A plea/statement/question to Homebrewers!

[Artlover]

** This is NOT an attack against anyone who produces/sells homebrews. Just wanted to make that clear before I get started. **

 

As a fan of classic Atari, I am continusouly disappointed by the fact that many choose to make their final non WIP/demo versions available only in cartridge form.

 

I have nothing against cartridges persay. I know some people dig it and accompaning fancy lables/boxes/mauals and all that. Most of the time, the stuff looks absolutly amazing and professional like Atari themselves did it. Great work. Not knocking it or the people that do it/want it. Nothing wong with that option being available for people who want it.

 

I'm not against paying for software either. Contributing to homebrew developers for spending their time supporting abandonded hardware isn't just fair, but more then deserved.

 

That said, there are a lot of homebrew games (especially for the 7800) I would love to have, and would be more then willing to pay a fair price for. The problem is however, I DON'T WANT A CARTRIDGE!

 

You see, the thing is, all my classic Atari gear is packed up, and will probably stay that way for the rest of my life. It's just too much of a hassle. Nor do I personally care about things like labels, boxes, etc.. I'm not a collector, I just care about playing the awesome games. To that end, I exclusively use emulation. Cart's do me no good. I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one. Sorry to say, but I'm not about to spend the higher price to buy a cart I can't readily use and packaging I don't want/need just to take it apart so I can dump the rom so I can play it. Even stores often give consumers the choice of generic cost reduced versions of products minus the fancy name-brand labeling/packaging for those who only care about the contents.

 

This is something that has kinda annoyed me in the homebrew scene - The catering to a specific audience of those using real hardware, ignoring the rest of the base and prospective clients where more often then not the only thing we can enjoy is an incomplete/demo version. It, for lack of a better word, sucks!

 

I'd be all over the 7800 Pac-Man Collection for example if I could buy it in non cart form minus the costs of cart, label, box and manual.

 

Why don't homebrewers allow for cost reduced rom-only releases for the rest of us in conjunction with the limited market cartridge packages for those using real hardware. I was tempted to say lost sales/piracy; but given the size of the market, the fact that many people using (or want to use) real hardware probably can't make their own carts, flashcarts are rare/expencive, and some people buying the carts could just dump them anyways, I can't see that as being a major issue?

 

So what about us, the emulators'? Why can't we too be allowed to enjoy the delicious fruits that hang above our heads so teasingly?

 

Could there be some consideration of maybe Al compiling a CD to be sold in the store containing final version roms of homebrew carts for emulation use?

 

Again, no offence meant to anyone. Just a questionative thought.

 

Comments?

[PacManPlus]

7800 Pac-Man Collection already is available to you; the last binary posted in that thread is the same one that's been made into a cartridge. That's how I do all of my games.

[Artlover]

7800 Pac-Man Collection already is available to you; the last binary posted in that thread is the same one that's been made into a cartridge.

Rushes to thread. <swoosh> {happy happy, joy joy}.

 

(Some reason, I thought I remember that not being the case. I'm old and my brain must not work none to good no more! )

 

That's how I do all of my games.

Very nice to hear.

[PacManPlus]

Sorry, should have posted the link:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112575

 

You have to scroll down a bit for the NTSC version.

[Vic George 2K3]

Personally, I'd want to play the finished ROM version of Opcode's Pac-Man Collection for the ColecoVision, but if he decides that's not how he wants to have it be distributed, then that's his prerogative. It may be disappointing (as not seeing an NTSC version of SNES Smurfs was to me), but gamers aren't given the divine right to have every single game available to them in any format they wish to have it on, whether it be on cartridge, CD-ROM, ROM files, or whatever.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Vic George 2K3

[darthkur]

Sorry, should have posted the link:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112575

 

You have to scroll down a bit for the NTSC version.

 

 

Nice. I didn't have that rom myself. I still want the cart though. Then again I am a collector and hoarder of many things.

[fiddlepaddle]

I like carts; something to hold and handle, something that will actually work with the original hardware. There is a validity and sense of permanence associated with anything that has a physical presence. Anything of pure virtual existence is just too easily forgotten, lost, or cavalierly tossed away to be taken seriously. This, I think, is the essence of collecting. I expect that anyone who takes the time and effort to create a complete game program, especially when the financial rewards are so small, has created art that they wish to be valued and cherished by those few who do appreciate it, and distributing it as a physical cartridge ensures some level of persistence. This is probably why it is so often done this way.

