colecovision tvgame fan made system?

[newcoleco]

Stay on your chair and read carefully.

 

I admit to be one of those who expected a ColecoVision tvgame system.

 

For those who don't know it, TechnoSource did a couple of tvgame systems including those with Activision and Intelivision games. They also did some products with the name Coleco on it, but nothing with ColecoVision content.

 

The only tvgames released with the name Coleco was an attempt to port electronic games like the head-to-head games to a console to plug on tv. Some people mix Coleco and ColecoVision, so they bought these tvgames with high expectation and finally they got a big deception because they wanted ColecoVision games.

 

I tried to contact RWB, but they are maybe in vacations. So I contacted TechnoSource to know if RWB asked them to make something with the ColecoVision brand name. TechnoSource simply reply this :

Thanks for the interest in Techno Source. I am sorry to say that we no longer have the Coleco license or a partnership with RWB and can't help in this situation.

 

I suppose then RWB are not going to release anything related to the original ColecoVision game system.

 

For those who don't know it, Telegames still have the worldwide copyrights on most of the ColecoVision games we know. I don't know what RWB said to Telegames, but the result is we still not have a Colecovision related tvgame system... I don't know for you but I think it's sad.

 

I talked with Telegames UK and they told me they are going to stop completely their 8bit activities in a few months, they have no dina 2-in-1 left, and no mold to produce more cartridges, they just selling stuff they still have in their inventory. I decided to continue the discussion and talk about an idea of making a tvgame system with built-in ColecoVision games like Donkey Kong, and this is the answer :

It is a good idea - however we would not be able to develop it or fund it. If any one released any hardware we would offer to sell it and support it.

 

I ask them if I can talk about this with my friends; the answer was quick and affirmative.

No objection

 

I don't know what you think about it, it looks like we have the ok to do our own tvgame system with classic ColecoVision games.

 

The idea I submited to Telegames was between a close tvgame and an open console system. I heard about making console emulation in a chip, and I suppose it's possible to make one chip that emulate well enough the ColecoVision game system. And if this console made with this coleco in a chip thing can handle real ColecoVision cartridge too, with a cartridge slot, this will make fans happier and help a lot the Coleco homebrew scene as well as the Coleco fans. The replay value with a cartridge slot increase the selling potential in my opinion.

 

Well, It seems to me that it's up to us to develop a ColecoVision tvgame system for the fans.

What do you think about that? It's a good idea or not? Will we do it or not?

[the.golden.ax]

Would Telegames be willing to sell the worldwide rights? See I'd be worried you would go to the legnths of dev, only to be told they want something goofy like 80% profits as the owner.

 

BTW I'm fairly certain they have been selling, or are done selling their old stock of games to Game Source in Titusville, FL. They are a liquidator that deals in bulk discounted game items.

 

AX

Edited August 6, 2008 by the.golden.ax

[ten-four]

It sounds like sweet music to my ears.

 

Maybe you just had to get it in writing first with witnesses.

 

I would like to see a version like the One Chip MSX.

It would be nice.

 

But I'm not the one who can program something like this.

[Pixelboy]

It sounds like sweet music to my ears.

 

Maybe you just had to get it in writing first with witnesses.

 

I would like to see a version like the One Chip MSX.

It would be nice.

 

But I'm not the one who can program something like this.

Eduardo could, with some help. He once described to me how he could regroup a lot of electronic components from the original CV into a single programmable chip, therefore drastically reducing the number of parts and also reducing the complexity of the main circuit board, while still retaining 100% compatibility with all CV games. I don't remember much of the specifics, but he wanted to use the V9958 graphic chips, which is fully backward compatible with the CV's TMS9928. He even wanted to do a prototype of this, at one point.

[retroillucid]

Stay on your chair and read carefully.

 

I admit to be one of those who expected a ColecoVision tvgame system.

 

For those who don't know it, TechnoSource did a couple of tvgame systems including those with Activision and Intelivision games. They also did some products with the name Coleco on it, but nothing with ColecoVision content.

 

The only tvgames released with the name Coleco was an attempt to port electronic games like the head-to-head games to a console to plug on tv. Some people mix Coleco and ColecoVision, so they bought these tvgames with high expectation and finally they got a big deception because they wanted ColecoVision games.

