Joystiq admits the Jaguar is 64-bit!

[Atariboy]

I'd love to see scans of these magazines proclaiming Cybermorph to be better than such games as Super Mario World.

[Bill Loguidice]

So you're saying Gorf that the Jaguar was not a failure in every way because it was 64-bit and was more powerful than the 3DO, Saturn and PS1, but has not a single software example to back that up? I think being limited by the cartridge format and awkward and poor controllers were significant factors in that as well, and the CD add-on did nothing to address the former issue, so I can more readily buy the "failure in every way" argument than yours.

 

Again, 64-bit, 128-bit, omnipo-bit, whatever, the fact is, there was never anything done on the Jaguar that couldn't be done as good as or better on the 3DO, Saturn or PS1, where the evidence is in released software. I SINCERELY hope that devs such as yourself can somehow prove the theory that there's this coherent, USABLE power in the Jaguar and that it is indeed not a "failure in every way", but call me skeptical after 15+ years of chances.

 

(And on a personal note, as part of my collection as a dedicated collector and writer, I have a sizeable Jaguar collection and consider myself brand and platform neutral)

[Gorf]

So you're saying Gorf that the Jaguar was not a failure in every way because it was 64-bit and was more powerful than the 3DO, Saturn and PS1, but has not a single software example to back that up? I think being limited by the cartridge format and awkward and poor controllers were significant factors in that as well, and the CD add-on did nothing to address the former issue, so I can more readily buy the "failure in every way" argument than yours.

 

Again, 64-bit, 128-bit, omnipo-bit, whatever, the fact is, there was never anything done on the Jaguar that couldn't be done as good as or better on the 3DO, Saturn or PS1, where the evidence is in released software. I SINCERELY hope that devs such as yourself can somehow prove the theory that there's this coherent, USABLE power in the Jaguar and that it is indeed not a "failure in every way", but call me skeptical after 15+ years of chances.

 

(And on a personal note, as part of my collection as a dedicated collector and writer, I have a sizeable Jaguar collection and consider myself brand and platform neutral)

 

If you would stop reading into my statments things that are not there you would see that I said it failed several times. I said

technically its hardly a failure. It was at the time, an incredible step in console technology. The failure was the handling of the

system. Is that so hard to comprehend?

 

And please show me where I said that the Jaguar was more powerful than the Saturn or PS1. BTW, both of which are AFTER the

Jaguar. I said systems before it. Including the 3DO in some instances.

 

As far the Jag showing as up anything before it, Trevor Mcfur, which is a horrid demo passed off as a game, did more than any other

system before it with exception to the 3DO. No system could push that many colors and that many sprites that large around. Again, this

was a piss poor 68k run demo. I know you may have not seen the sources for most of the Jaguar games, but I have. The system never

got used. BattleSphere and the IS's made the most use of the Jaguar. Both developers said there was more room for improment as well.

 

You can keep turning this around on development, which I alerady agreed with you on, but this is not about that. The topic is about a

technical matter concerning the Jaguar. Some one else started with the off topic issue of its failure. To be a failure in every way means

even the hardware was awful. The hardware has its issues(as do all systems) but its not awful. The tools for it were awful, the development

and develper relations were awful, the marketing was awful, the commercials were awful but the hardware was anything but awful.

 

Is that clear enough for you?

[Bill Loguidice]

Perhaps YOU could read what I wrote a little better, Gorf. Again, I'm not saying that this mythical power isn't there, I'm saying that after 15+ years of the system being around, it hasn't really been demonstrated, let alone exceeding a contemporary (supposedly inferior) like the 3DO, which, yes, obviously received far better software development support, though nowhere near what the Saturn, and of course, the PlayStation would receive.

 

Let me restate, on paper, technical specs, the power is there, right? Has it been unleashed in software, something we can see and play? No. That's what I'm waiting for. I know you keep talking about it and you say you have the ability to demonstrate it--I'm not going to doubt you. However, until I actually get to see and play a game that unleashes this power, it doesn't actually exist. Components of that mythical power may be there if the proverbial stars align and correct technique is used and special considerations are made, but perhaps it's not really possible to bring it all together, perhaps these powerful components exist in such a way that they can't all be used in parallel, which is why it hasn't been to this point.