Edited October 27, 2008 by fiddlepaddle

[Atari2008]

I like carts; something to hold and handle, something that will actually work with the original hardware. There is a validity and sense of permanence associated anything that has a physical presence. Anything of pure virtual existence is just too easily forgotten, lost, or cavalierly tossed away to be taken seriously. This, I think, is the essence of collecting. I expect that anyone who takes the time and effort to create a complete game program, especially when the financial rewards are so small, has created art that they wish to be valued and cherished by those few who do appreciate it, and distributing it as a physical cartridge ensures some level of persistence. This is probably why it is so often done this way.

 

Agreed, and I like having them on cart form - the original format - so I can play on the original hardware. It's a nice fusion of past and present...new games on old technology.

[Atariman]

While I understand the idea behind wanting the ROMs and I don't blame you for wanting to do it through emulation (it really IS easier), I'd like to point out that by releasing it on a cart, it makes it just a little bit harder to pirate.

 

I understand that YOU don't want to pirate it and that you'd gladly pay the price for a legitimate ROM, but obviously not everyone would respect that. I'm sure there is more than one person who would gladly post the ROM somewhere else for others to enjoy for free - and then people could watch their creation get plundered.

 

And finally, I don't think it's that much to ask that you pull out your 2600 to play a game every once in awhile. If you want to play the homebrews that badly, you would break out the VCS and give it a little love from time to time. Play your emulators for everything else, give your Atari a little action when you want to play a homebrew.

 

You've got the hardware - it won't kill you to use it once in awhile!

[Chickybaby]

For me, there is a definite sense of satisfaction in having a tangible cart and I like the way fiddlepaddle explained it. But while I do want the carts, I don't care whether the games are boxed and being still sealed is lost on me since the whole point (at least personally) is to play the games. While I don't have any emulators, I do love the CCs so I can play the games I can't afford on actual hardware.

 

PacManPlus is awesome in that he works closely with the community and releases everything.

 

To Artlover, just curious but what games would you like to see the ROMS for that aren't available? Also, have you considered contacting those homebrewers who haven't released the ROMS to ask their opinions?

Hmm, Is there anyone else also in Artlovers boat who primarily use emulation to play the games?

So many questions, so little time. Interesting thread.

[+Random Terrain]

Seems like the pirates already have the equipment to dump a ROM, so all they have to do is buy the cartridge and they're ready to go. As Stella improves and once www.legacyengineer.com makes some paddles that will work with the PC, I'm not going to play games on a real Atari 2600 unless www.legacyengineer.com makes a new Atari 2600 clone that will give me a crystal clear picture. If I can have a shiny new Atari 2600 clone (not an old crusty modded Atari) that will work with modern TVs and the picture quality will be so good that it will make me cry, I'll be less likely to use emulation.

 

Even if my shiny new Atari 2600 clone becomes a reality, I still like being able to have a whole collection of ROMs on something like a Krok cart so I don't have to keep yanking out and shoving in cartridges. I always wanted one of those Select-A-Game thingies that could hold multiple cartridges and all I would have to do is press a button to select a different game. Having a ROM collection is even better than that. Although I like having cartridges and instruction manuals, I don't get tingly feelings from rubbing, licking, sniffing, or dry humping an Atari cartridge, so I can't relate to those who need to feel it in their hands and shove it in and pull it out of an Atari as if it's some kind of weird sexual act.

 

If pirates will get your ROM anyway since they have all of the necessary equipment, selling your game as a cartridge and as a ROM seems like a good idea. That way you get some money out of those who will never buy it on cartridge. If you see your ROM in a web site collection, send them a cease-and-desist letter and make it known to everyone that your ROM is for sale. Although it will be cheaper than a cart, it's not free.

[Artlover]

It may be disappointing (as not seeing an NTSC version of SNES Smurfs was to me), but gamers aren't given the divine right to have every single game available to them in any format they wish to have it on, whether it be on cartridge, CD-ROM, ROM files, or whatever.

