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Apple II emulator


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#1 Kaz atarionline.pl OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:27 PM

Everything on 8-bit Atari is possible. This time Piotr "Artax" Mejer proved that Atari can emulate Apple II with reasonable speed! You can read more about in Polish* here and download program (and few Apple games) here (version 0.8 ). Piotr is looking for people who can test and report bugs emulator on the real Atari (required 128KB) with DD disc drive. Enjoy this incredible piece of software.

* use a Google or Altavista online translation to get English text


---
Short manual:
1. Run emulator.
2. Put disc into disc drive.
3. Press START.
4. If you want to change disc in the disc drive wait about 5 seconds after last disc activity and press SELECT.
5. Press START again to get into emulator menu.
6. Press F7 on PC or be patient on real Atari :)

Edited by Kaz atarionline.pl, Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:37 PM.


#2 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:46 PM

thats cool like hell... but even at +300% it is little bit slow... ;)

now finally new ultima series, bards tale etc...

#3 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:50 PM

Suddenly I see the need for an A8 accelerator card... :D

I agree, that is slow but cool as hell - nice work. :cool:

Edited by remowilliams, Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:51 PM.


#4 Philsan OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:56 PM

Awesome.
PS I would like to have The Hobbit for Atari!

#5 Kaz atarionline.pl OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:05 PM

Awesome.
PS I would like to have The Hobbit for Atari!


In fact, Piotr has created Apple emulator because he wanted to see The Hobbit on Atari :). Perhaps I shouldn't give it away but I think Piotr will try to _convert_ The Hobbit apart of emulator.

By the way: notice that speed of Apple is reasonable, but emulation of disc drive is very slow! Peter is working on to speed it up.

#6 atariksi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:19 PM

Awesome.
PS I would like to have The Hobbit for Atari!


In fact, Piotr has created Apple emulator because he wanted to see The Hobbit on Atari :). Perhaps I shouldn't give it away but I think Piotr will try to _convert_ The Hobbit apart of emulator.

By the way: notice that speed of Apple is reasonable, but emulation of disc drive is very slow! Peter is working on to speed it up.


Apple company seems to have this thing about leaving everything to the processor and having less custom hardware, so they are easiest to emulate on another platform out of the major brands of classic machines like Atari 800, Commodore 64, Apple II, Mac, PC, Amiga, & Atari ST.

#7 Kaz atarionline.pl OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:57 PM

According to author the emulator (except disc drive) is working with 50% of original Apple II speed.

#8 doctorclu OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:21 PM

Suddenly I see the need for an A8 accelerator card... :D

I agree, that is slow but cool as hell - nice work. :cool:


Yes, NOW I have an interest in accelerating my Atari 8-bit.

Anyone here with accelerator try out this emulator yet?

#9 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:42 PM

How does it handle 80 columns or DOUBLE HI-RES graphics? Or LOW RES 16 color mode?

Does it support 128k RAM?

Will it run PRODOS?

#10 atariksi OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 AM

How does it handle 80 columns or DOUBLE HI-RES graphics? Or LOW RES 16 color mode?

Does it support 128k RAM?

Will it run PRODOS?


As far as resolution goes, it would be unfair to compare Apple expansions (80-column card) with an nonexpanded atari. Apple II's standard is 280*192 and that's easily do-able by a standard Commodore 64, Atari, and PC (8-bit models w/CGA). If you compare 16-bit models, Mac would be easiest to emulate from Atari ST, Amiga, PC (16-bit models w/EGA), and Mac. You can always make a particular model harder to emulate by adding some hardware expansion like a Video Toaster to Amiga, PGA card to PC, etc. but that's not part of the standard.

#11 ataridano OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:24 PM

How does it handle 80 columns or DOUBLE HI-RES graphics? Or LOW RES 16 color mode?

Does it support 128k RAM?

Will it run PRODOS?


As far as resolution goes, it would be unfair to compare Apple expansions (80-column card) with an nonexpanded atari. Apple II's standard is 280*192 and that's easily do-able by a standard Commodore 64, Atari, and PC (8-bit models w/CGA). If you compare 16-bit models, Mac would be easiest to emulate from Atari ST, Amiga, PC (16-bit models w/EGA), and Mac. You can always make a particular model harder to emulate by adding some hardware expansion like a Video Toaster to Amiga, PGA card to PC, etc. but that's not part of the standard.


