't behave in the same way...

 

Anyway, I think this is going towards turning desktop PCs into a modern version of the old mainframes (which had far less computing power than your average desktop PC from today, I guess) with several terminals attached... it wouldn't really be difficult for an OS to handle that. Linux already has multiple terminals since ages ago, it would be a matter of telling it to get data from a particular input device for each of them. Hmmm, multiplayer games on a single PC...

[yorgle]

Cool. Too bad you can only type into one focused window, though. It would be nice if it was a separate tty session.

 

Speaking of which, has anyone ever plugged in two USB keyboards at once in Window$? Does it work?

 

If it does, then I'll just build this thing as a strictly Atari USB box, & I won't have to F#$% around with all of these additional keys that don't make sense in an Atari anyway.

 

What's the consensus on two keyboards on the desk? (I'm the wrong person to ask, I count four & a Novation Bass Station... ),

 

I'm using two keyboards with my pc without any problem- my primary keyboard is my 1200xl on my desk which connects to the pc's ps2 port and another wireless usb keyboard is hidden in my deskdrawer for the rare occasion when I need a key not programmed into my 1200xl setup.

 

Regarding the idea of controlling the pc ps2 port from the Atari joystick port with no drivers on the pc side- that's the best idea I've heard so far. I would love to try this. I'm sure I could manage to make the appropriate cable, but there's little chance of me figuring out the programming needed to take the Atari keyboard codes, convert them to ps2 codes and send them to the proper pin(s) on the joystick port.

Edited June 19, 2008 by yorgle

[machf]

OK, here's an empty keyboard layout, and a first attempt at labeling keycaps. With this layout there are not enough keys for ALT, `, and tilde.

 

Point well taken with the Arrow Keys. I think that we may have to have the last wider keyboard, to properly accommodate all of the keys. Too bad, I rather liked the most recent... but we have to make this keyboard really usable.

 

Next thing is key layout. ALT will be near delete. The Windows keys W1 & W2 will be moved.

 

Suggestions on key placement?

The right CTRL next to ALT and delete? That would make it the perfect Windows keyboard...

 

Wondering which Atari keys you're matching to which PC keys... (aside from the obvious ones, of course)

 

OPTION, SELECT, START and HELP to the same Fn keys used by most emulators?

The 1200XL's F1-F4 keys to the arrow keys?

The Atari Logo/Inverse key to Num Lock? (Maybe not a good idea...)

 

 

Anyway.. consider something like this to assign the proper character layout afterwards:

http://www.kbdedit.com/

http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx

http://webpages.charter.net/krumsick/

http://www.klm32.com/index.html

 

Basically, defining "Atari800" as a new "language" for keyboard layout...

Edited June 19, 2008 by machf

[Rybags]

Mapping Atari to PC keys in software is the least of the worry.

 

Some sort of extra external circuitry is probably needed for the clock line though. I don't know how the Atari would react, or detect a clock line being pulled low, considering that (pretty sure here) the PIA doesn't support maintaining an output state on a bit, and being able to read that same bit's status.

 

Need someone with the electronics expertise to step in and sort that one out.

Edited June 19, 2008 by Rybags

[machf]

Which way is this going... using a running A8 or just the keyboard? If it's the latter, you don't need to worry about how the A8 would react at all...

[Rybags]

My last was in reference to a running A8.

 

With the control board setup, I guess it'd just be a simple case of hooking up the row/column lines then just defining the scan matrix on the thing.

[yorgle]

Which way is this going... using a running A8 or just the keyboard? If it's the latter, you don't need to worry about how the A8 would react at all...