It's not exactly like one is asking for something special to be created to satisfy a fringe group. It's asking that those already selling it also sell it in the form it already exists in. It's a work requirement of 0% (unlike carts) and would make people money for nothing.

 

While I understand the idea behind wanting the ROMs and I don't blame you for wanting to do it through emulation (it really IS easier), I'd like to point out that by releasing it on a cart, it makes it just a little bit harder to pirate.

I kinda touched on that already. Many a homebrew has been released where the final rom was freely avaiable, people still bought/buy the cart versions. Why, because as many people here have chimed in about, they like having real carts. Some people love real hardware more then others. Some are collectors. Given the small size of the market and who cart's specificly target, I don't see a rom option as being a threat to that market in any way. Flash carts are rare and expencive, so I don't see many trying to use this as a cheaper way to play on real hardware.

 

They aren't "that" much harder to pirate either given all one has to do is buy the cart (or borrow someone elses) and dump it.

 

Sure, one could post it to the internet I suppose. But given the above, would it impact sales? Blackmarket carts maybe. But making a cart is something outside the skill of many (more invovled and harder then dumping, thats for sure), and if one turned up, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to figure out who it was. Plus, I don't see why rom versions couldn't be "serialized" (imbedded in the code via a script utility or something) to make it easy to find out who the asshat was that released it and shun them from the community, amung other things.

 

I dunno, I just don't see the vintage cartridge console scene like 2600 or 7800 as being infested with the so called dirty rotten theiving pirates looking to steal the food out of the programmer's mouth. It's pretty niche and close nit. There is already more serious problems in the community like thou who shall not be named doing a byte hack of someone elses free byte hack, paying for so called professional logos that looked like ass (that people here could have done better and were willing to do so for free) and turning around trying to sell them for $95 a pop (some didn't even get the t-shirt).

 

And finally, I don't think it's that much to ask that you pull out your 2600 to play a game every once in awhile. If you want to play the homebrews that badly, you would break out the VCS and give it a little love from time to time. Play your emulators for everything else, give your Atari a little action when you want to play a homebrew.

 

You've got the hardware - it won't kill you to use it once in awhile!

Go climb up in my and attic, find which box it is and get it down for me.

 

 

To Artlover, just curious but what games would you like to see the ROMS for that aren't available? Also, have you considered contacting those homebrewers who haven't released the ROMS to ask their opinions?

Off the top of my head. B*nQ & Beefdrop. From what I've gathered in researching these, the cart versions are slightly different (more so with Beef Drop) and it was already asked earlier this year if rom versions could be bought. Answer was no.

[Lord Helmet]

I'm moving further and further away from carts. I used to buy them all the time, but now I find myself running out of room. I'd love the option to buy the .bin, or have it included with the cartridge. I use emulators on my PSP all the time and would like to be able to take ALL of my games with me.

[mos6507]

My feeling is that after a homebrew goes through its initial salescurve that the BIN should be put up for download. Like maybe 6-12 months after it gets put into the store. That's kind of a happy compromise between never putting up the BIN and putting it up immediately. That way if the BIN actually does kill sales, the impact will be minimized. Those who wait around for the BIN probably were never interested enough to buy it in the first place.

[Snider-man]

My feeling is that after a homebrew goes through its initial salescurve that the BIN should be put up for download. Like maybe 6-12 months after it gets put into the store. That's kind of a happy compromise between never putting up the BIN and putting it up immediately. That way if the BIN actually does kill sales, the impact will be minimized. Those who wait around for the BIN probably were never interested enough to buy it in the first place.

 

 

Good answer. When a cart is initially released, nothing irritates me more than the multiple "Yeah, yeah, very nice. So, wherez da romz?" posts that pop up. The usual answer from those folks is that they want to try before they buy. Understandable. But if a BIN is released at the same time as the cart, I do feel it kills those initial sales somewhat. (And it's been mentioned that the pirates would love to get a new BIN, toss it on cart, then undercut the cart's selling price here at AA as well as cut the author out of the equation.) But releasing a promo BIN that isn't the full version is also time-consuming for the 'brewer.

 

I agree that an eventual BIN release is nice - but should hardly be a requirement. Cart release then a BIN release several months down the road is fair enough for all, I think..