 

I tried to contact RWB, but they are maybe in vacations. So I contacted TechnoSource to know if RWB asked them to make something with the ColecoVision brand name. TechnoSource simply reply this :

Thanks for the interest in Techno Source. I am sorry to say that we no longer have the Coleco license or a partnership with RWB and can't help in this situation.

 

I suppose then RWB are not going to release anything related to the original ColecoVision game system.

 

For those who don't know it, Telegames still have the worldwide copyrights on most of the ColecoVision games we know. I don't know what RWB said to Telegames, but the result is we still not have a Colecovision related tvgame system... I don't know for you but I think it's sad.

 

I talked with Telegames UK and they told me they are going to stop completely their 8bit activities in a few months, they have no dina 2-in-1 left, and no mold to produce more cartridges, they just selling stuff they still have in their inventory. I decided to continue the discussion and talk about an idea of making a tvgame system with built-in ColecoVision games like Donkey Kong, and this is the answer :

It is a good idea - however we would not be able to develop it or fund it. If any one released any hardware we would offer to sell it and support it.

 

I ask them if I can talk about this with my friends; the answer was quick and affirmative.

No objection

 

I don't know what you think about it, it looks like we have the ok to do our own tvgame system with classic ColecoVision games.

 

The idea I submited to Telegames was between a close tvgame and an open console system. I heard about making console emulation in a chip, and I suppose it's possible to make one chip that emulate well enough the ColecoVision game system. And if this console made with this coleco in a chip thing can handle real ColecoVision cartridge too, with a cartridge slot, this will make fans happier and help a lot the Coleco homebrew scene as well as the Coleco fans. The replay value with a cartridge slot increase the selling potential in my opinion.

 

Well, It seems to me that it's up to us to develop a ColecoVision tvgame system for the fans.

What do you think about that? It's a good idea or not? Will we do it or not?

 

What a great news we got here!

 

I think it can be done... A lot of info for Colecovision on a chip...

look here

http://home.freeuk.com/fpgaarcade/cv.htm

[newcoleco]

I think it can be done... A lot of info for Colecovision on a chip...

look here

http://home.freeuk.com/fpgaarcade/cv.htm

 

msx in a chip, and coleco in a chip, I knew it was possible.

 

Personally, I can't make a prototype. However, I can offer my games and keep the contact with Telegames UK.

 

I'm sure there is enough brain here to figure out how to make the console and how to mass product it at low cost.

[Ikrananka]

I think it can be done... A lot of info for Colecovision on a chip...

look here

http://home.freeuk.com/fpgaarcade/cv.htm

 

msx in a chip, and coleco in a chip, I knew it was possible.

 

Personally, I can't make a prototype. However, I can offer my games and keep the contact with Telegames UK.

 

I'm sure there is enough brain here to figure out how to make the console and how to mass product it at low cost.

I'm all for this project. Our original CV consoles are not going to last forever with failure rates increasing more and more as they age. Having a brand new hardware alternative would be great.

 

Don't know if the FPGA route is the right one or not but a couple of comments about it:

 

1. I looked a while back at the available FPGA motherboards boards and CPUs and man were they expensive - I suspect they are aimed at far more complex systems. Could someone in our midst develop/produce cheaper CV FPGA boards?

 

2. The FPGA route is essentially emulation on a chip. The quality of this emulation would need to be very high to satisfy the many die-hard CV fans here.

 

Regardless - you have my support.

[retroillucid]

Should not look like a slim PS2... like my NES Clone (NES on a chip)

 

 

Anyway... let's hope someone will try to build a protype...

[Pixelboy]

Should not look like a slim PS2... like my NES Clone (NES on a chip)

 

Anyway... let's hope someone will try to build a protype...

That reminds me of an old thread...

[newcoleco]

Yes, this thread is familiar to some others.

For me, this means it's a good idea and we should do it.

[the.golden.ax]

I have a Dina 2 in 1 if it helps the effort. Some of the work has already be doneto make a slimer ColecoVision (but it doesn't work with everything).

 

AX

[Pixelboy]

Yes, this thread is familiar to some others.

For me, this means it's a good idea and we should do it.