[+Sauron]

This topic is based on a technical opinion. If or not the Jaguar is 64 bit which speaks to its technical abilities. Sauron had

the opinion that the Jaguar was a failure in every way. I said no it was a failure in software and marketing(granted very

important) but handled right it would have made Atari money. It had more power than anything else at the time.

 

I said it lagged behind its competitors in almost every way, which it did. The only console it really competed against was the 3DO, which the Jag was arguably superior to hardware-wise but couldn't compete against on the software front. By the time the PSX, Saturn, and N64 all came out, Atari had already shot themselves in the foot.

[Gorf]

I'd love to see scans of these magazines proclaiming Cybermorph to be better than such games as Super Mario World.

 

 

I'll try to find that mag in my collection box but I think what was meant was that the pack-in was much more than you would

expect for a pack in game. I mean they could have went with Dino Dudes for crying out loud! Cybermoprh like the game or not

covered a lot of ground at first glance at what the system could do. The offer of no rails - full 3D freedom, true 3D graphics in

a true 3D world environment on a cart based console. I dont think it was so much based on the preference of game likes or dislikes

and in fact I think they had plenty of complaints about it as well. For what it was it was technically a nice pack in game.

 

I think Raiden could have been a more attractive title myself. It was a known and accepted entity. I think Raiden would have needed

a graphical redo. Upgrage to cry or 24 bit color sprites instead of the 256 color mode it looks like they used. Jag Raiden was probably

ported in an afternoon.

[Gorf]

This topic is based on a technical opinion. If or not the Jaguar is 64 bit which speaks to its technical abilities. Sauron had

the opinion that the Jaguar was a failure in every way. I said no it was a failure in software and marketing(granted very

important) but handled right it would have made Atari money. It had more power than anything else at the time.

 

I said it lagged behind its competitors in almost every way, which it did. The only console it really competed against was the 3DO, which the Jag was arguably superior to hardware-wise but couldn't compete against on the software front. By the time the PSX, Saturn, and N64 all came out, Atari had already shot themselves in the foot.

 

 

Yes I see that and I appologize for the misrepresentation. But as far as the last part of this post you are dead on and really is all I am saying

here.

[Gorf]

Perhaps YOU could read what I wrote a little better, Gorf. Again, I'm not saying that this mythical power isn't there, I'm saying that after 15+ years of the system being around, it hasn't really been demonstrated, let alone exceeding a contemporary (supposedly inferior) like the 3DO, which, yes, obviously received far better software development support, though nowhere near what the Saturn, and of course, the PlayStation would receive.

 

If you are reading my posts, then why do you keep throwing in the Saturn or the PS1?

All I said about those machines is they could have been a lot more than they were and

besides drawing more polies per frame, they dont do anything that much more innovative

than the Jaguar.

 

They both have there flaws as well. The PS1 is a well thought out system but its only rated

a few more mega bytes across its bus. Why does it appear to do more? The tools exsisted

for it to do more.

 

Again the topic here is the bitness. I know you dont think so, but I agree with you a lot more

than you might think I do. Atari took a great piece of technology and completely mishandled it.

So much so, the tools we have are plain useless. The only way at the current moment to get the

Jag to perform better is to have tools for the RISC. OTher wise is is a coders hellish nightmare

to right even the smallest bit of code. Especially when you try to code using the main ram with

the GPU.

 

Let me restate, on paper, technical specs, the power is there, right? Has it been unleashed in software, something we can see and play? No. That's what I'm waiting for. I know you keep talking about it and you say you have the ability to demonstrate it--I'm not going to doubt you. However, until I actually get to see and play a game that unleashes this power, it doesn't actually exist. Components of that mythical power may be there if the proverbial stars align and correct technique is used and special considerations are made, but perhaps it's not really possible to bring it all together, perhaps these powerful components exist in such a way that they can't all be used in parallel, which is why it hasn't been to this point.

 

Well when you want to have a less condecending conversation with me, let me know. Come back off the mythical stars bullshit

and tell em when you want to act like you are on the same level as me. Let me know when you realize you are simply just starting

shit now. I've much better things to do with my time than to have someone who never once probably coded the Jag to talk down to

me about it. Amazing.