 

He he he... as someone said earlier, this is going in all sorts of different directions. I think the original question was simply finding a way to use an A8 keyboard on a PC, specifically for use with A8 emulators. It was proposed that the idea was a bit silly. Somewhere along the way, someone (perhaps even myself) shifted things to various options for using an A8 keyboard with a PC in general. There's been discussion of how to physically combine an A8 keyboard and CX85 together into an entirely new keyboard for use with a PC and what the best layout for such a keyboard would be. Finally, there's been some interesting talk of controlling a pc's keyboard port via an A8's joystick port. I propose future posts be prefaced with one of the following labels:

 

A8KB2PC = concepts for use of the A8 keyboard (or parts thereof) with a PC (A8 keyboard no longer functions with an A8)

A8KB2PCPlus = concepts allowing use of the A8 keyboard (or parts thereof) with a PC but retains ability to function with the A8

 

My interest and posts have been directed toward the latter classification. I think the custom keyboard idea falls into the former. In any event, lots of good info an ideas flowing here.

[UNIXcoffee928]

That's why each physical key's terminals will be soldered point-to-point, directly to the USB logic-board's key terminals. It elliminates all of the extra headache.

 

...Of course, for a full PC keyboard, 200-300 solder points is a headache in & of itself. All of the wires will need to be long enough to eliminate working on it with a car-hood (bonnet) effect. Once wired, they'll be wrapped in neat bundles & zip-tied.

 

This is why I said it would be pricey to reproduce. $40.00-$50.00 in parts & 100-200 minutes of soldering per keyboard. Then there's case building time, too.

 

I guess that I could make them either way... all PC, or all Atari.

 

I have 9 full song compositions to memorize today, so it's unlikely that I'll be doing any further designs until this evening.

 

I'll be making one of each, the design with the middle keys (arrows, home, etc), and the one without, based off of the designs posted above.

 

It looks like it will be similar in design, but the power light will be deleted, and the entire top row will be silver keys. This will give enough space for all of the necessary PC keys. It will be as high as an 800, and the space to the spacebar will be identical to the 800.

 

I'll be incoroprating some kind of hack to allow joystick ports in the front, like the 800. This will mean that there will be two cords out of the keyboard (USB & parallel), but I can unify them with a split-loom housing, and branch 5 feet later, to keep it neat.

 

Time to start providing a further wish-list, within reason.

 

Color scheme ideas welcomed, as well as more key placement ideas.

 

 

L8R.

[Rybags]

Forget soldering every key. They only advantage doing that is that you would have a non-ghosting keyboard.

 

The control board webpage says it supports all manner of scanning matrix layouts, so all you need is to tell it to use an 8x8 matrix (which I believe the Atari uses).

 

Then all you have to do is define the key layout, which is probably all of 20 minutes work.

 

For the extra keys, you might have to go individual wiring with some, but doing a dozen sure beats doing 60.

[yorgle]

Color scheme ideas welcomed, as well as more key placement ideas.

 

 

L8R.

 

IMO, it's hard to beat the XL style and color scheme. Nearly everyone who comes into my office comments on how great my 1200xl looks even though most have no idea that it's a 25 year old computer.

[mos6507]

.

Speaking of which, has anyone ever plugged in two USB keyboards at once in Window$? Does it work?

 

I have a USB and PS2 keyboard attached at home and they are both live at the same time. Seems to work ok.

[mos6507]

OK, here's an empty keyboard layout, and a first attempt at labeling keycaps. With this layout there are not enough keys for ALT, `, and tilde.

 

Point well taken with the Arrow Keys. I think that we may have to have the last wider keyboard, to properly accommodate all of the keys. Too bad, I rather liked the most recent... but we have to make this keyboard really usable.

 

Next thing is key layout. ALT will be near delete. The Windows keys W1 & W2 will be moved.

 

Suggestions on key placement?

 

You also have to worry about things like the tilde and the backquote. I really would just have two keypads either one on each side of the keyboard or both on the right side and just paint new keycaps on there for the missing keys. Then you'll have more than enough to work with.

[atariksi]

Cool. Too bad you can only type into one focused window, though. It would be nice if it was a separate tty session.

 

Speaking of which, has anyone ever plugged in two USB keyboards at once in Window$? Does it work?

 

If it does, then I'll just build this thing as a strictly Atari USB box, & I won't have to F#$% around with all of these additional keys that don't make sense in an Atari anyway.