I think the point is that if your Atari *is* expanded, can you use those expansions to emulate Apple expansions? Of course there's going to be Apple add-ons that are harder to emulate, but some things (like floppy drives and 80 column hardware) were fairly common place. As far as the Atari not being able to emulate Apple floppies yet, would it be possible read and write sectors... not from a real apple disk, but from a disk image file, something similar to an .atr file? I know Apple used minimal hardware on their drive controllers so the CPU might be trying to access non-exsistant hardware, but I'm sure this problem has been addressed by various PC emulators. I think it would even be cool to have an SIO2Apple floppy adaptor :)

#12 jacobus OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:59 PM

This is an amazing hack! Congrats to the authour!

I can only image the reaction it might have had 25 years ago ... exploding heads throughout the Apple community!

#13 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:00 PM

I think the point is that if your Atari *is* expanded, can you use those expansions to emulate Apple expansions? Of course there's going to be Apple add-ons that are harder to emulate, but some things (like floppy drives and 80 column hardware) were fairly common place. As far as the Atari not being able to emulate Apple floppies yet, would it be possible read and write sectors... not from a real apple disk, but from a disk image file, something similar to an .atr file? I know Apple used minimal hardware on their drive controllers so the CPU might be trying to access non-exsistant hardware, but I'm sure this problem has been addressed by various PC emulators. I think it would even be cool to have an SIO2Apple floppy adaptor :)


WHat? Apple used minimal hardware on their floppy controller? Apple had their floppy controler chip on the motherboard, and actually directly controlled the drives' head steppers and bidirectional serial interface via hardware. This made apple's disk interface one of the fastest and most low-level programmable interfaces around. This is also why there is no Apple2PC disk drive emulation systems. (Actually there is one now, but its a whole PCB worth of logic, rather than just a simple serial adaptor like comparable suystems on the ATARI & C=). An SIO2Apple would likewise require quite an involved hardware/software combination.

As far as the 80 column card not being part of the standard... Heh.. I would argue that it was very much part of the standard.. If you owned a II+ or IIe without the 80 column card, you really werent going to run about half the software that was produced during most of the apple II's span of popularity. The IIc came standard with it, and so did the Laser 128. Needless to say, the IIgs had the same capabilities... I dont think Ive ever actually USED an Apple II that didnt have the 80 column card. From the time I was in elementary school in the early 80s, all the way through highschool in the late 80s, I bet I saw THOUSANDS of Apple II machines, both at school, and at friends' houses.. And I cant remember seing a single one that didnt have the 80 column card.. It was pretty much a basic requirement.. Without it, you couldnt really use any of the more useful software on the machine. Even a good percentage of the games utilized it, if not required it.. Appleworks, Applewriter, Proterm, PRODOS, and quite a few of the better games come to mind when thinking of software that required (or would absolutely SUCK without) The 80 column expansion.. In the IIe, most 80 column expansions were also coupled with an additional 64k of RAM.. The IIc came stock with both..

SO basically, what youve got is emulation of an unexpanded Apple II+... Which is quite an achievement in itself.. And I do understand that differences in the atari vs apple hardware design make it impracticale to try to emulate the "expanded" features of the IIe/IIc on the ATARI..

#14 atariksi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:29 AM

>...adaptor like comparable suystems on the ATARI & C=). An SIO2Apple would likewise require quite an involved hardware/software combination.

I don't think disk drives should be considered in comparing 8-bit computers. They were all pretty much MFM-like coded disks with each company (including some third parties) using their own format incompatible with other machines. I'm sure you can either put the data in another format and make it available in an emulator or for copy-protected stuff build an interface to hook up the Apple drive to an Atari rather than waste CPU time in emulating it.

>As far as the 80 column card not being part of the standard... Heh.. I would argue that it was very much part of the standard.. If you owned a II+ or IIe without the 80 column card, you really werent going to run about half the software that was produced during most of the apple II's span of popularity. The IIc came standard with it, and so did the Laser 128. Needless to say, the IIgs had the same capabilities...