[+Sauron]

Just to head off what could turn into a flame fest, I think both Bill_Loguidice and Gorf are making what are essentially the same points, just in a different manner. The only disagreement seems to be in regards to the Jag's actual power, in which case I would have to say that Gorf is a better judge of this than pretty much everyone else here. Just in my own very limited knowledge of the Jag's architecture, I know that it certainly has the power to compete with most of the other systems of its generation, but hardware bugs + crappy dev tools made it very difficult for developers to really exploit its power.

 

Just IMO, I think a few games certainly showed promise. I think Skyhammer has got to be the most visually impressive 3D game on the Jag, despite its framerate issues, and shows that the Jag did have at least some power at its disposal.

[kevincal]

So you're saying Gorf that the Jaguar was not a failure in every way because it was 64-bit and was more powerful than the 3DO, Saturn and PS1, but has not a single software example to back that up? I think being limited by the cartridge format and awkward and poor controllers were significant factors in that as well, and the CD add-on did nothing to address the former issue, so I can more readily buy the "failure in every way" argument than yours.

 

Again, 64-bit, 128-bit, omnipo-bit, whatever, the fact is, there was never anything done on the Jaguar that couldn't be done as good as or better on the 3DO, Saturn or PS1, where the evidence is in released software. I SINCERELY hope that devs such as yourself can somehow prove the theory that there's this coherent, USABLE power in the Jaguar and that it is indeed not a "failure in every way", but call me skeptical after 15+ years of chances.

 

(And on a personal note, as part of my collection as a dedicated collector and writer, I have a sizeable Jaguar collection and consider myself brand and platform neutral)

 

Well, the 3DO version of Doom sucks compared to the Jag version. I also think the 3DO would have a hard time getting Tempest 2000 to run as good as it did on the Jaguar. The 3DO just had more developer support and a better library of games to choose from than the Jag. Technically I'd have to say the Jag is def more powerfull than the 3DO, not by a lot, but it is. Imo.

[Gorf]

Just to head off what could turn into a flame fest, I think both Bill_Loguidice and Gorf are making what are essentially the same points, just in a different manner. The only disagreement seems to be in regards to the Jag's actual power, in which case I would have to say that Gorf is a better judge of this than pretty much everyone else here. Just in my own very limited knowledge of the Jag's architecture, I know that it certainly has the power to compete with most of the other systems of its generation, but hardware bugs + crappy dev tools made it very difficult for developers to really exploit its power.

 

Just IMO, I think a few games certainly showed promise. I think Skyhammer has got to be the most visually impressive 3D game on the Jag, despite its framerate issues, and shows that the Jag did have at least some power at its disposal.

 

Thanks Sauron, and I agree. I think Bill is being a bit defensive and Im certainly not looking to start a fight over this. I think my

points are valid and I think a bit of faith on Bill's part given my experience would be nice, at least to the point where Bill is not being

condescending about what is only an opinion on his part and factual experience on my part. Just because I 've not shown the results

of my works yet does not mean its not there.

 

@ Bill : I appologize if you have some coding knowlegde of the Jaguar but lets knock off the unnecessary unfruitful and completely

uncalled for attitude. I love a good discusion but stand in my shoes and go read your posts to me. I do understand your point

but let's not go over board with the mythical BS. That was out of line. You are arguing your opinion against my experience with the

system. You really don't need to go there.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Gorf

[Gorf]

So you're saying Gorf that the Jaguar was not a failure in every way because it was 64-bit and was more powerful than the 3DO, Saturn and PS1, but has not a single software example to back that up? I think being limited by the cartridge format and awkward and poor controllers were significant factors in that as well, and the CD add-on did nothing to address the former issue, so I can more readily buy the "failure in every way" argument than yours.

 

Again, 64-bit, 128-bit, omnipo-bit, whatever, the fact is, there was never anything done on the Jaguar that couldn't be done as good as or better on the 3DO, Saturn or PS1, where the evidence is in released software. I SINCERELY hope that devs such as yourself can somehow prove the theory that there's this coherent, USABLE power in the Jaguar and that it is indeed not a "failure in every way", but call me skeptical after 15+ years of chances.