Well, one thing I was planning to do (even before this thread was created) is devote a section of my future ColecoVision web site to such a prototype project. I could buy a couple of casings from Polycase.com, have them cut out some large holes into them (for connectors, buttons and also heat venting), and they could serve as basis for the global system design. Perhaps I could even get Eduardo on board as an auxiliary advisor. This could be loads of fun!

[doubledown]

I have a Dina 2 in 1 if it helps the effort. Some of the work has already be doneto make a slimer ColecoVision (but it doesn't work with everything).

 

AX

 

I know one problem with the Telegames Personal Arcade, not sure if its electronicaly identical to the Dina or not, was that they don't have the decoding circuitry on the PCB for the controllers. This is why 1st and 3rd party ColecoVision controllers don't work properly on these consoles. They will as far as directions and at least one fire button, I think, but not for the second button or the keypad. This would need to be addressed.

[Jess Ragan]

The ColecoVision was a marketing dead end. What worked for the system in the early 1980s- ports of popular arcade games- has doomed its chances of a modern day comeback. It would be a nightmare trying to get the rights to all of those old games, since half the companies are industry giants (Nintendo, Sega, Konami) while the other half have vanished from the face of the earth (Ventureline, Exidy).

 

Sure, everyone felt ripped off when the Coleco brand name was revived but the ColecoVision itself was left behind. However, there was nothing that River West Brands could do to avoid this. Nintendo's not selling them the rights to Donkey Kong, and Stern's too dead to sell them the rights to Frenzy.

[Pixelboy]

The ColecoVision was a marketing dead end. What worked for the system in the early 1980s- ports of popular arcade games- has doomed its chances of a modern day comeback. It would be a nightmare trying to get the rights to all of those old games, since half the companies are industry giants (Nintendo, Sega, Konami) while the other half have vanished from the face of the earth (Ventureline, Exidy).

 

Sure, everyone felt ripped off when the Coleco brand name was revived but the ColecoVision itself was left behind. However, there was nothing that River West Brands could do to avoid this. Nintendo's not selling them the rights to Donkey Kong, and Stern's too dead to sell them the rights to Frenzy.

That's why it's important to include a cartridge port on this proposed unit. That way, there's no need to get licenses for all the CV arcade ports, you just let people buy existing carts on eBay or other online sources. This unit will always remain a niche market anyway, so the current supply of old carts is more than enough to satisfy demand for old arcade ports to play on it.

 

In terms of CV dev kits, there are already a couple of options out there (the Hi-Tech C compiler, and the Cygwin-based SDCC), and there are also assembly compilers available too, so the only thing missing is a proper sound dev tool to create sound data. With all these tools, and the availability of PCBs, EPROMs and cartridge shells, everything is practically in place to support the unit with new games, although it's understood that it will always remain a hobby. But at least there would be an actual current outlet for this hobby, instead of a decaying console that's kept on life-support through expensive repairs, tweaking and modding.

 

My only real concern (and it's a big one as far as I'm concerned) is what I would call the "household safety" factor of the proposed unit. If this project really took off and we managed to manufacture and sell hundreds of copies of this thing, I really wouldn't want to wake up one morning and hear on the news that a house burned down because of an electrical incident caused by some kind of surge or electrical failure in the unit. I know that the unit would be built using mostly off-the-shelf parts, including a standard power supply that anyone can buy at his/her local hardware store or electronic boutique, but still, wouldn't it be necessary to get some kind of government approval, just to be on the safe side legally?

[doubledown]

For approval you'd need to send a completed unit to UL (Underwriters Labratory) for approval (really expensive by the way and time consuming). Realistically though it you used an off the shelf power supply, it probably would already have to have the UL approval on the label if it was being sold in stores.

[newcoleco]

Telegames told me we need a minimum of 5000 units to release in the market. The question is : "is there at least 5000 people who will want to buy a ColecoVision clone system?" Hopefully, the answer can be find with the help of the Internet to quickly spread the word, do a survey, collect opinions and do pre-orders when the project will be in the production phase.

 

Even if I'm very enthousiast, I know we can only focus on one clone system with the biggest chance of success, we have to study all the possibilities and find the best one to support it. During that time, I want to make a short video asking people if they want a ColecoVision clone system for today's tvset, and with luck, I may keep the attention of webzines, news, press, and all the Coleco fans around the world.