Well, when the 8-bit machines were at the top of the computing world in the late 70s and early 80s, the standard Apple II did not have double-hires mode. The focus switched to development of 16-bit platforms in mid-80s so you are now going into beyond 1984 with the IIgs, IIc, Laser 128, etc. when the Mac, Atari ST, 80286, and Amiga were announced and/or already out. No sense in buying a IIc or IIgs if you can get a 16-bit machine which contains a superset of the hardware.

>I dont think Ive ever actually USED an Apple II that didnt have the 80 column card. From the time I was in elementary school in the early 80s, all the way through highschool in the late 80s, I bet I saw THOUSANDS of Apple II machines, both at school, and at friends' houses.. And I cant remember seing a single one that didnt have the 80 column card.. It was pretty much a basic requirement.....

As I stated, it depends on the time period; in late 80s perhaps most had 80 column cards. All my friends who had an Apple II in early 80s did NOT have the 80 column card due to bugs or being too expensive and all their software worked just fine. And also I think the double hires wasn't supported in earlier 80 column cards. Maybe the schools bought the earlier type of text-only 80 column cards with their machines because the government was paying for their machines anyway.

>SO basically, what youve got is emulation of an unexpanded Apple II+... Which is quite an achievement in itself.. And I do understand that differences in the atari vs apple hardware design make it impracticale to try to emulate the "expanded" features of the IIe/IIc on the ATARI..

There are so many Apple IIn models where n is an ASCII character from 32..127, but I was just looking at same time period as when the other three brands were at their peak and before the 16-bit machines came into the picture. Commodore had an 80 column card for the Pet in the 70s and then they had an 80 column card for C128, but I don't take the C128 into the comparison either since that's also after the 16-bit machines became available.

The problem with Atari was that their 16-bit machine was NOT a superset of the hardware features of the Atari 8-bit machine and they did not upgrade the 8-bit either.

#15 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:40 AM

90% (or greater) of Apple IIs in use from the early 80s through the late 80s (the height of their popularity, in my opinion) had the 80 column and/or 128k memory expansion. As I said, I never saw one without it.. In the late 70s? Heh. less than 10% of the software available for the platform dates to that period..

Yes, I agree.. Atari's 16/32bit line of personal computers were a piece of shit, and totally unworthy of being called successor to something as well designed as the Atari 8-bit.

And the XEP80 was (in essence) a video terminal that used your atari for keyboard...

Edited by MEtalGuy66, Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:48 AM.


#16 Goochman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:54 AM

Most Apple II's in the early 80s I came across had 64K - 128K was a super luxury prior to 1985.

80 col board was prob more widespread early on - though most folks had either a green screen (games suck) or an expensive color monitor.

#17 gambler172 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:42 AM

Hi Kaz
Cannot get it to work.What must i do,to start it with the emulator?
I only get an error on the screen.
greetings Walter

#18 ataridano OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:04 AM

90% (or greater) of Apple IIs in use from the early 80s through the late 80s (the height of their popularity, in my opinion) had the 80 column and/or 128k memory expansion. As I said, I never saw one without it.. In the late 70s? Heh. less than 10% of the software available for the platform dates to that period..

Yes, I agree.. Atari's 16/32bit line of personal computers were a piece of shit, and totally unworthy of being called successor to something as well designed as the Atari 8-bit.

And the XEP80 was (in essence) a video terminal that used your atari for keyboard...


Regardless of rather or not the 80 column card for the Apple was popular or not, is the Atari able to emulate it? It looks like it's just a text-only display, right? Can an XEP80 or similar be used to emulate the 80 column card?

Our family's first computer was a 1040ST and of course it had a fancier processor and fancier video than the 8-bit line but other than that, I'm not overly impressed. For some reason it seems to have a somewhat strong following too. I actually bought a 130XE just because it reminded me of the ST, yet I think it's a better computer :)

#19 CharlieChaplin OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:23 AM

Hmm,
not knowing anything about Apple II, my question is do Apple games appear as bootdisks or as files ?!? And err, how do you get / convert Apple II images into Atari *.ATR images ?!? Is there a tool available that does this automatically or do you have to do it by hand ?!?