 

(And on a personal note, as part of my collection as a dedicated collector and writer, I have a sizeable Jaguar collection and consider myself brand and platform neutral)

 

Well, the 3DO version of Doom sucks compared to the Jag version. I also think the 3DO would have a hard time getting Tempest 2000 to run as good as it did on the Jaguar. The 3DO just had more developer support and a better library of games to choose from than the Jag. Technically I'd have to say the Jag is def more powerfull than the 3DO, not by a lot, but it is. Imo.

 

 

That fact is and I have said this before, as with any system, there are strong points and weak points.

Sony and 3DO did a much better job of covering up the weakpoints and making sure the strong points

were at the developers disposal.

 

Imagine being a C coder, with most of the poular titles of that day written in mostly C/C++ code. Now,

you get handed a Jag dev kit with a 68k compiler with only an outdated assembler for the risc's. No means

of local ram management whatsoever..yeah it was promised but never happened. I just want some of you

to imagine trying to code an app like doom in assembler on the RISCS having to write all your libs,all your

memory and local ram management and every last thing just about from scratch. Then you can start to write

a game that will indeed show you that the power of the JAgur was there. Doom is aperfect example BTW.

 

It is mostly C code and a lot od 68k to boot. Imagine if they actually went through the trouble and kept the 68k

off the bus. You'd have doubled the frame rate or the resolution and maybe even a little of both.

 

Its hard to blame anyone not wanting to go through the trouble. It truly is a lot of trouble. C code as much as I hate

it, its a much more productive language to code in and by far faster to complete and app with than assembler. All

the big software houses that originally signed with the Jaguar no doubt realized the machine was usesless to port

given the tools and decided to go with the systems with the tols and support, and therefore quicker returns on the

investment. This has nothing to do with power. It has everything to do with support.

 

EDIT:

Just so you are all clear on why I am so insistant on this is, the Jaguar dev kit had a very few small math example libs

for the RISC and nothing else. You really dont understand. When I say thre was nothing I mena there was nothing in the

way of RISC support for the Jaguar. What little was there was example code at best. The code comments even stated this.

Guess what most developers used....you guess it :the example code.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Gorf

[Bill Loguidice]

I don't do "flame wars" or make it personal ever, so if anyone thinks I'm somehow going down that route, think again. If someone can't handle a simple discussion without getting offended or angry, then they're probably too thin-skinned for discussion forums and get offended an awful lot over nothing. If I'm to be banned or something for it, so be it.

 

Again, it's very simple. I'm not saying the power is not there - it obviously is on paper and can be seen by those with the necessary expertise to see it, of which I don't have (no, I can't program the Jaguar and never said that I could). What I would love to see - and what no one has seen in public for the past 15+ years of the Jag's existence - is some evidence other than framey prototypes and lots of angry, defensive talk. It seems to me, from my non-coder perspective, that's there's something in the Jag's architecture - some component, some critical omission, something - that is stopping it from actually reaching its theoretical potential, which is what I think Gorf is indicating as well. Fine, we agree, it just took a while.

 

So, to wrap this up, the point is, as I've stated in my original post - whoopee that Joystiq acknowledges the bits in the Jaguar, it's doesn't change the fact that those bits don't seem evident in the system's output to date. The Jaguar, was, is and always will be a 64-bit system that doesn't seem to act like one from a gamer's perspective.

[BuddyBuddies]

Battlesphere is a fine example of the 64-bit power the Jag has,the networking is top notch and the AI is simply unbelievable! what more has to be proven?

[JagChris]

Battlesphere is a fine example of the 64-bit power the Jag has,the networking is top notch and the AI is simply unbelievable! what more has to be proven?

 

 

I'll tell you what Buddies, you hand out some of those 30 copies you got so the rest of us who have never ever even seen this game except on youtube can actually play it and then we can see what you've seen.

[JagChris]

I think being limited by the cartridge format and awkward and poor controllers were significant factors in that as well,

 

 

I absolutely and completely disagree with that.