 

What's the consensus on two keyboards on the desk? (I'm the wrong person to ask, I count four & a Novation Bass Station... ),

 

I don't know who you were talking to regarding 'focused window'. There's only one window-- Atari BASIC or some other program. I used the dual Atari keyboard to teach BASIC (and typing); I would type a command using the PC and the other person would repeat it on the Atari keyboard.

[atariksi]

Cool. Too bad you can only type into one focused window, though. It would be nice if it was a separate tty session.

 

Speaking of which, has anyone ever plugged in two USB keyboards at once in Window$? Does it work?

 

If it does, then I'll just build this thing as a strictly Atari USB box, & I won't have to F#$% around with all of these additional keys that don't make sense in an Atari anyway.

 

What's the consensus on two keyboards on the desk? (I'm the wrong person to ask, I count four & a Novation Bass Station... ),

 

I'm using two keyboards with my pc without any problem- my primary keyboard is my 1200xl on my desk which connects to the pc's ps2 port and another wireless usb keyboard is hidden in my deskdrawer for the rare occasion when I need a key not programmed into my 1200xl setup.

 

Regarding the idea of controlling the pc ps2 port from the Atari joystick port with no drivers on the pc side- that's the best idea I've heard so far. I would love to try this. I'm sure I could manage to make the appropriate cable, but there's little chance of me figuring out the programming needed to take the Atari keyboard codes, convert them to ps2 codes and send them to the proper pin(s) on the joystick port.

 

You will need to know some low-level 6502 ASM programming as I don't think BASIC can handle the conversion and timing. My main interest is the other way around so I never bothered coding it but it's do-able. Heck, even the Commodore 64 is fast enough to handle it with it's CIA-based bi-directional joystick controller.

[atariksi]

Mapping Atari to PC keys in software is the least of the worry.

 

Some sort of extra external circuitry is probably needed for the clock line though. I don't know how the Atari would react, or detect a clock line being pulled low, considering that (pretty sure here) the PIA doesn't support maintaining an output state on a bit, and being able to read that same bit's status.

 

Need someone with the electronics expertise to step in and sort that one out.

 

One thing you can try out right now is plug the joystick into the first (or 2nd) joystick port and type:

 

10 POKE 54018,56:POKE 54016,255:POKE 54018,60:POKE 54016,255

20 ? PEEK(54016):GOTO 20

 

Now, if you move the joystick around you will see that you can still read the joystick normally. I.e, you can do INPUT while the joystick port is in OUTPUT mode on the PIA controller. That's one solution. There's also the other solution of toggling between INPUT and OUTPUT modes like I did with the PC parallel port and Commodore 64 CIA chip.

 

I guess you can ask an electronics expert how INPUT in OUTPUT mode works on PIA but not on PC.

[atariksi]

Which way is this going... using a running A8 or just the keyboard? If it's the latter, you don't need to worry about how the A8 would react at all...

 

He he he... as someone said earlier, this is going in all sorts of different directions. I think the original question was simply finding a way to use an A8 keyboard on a PC, specifically for use with A8 emulators. It was proposed that the idea was a bit silly. Somewhere along the way, someone (perhaps even myself) shifted things to various options for using an A8 keyboard with a PC in general. There's been discussion of how to physically combine an A8 keyboard and CX85 together into an entirely new keyboard for use with a PC and what the best layout for such a keyboard would be. Finally, there's been some interesting talk of controlling a pc's keyboard port via an A8's joystick port. I propose future posts be prefaced with one of the following labels:

 

A8KB2PC = concepts for use of the A8 keyboard (or parts thereof) with a PC (A8 keyboard no longer functions with an A8)

A8KB2PCPlus = concepts allowing use of the A8 keyboard (or parts thereof) with a PC but retains ability to function with the A8

 

My interest and posts have been directed toward the latter classification. I think the custom keyboard idea falls into the former. In any event, lots of good info an ideas flowing here.

 

Yeah, my interest is also with leaving the A8 as a complete unit and my posts were with that intention.