Well, its great to have the emulator, but I guess everyone would like to try some other games too (other games than those converted by the author of the emulator)... Last not least, it would be nice to also have some PD/Freeware Apple II stuff converted for the emulator, so it can be released in some PD libraries (like e.g. ABBUC PD library) or magazines (like e.g. Flop mag., Serious mag., Abbuc mag., etc.)...

-Andreas Koch.

#20 gambler172 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:27 AM

Awesome.
PS I would like to have The Hobbit for Atari!


In fact, Piotr has created Apple emulator because he wanted to see The Hobbit on Atari :). Perhaps I shouldn't give it away but I think Piotr will try to _convert_ The Hobbit apart of emulator.

By the way: notice that speed of Apple is reasonable, but emulation of disc drive is very slow! Peter is working on to speed it up.

Hi Kaz
It does not work on the emulator.I only get an "ff60"error on the screen.What must i do to get it work?
greetings Walter

#21 doctorclu OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:45 AM

I still want someone with an accelerated 8-bit Atari to try this.

#22 frogstar_robot OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:56 PM

Our family's first computer was a 1040ST and of course it had a fancier processor and fancier video than the 8-bit line but other than that, I'm not overly impressed. For some reason it seems to have a somewhat strong following too. I actually bought a 130XE just because it reminded me of the ST, yet I think it's a better computer :)


You'd probably like playing with Amigas then. Many of the same engineers behind the 2600 and the A8 chipset designed the Amiga chipset including the legendary Jay Miner. Interestingly, the ST hardware shares engineering personnell with the C-64 designers. These two companies went through a brief period of incestuous personnell interchange in the mid-eighties.

#23 atariksi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:13 PM

Most Apple II's in the early 80s I came across had 64K - 128K was a super luxury prior to 1985.

80 col board was prob more widespread early on - though most folks had either a green screen (games suck) or an expensive color monitor.


Yeah games suck as there are too many advantages for Atari like cpu speed, sprites, more colors, more graphics modes, overscan, more timing hardware, etc. but we were just trying to see if it had some standard feature advantage like 560*192 mode (double hires).

#24 atariksi OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:25 PM

90% (or greater) of Apple IIs in use from the early 80s through the late 80s (the height of their popularity, in my opinion) had the 80 column and/or 128k memory expansion. As I said, I never saw one without it.. In the late 70s? Heh. less than 10% of the software available for the platform dates to that period..

Yes, I agree.. Atari's 16/32bit line of personal computers were a piece of shit, and totally unworthy of being called successor to something as well designed as the Atari 8-bit.

And the XEP80 was (in essence) a video terminal that used your atari for keyboard...


Regardless of rather or not the 80 column card for the Apple was popular or not, is the Atari able to emulate it? It looks like it's just a text-only display, right? Can an XEP80 or similar be used to emulate the 80 column card?

Our family's first computer was a 1040ST and of course it had a fancier processor and fancier video than the 8-bit line but other than that, I'm not overly impressed. For some reason it seems to have a somewhat strong following too. I actually bought a 130XE just because it reminded me of the ST, yet I think it's a better computer :)


We weren't only trying to determine if it was standard in early 80s but whether it contributed to the government budget deficit...

I would agree with Metalguy that XEP80 is useless (too slow for emulating) and just an artificial imposition on the Atari-- doesn't really integrate into the Atari architecture that an Apple 80-column board does. I think there were some other 3rd party 80-column boards for Atari 800 early on. Then again, you could use a scrolling overscanned 40+ column display to emulate it using standard Atari or perhaps make some circuit to overclock the ANTIC 1.5X and overscan a 60-column display to 70 columns and 70 columns is sufficient for Apple's 80 column mode (70*8 = 560 and 80*7 = 560).

#25 bob1200xl OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:35 PM

Can you make the files into something I can use? Like an .atr? What is a .7z file?

Bob



I still want someone with an accelerated 8-bit Atari to try this.






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