 

Some people may say : "it's a waste of time."; answer them : "doing nothing is a waste of time".

[retroillucid]

During that time, I want to make a short video asking people if they want a ColecoVision clone system for today's tvset...

 

Surprisingly... I say: I want one!

 

But seriously... I think 5000 is at least a fair number if it's sold worldwide...

 

How many of their crap did RiverWest produced?

 

I just think it possible since many hardcore fans (like me ) will buy 2 of these unit...

and some will discover this great console...

 

But my question is: Who will produce this thing?

 

Maybe I'm wrong...

[PkK]

Telegames told me we need a minimum of 5000 units to release in the market. The question is : "is there at least 5000 people who will want to buy a ColecoVision clone system?" Hopefully, the answer can be find with the help of the Internet to quickly spread the word, do a survey, collect opinions and do pre-orders when the project will be in the production phase.

 

 

This will be difficult; just remember the sales numbers of CV homebrew games.

 

Philipp

[PkK]

But seriously... I think 5000 is at least a fair number if it's sold worldwide...

 

Worldwide isn't that easy. Someone already mentioned UL certifiation. Most stores in the US will not sell electric equiment that isn't certified. However it could be sold through less conventional channels like small game shops.

In other parts of the world it's just plain illegal to sell electrics devices that don't have certification. Not UL certification, but whatever local laws require. Getting that certification for many places in the world will result in insane costs.

 

Philipp

[PkK]

I'm all for this project. Our original CV consoles are not going to last forever with failure rates increasing more and more as they age. Having a brand new hardware alternative would be great.

Yes. However we couldn't call it ColecoVision, since RWB still owns the trademark.

Don't know if the FPGA route is the right one or not but a couple of comments about it:

 

1. I looked a while back at the available FPGA motherboards boards and CPUs and man were they expensive - I suspect they are aimed at far more complex systems. Could someone in our midst develop/produce cheaper CV FPGA boards?

Well, generic FPGA boards tend to have lots of features. They're aimed at developers, people that want to experiment with them. They have peripherals and often a rather large FPGA. These boards tend to range from about a hundred dollars to ten thousand.

However for the new CV we would just use the smallest FPGA that will do for a ColecoVision.

 

Philipp

[newcoleco]

This will be difficult; just remember the sales numbers of CV homebrew games.

 

Philipp

Yes, 5000 sounds too big... but I think it's only because we have no idea how great this project can be.

 

I don't know if it counts, but my video about how I make new ColecoVision games in cartridges actually beat the 5000 views. It's the most popular video in my channel. There are more Coleco fans out there! We just don't know how many.

 

The sales number of CV homebrew games reflect only the reality of the actual ColecoVision owners. By adding more consoles in the hands of Coleco fans who just don't have the chance to own an original one, we will see a positive boost in the ColecoVision homebrew scene and bring back the real power of this incredible game system powered by the fans.

 

If selling wordwide is a problem, then let's go for a more specific market. As soon as the console came out, the fans will do the rest to modify it to be playable everywhere they want.

 

* a side note *

I saw so many people who just can't play again with their own ColecoVision game systems because of broken controllers, video chip problems, and much more. In years 2000-2002, I had to sell my spares ColecoVision game systems, and one of them goes to Serge-Eric Tremblay, who did a ColecoVision homebrew game named Amazing Snake. I do not have enough fingers to count the number of times I heard about ColecoVision game system problems from friends I meet with the Internet, and it's not because it was a bad game system. I had to say "sorry" to some people who think I was someone from the original Coleco Industries and can replace their broken controllers or find a particular cabbage patch kid toy.