[+remowilliams]

I'll tell you what Buddies, you hand out some of those 30 copies you got so the rest of us who have never ever even seen this game except on youtube can actually play it and then we can see what you've seen.

Good point, as Battlesphere for all it's brilliance will statistically ever be seen by just about zero percent of the population. Hard to showcase a system that way.

 

And good point about Buddies too.

 

[+Sauron]

*Gives the thumbs-up sign to JagChris and remowilliams*

[JagChris]

I'll tell you what Buddies, you hand out some of those 30 copies you got so the rest of us who have never ever even seen this game except on youtube can actually play it and then we can see what you've seen.

Good point, as Battlesphere for all it's brilliance will statistically ever be seen by just about zero percent of the population. Hard to showcase a system that way.

 

And good point about Buddies too.

 

 

 

Its not Buddybuddies fault. The truth of the matter is only 1% of the Jag community can afford the incredibly ridiculous Battlesphere prices.

 

When I think of a showcase game for a system it should be something that every fan of the system is able to acquire at a reasonable price. Not something when friends come over that I have to hop on youtube to show them some mythical game from a faraway land where people are far more wealthier than I.

 

It's not available to the masses easily at all so like you said, its hard to count it as a showcase game.

[thomasholzer]

Yes, Cybermorph rocks, as does the sequel, Battlemorph. Play both games, play 'em through if you can. Cybermorph is a very hard game, too hard for most (Nintendo) players for sure, but stick with it, it's very rewarding.

 

Actually, Cybermorph: 50 planets (levels) to chose from, totally 3D free roaming enviroment, real time light sourced polygons, 50 frames per sec, excellent stereo/superb voice effects/audio at 27 kHz DSP, not bad at all for a 1993 cartridge (Nintendo only managed this 3 years later for the ill-fated N64 (And they only managed to squeeze 15 levels into the cartridge...and it was a restricted enviroment too)).

 

 

Anyway, they finally admit? What's to admit, shouldn't they know the fact, them being a video game magazine? If unsure they just could have asked John Mathieson in the first place. Maybe they should be a cooking magazine instead if they don't know anything about video game consoles.

Edited July 3, 2008 by thomasholzer

[EmOneGarand]

I'll tell you what Buddies, you hand out some of those 30 copies you got so the rest of us who have never ever even seen this game except on youtube can actually play it and then we can see what you've seen.

Good point, as Battlesphere for all it's brilliance will statistically ever be seen by just about zero percent of the population. Hard to showcase a system that way.

 

And good point about Buddies too.

 

 

 

Its not Buddybuddies fault. The truth of the matter is only 1% of the Jag community can afford the incredibly ridiculous Battlesphere prices.

 

When I think of a showcase game for a system it should be something that every fan of the system is able to acquire at a reasonable price. Not something when friends come over that I have to hop on youtube to show them some mythical game from a faraway land where people are far more wealthier than I.

 

It's not available to the masses easily at all so like you said, its hard to count it as a showcase game.

well lets just hope whatever copy protection gorf and his constituents are working on is enough for Thunderbird to reconsider a re-release.

[Gorf]

Battlesphere is a fine example of the 64-bit power the Jag has,the networking is top notch and the AI is simply unbelievable! what more has to be proven?

 

 

Bill like many gamers tend to ignore such examples, and no matter how many times you give them these,

their opinion is more important that the facts behind these games. BattleSphere would not be nearly as

sharp on any system of that time, including the Saturn and the PS1. IT would do a better job graphically

in the sense of more polies with textures at a higer frame rate, but it will not be albe to handle the game

logic without a lot of work. Scott Legrand is quite a mad man with algorithms and he says it would be very

hard to do the same with only one processor as the PS1. Every system of that day has advantages and dis-

advantages. The Jaguar had the most availble computing power. The PS1 was able to pull off so many polies

because its hardware was hardwired for it and it also have seperate busses between the graphics ram and

system ram in additon to the MIPS local memory. The MIPS the PS1 uses is a nice chip, but the JAguar RISC's

where specifically designed to handling game logic.