[doubledown]

You kind of need to look at it like the Atari Flashback consoles. Does anybody know how many of those units were sold? A ColecoVision console like that, in the $30-$50 range, could sell a decent number I think like the Flashback probably did, but those units were massed produced for probably under $5.00 ea once the R&D money was recouped. Anybody here willing to take a 2nd and/or 3rd mortgage out to be the venture capitalist? If you wanna make an FPGA version the whole console would have to sell for a couple hundered dollars with minimal if any profits going to the "manufacturing team" and then you'd only be able to sell only a small amount of them due to the price. If this is really something that you'd wanna see in stores it would need to be like the Flashback console, with a cartridge slot of course, which means you'll need the clowns who own the "Coleco" and "ColecoVision" names on board and a decent means for production, assembly, and distribution. I remember a few years back when RWB started anouncements about aquiring the Coleco brand they had talked about bring back the ColecoVision, but all that was ever released were the Coleco sports handhelds, and those 6-in-1 or 12-in-1 direct connect tv games "consoles" (the term consoles used very loosely).

[Pixelboy]

It seems obvious to me that this would be a mail-order-only product, so all we would really need is a proper official web site from where people could order.

 

Also, FPGAs are nice and all, but AFAIK they're more for development purposes (do correct me if I'm wrong). You can still find Z80 chips today that can run at 3.58 MHz (opcode told me this himself earlier this year) and while the TMS9928 chip is no longer available, the compatible V9958 chip can still be found today at reasonable prices. The only problem is the sound chip, for which I'm not sure there's an available, fully compatible equivalent today.

 

If opcode was here he could probably provide a lot of technical details about how to get this done. In fact, I just checked my e-mail records, and I found some past comments from Eduardo, which are indirectly related to what we're talking about right now:

 

If I manage to complete the PCB design using Proteus, I don't see why we would need to involve Bryan. And in the end I am saying that I like your concept for a new CV. I mean, I think we are reaching the best of both worlds here. Using the V9958, an extra sound IC (it would be an SCC or an OPLL, which already includes the DAC), and using a faster Z80 instead of 2 regular Z80s, that would produce a nice machine which is inexpensive to produce still significantly more powerful than a regular CV. And the CPLD would help to reduce components. With a faster CPU, part of the problems with the slow VDP blitter would be overcome. I believe that with the specs above it would be just slightly more complex than a regular CV, and would still be cheaper to produce than our first version of the Opgrade Module (that one with the sound CPU and all). However we need a prototype first, in order to validate everything and create a full list of parts.

A CPLD is quite simpler than a FPGA, and it is easier to program too. Some CPLD programming packages allow you to create a schematic of the intended circuitry and the software will create all the necessary lines of code. CPLD programing software are available for free from Altera and Xilinx.

You know, I was thinking about that this weekend... I believe I would be able to produce the video and audio proto PCBs in a matter of a couple of weeks, because they are established stuff (I can use MSX schematics for reference). The main board would be a little more complicated, because the main logic is there. And I am not talking about the CPLD yet. My idea was to produce a set of proto boards, so I can validate each individual sub-system, then use the CPLD to replace the 74 ICs. My idea was to start with the simple subsystems, like video or audio, produce individual proto PCBs with male edge connectors (like cartridges) then plug them on a proto PCB connected to a CV. This way we can validate the subsystems first. Then we can produce a stand alone main PCB, plug the subsystem on it, and if everything works, we can produce an integrated PCB. Finally we would replace all the 74 ICs with a CPLD.

The technical stuff in the quotes above is way out of my league, but I'm sure some people here understand what Eduardo is talking about.

 

The other big problem would be the controller. Do we design a new modern one, or do we go into the business of refurbishing old CV controllers to go with the new console? Ideally, I would go with a solution like the pic attached below, although I know the plastic casing alone would be very expensive to produce, let alone the joypad, buttons and keypad components... To cut costs, we could probably ditch the shoulder buttons and the Super Action spinner, although that would reduce legacy game compatibility a little bit but not dramatically (no more Super Action Baseball, Football and Soccer).

[newcoleco]

RWB saw a way to make money by exploiting a brand name wellknow by retro-gamers. They did fail in exploiting right the names Coleco and Head-to-Head, giving the Coleco brand a bad reputation.

 

Finding a name for the new game system may be easy. I'm sure we can find a cool name like "flashback". Bit Corp did the hardware for dina 2-in-1 also know as the personal arcade and these names don't sound like the word Coleco.

 

I suppose we can collect donations and pre-orders to get enough money for a production. I'm afraid you are right about not having enough money to cover the research and development part, and that's why only a fan based console can be possible at this point.

 

We need first to decide which console project to do, then figure out how to make it at low cost.