[Gorf]

I don't do "flame wars" or make it personal ever, so if anyone thinks I'm somehow going down that route, think again. If someone can't handle a simple discussion without getting offended or angry, then they're probably too thin-skinned for discussion forums and get offended an awful lot over nothing. If I'm to be banned or something for it, so be it.

 

Again, it's very simple. I'm not saying the power is not there - it obviously is on paper and can be seen by those with the necessary expertise to see it, of which I don't have (no, I can't program the Jaguar and never said that I could). What I would love to see - and what no one has seen in public for the past 15+ years of the Jag's existence - is some evidence other than framey prototypes and lots of angry, defensive talk. It seems to me, from my non-coder perspective, that's there's something in the Jag's architecture - some component, some critical omission, something - that is stopping it from actually reaching its theoretical potential, which is what I think Gorf is indicating as well. Fine, we agree, it just took a while.

 

So, to wrap this up, the point is, as I've stated in my original post - whoopee that Joystiq acknowledges the bits in the Jaguar, it's doesn't change the fact that those bits don't seem evident in the system's output to date. The Jaguar, was, is and always will be a 64-bit system that doesn't seem to act like one from a gamer's perspective.

 

 

No here..this wraps its up Bill....you feel your opinion is more valid than my experience. Just go read your posts to me.

You trample experience under the foot of your opinion. You accuse me a myth and fantasy when what I tell you is based

on experience. This is what comes across a lot more arrogant. You also ignore the examples of games like BatttleSphere,

Skyhammer, HoverStrikeCD, Tempest 2000 which all clearly smash anything on any system before it. Like the game play

or not of any of these is not the point. Your opinion does not change facts just becasue you have not been given evidence.

 

Tempest 2000 could not be as well redone on the PS1. It does not have the blitter. It has to fake it with a polygon and you can

see the difference. IT may draw at a faster rate but you can see a big difference in the amount of single pixels. The Jaguar is

much more able in this regard. It's not limited to drawing everything as a polygon. It does less in a frame in polycount.

but it makes up for it in other effects you are'nt pulling off on the other two systems after it. Not with out ease and choking

the busses of those systems.

 

PS1 could not do a faithful BattleSphere. It will out draw it graphically but it would never have the same logic the Jaguar

does. The PS1 is not able to be hooked to another and use that other machine as a parellel processing node. The Jaguar

does this as you add more nodes to a BattleSphere network. Not even the current generation does this. It may beable to

but its an after thought at best.

 

The fact is Bill, the examples are there...just because you choose to ignore them and declare your opinion as more important

than tested fact, does not make these examples a myth. Like it or not Bill, if you pay attention, you will see that the Jaguar can

do things, important things that no system of its time could do with out a lot of hard work.

[Gorf]

well lets just hope whatever copy protection gorf and his constituents are working on is enough for Thunderbird to reconsider a re-release.

 

This has a lot more to do with the attitude of too many in the community than it does with

copy protection. Though for the most part, Jag fans are loyal and greatful. Then there are

those who might own a Jag but aer hardly 'fans'...interested maybe...but not true fans.

 

This is who we aim to serve...We want the true fans to get the few copies of our games.

These are not made for money, or for popularity sake. They are made as games by Jag

fans to Jag fans...true Jag fans. We know we can trust the loyal and true over the mediocre.

 

If copy-protection was the only issue, we might have already seen another release.

[Bill Loguidice]

well lets just hope whatever copy protection gorf and his constituents are working on is enough for Thunderbird to reconsider a re-release.

 

This has a lot more to do with the attitude of too many in the community than it does with

copy protection. Though for the most part, Jag fans are loyal and greatful. Then there are

those who might own a Jag but aer hardly 'fans'...interested maybe...but not true fans.

 

This is who we aim to serve...We want the true fans to get the few copies of our games.

These are not made for money, or for popularity sake. They are made as games by Jag

fans to Jag fans...true Jag fans. We know we can trust the loyal and true over the mediocre.

 

If copy-protection was the only issue, we might have already seen another release.

 

Do you care to elaborate on what the other issues are? The Jaguar community is unique in comparison to any other community that I know of in vintage videogames and computers, and I'd certainly appreciate some of your opinions to understand why that rift is there since you've always been one of its most outspoken and frankly angry members on the development side.