[Albert]

I agree that an eventual BIN release is nice - but should hardly be a requirement. Cart release then a BIN release several months down the road is fair enough for all, I think..

To be fair, the vast majority of homebrew binaries ARE released in one form or another. There are of course exceptions to this, but even for many of those the authors release demos that are nearly complete versions of the game.

 

..Al

[Snider-man]

I agree that an eventual BIN release is nice - but should hardly be a requirement. Cart release then a BIN release several months down the road is fair enough for all, I think..

To be fair, the vast majority of homebrew binaries ARE released in one form or another. There are of course exceptions to this, but even for many of those the authors release demos that are nearly complete versions of the game.

 

..Al

Indeed. Most AA-released homebrews have a BIN release here on the forum. I was kind of speaking in general terms about any and all homebrews, whether for 2600, 5200, Vectrex, Colecovision, or other systems, and whether here or on other forums. Not to belabor the point though.

[Albert]

Indeed. Most AA-released homebrews have a BIN release here on the forum. I was kind of speaking in general terms about any and all homebrews, whether for 2600, 5200, Vectrex, Colecovision, or other systems, and whether here or on other forums. Not to belabor the point though.

True, I don't pay as much attention to homebrews developed/released outside of AtariAge in terms of whether binaries are released.

 

..Al

[AtariLeaf]

I love having binaries to try games and my general rule of thumb is that if I spend any significant amount of time playing a binary that is being sold in cart form, I feel obligated to buy a cart. (I've been playing a LOT of "Incoming!" lately )

I think supporting the homebrewers financially is important even if they do it as a hobby. I'm not a programmer but I think its safe to assume that a lot of time went into these games and to put them on cart costs time and money too.

As an Atari fan, there is nothing like the feeling of getting a brand new game to play on an actual machine.

 

Hey Artlover, if I go into your attic, can I have your Atari stuff?

[Atariman]

Hey Artlover, if I go into your attic, can I have your Atari stuff?

 

*ssshhhhhhh* I'm already up here - what do you want?

[Artlover]

To be fair, the vast majority of homebrew binaries ARE released in one form or another. There are of course exceptions to this, but even for many of those the authors release demos that are nearly complete versions of the game.

"Nearly complete", but not.

 

Beyond testing/trial application, if a game is not complete, I see no reason to even start playing it at all. Since by nature of it being incomplete, it's not finished. Which means you spend your time playing and advancing only to hit a wall. - Thank you for playing for the last 2 hours, if you wish to see how the game ends, please buy the cart.

 

Another point is if it's intended to be cart only final release from the start, I question if demo roms should be avaialble at all in those cases. If you're not going to make a final product that is meant for me that I can use, then why provide me a trial? Now of course, I understand the reason of rom trials in todays world; everyone has access to emulators, including those with real hardware. But it is unfair because not everyone who has access to emulators has access to real hardware.

 

Are we not good-enough or something? It's not like we arn't Atari fans, aren't part of the scene, aren't willing to pay them for their efforts. Again, it's not like I'm suggesting they have to give final roms up for free or anything. Just make it a purchase option so it's available to everyone that it was advertised to. Emulator discrimination.

 

Hey Artlover, if I go into your attic, can I have your Atari stuff?

*ssshhhhhhh* I'm already up here - what do you want?

[shadow460]

do you have access to something with which to dump carts you have purchased? When I get a game I like to pop in a lot, I either dump it or grab a ROM to load up onto actual hardware. This could work with an emulator also, and you wouldn't need the console. although I usually use carts, sometimes it's easier for me to load up a ROM into the Supercharger or RAM cart than it is to go dig the correct cart out.

 

Bin files do have their place, though. without seeing the near complete versions of Beef Drop and b*nQ, I may not have purchased them in the first place. I also would have been more skeptical of the Pac Man and Asteroids variants that are out there. Having tried them, though, I know that certain programmers are releasing games I will enjoy, and I don't have to think about buying their games...I just send money.

[Artlover]

do you have access to something with which to dump carts you have purchased?

I touched on that as well.

 

A signifigant cost of a cartridge is the cartridge and packaging itself, not profit/royalties regarding it's contents - Is it not?

 

Why does my only choice have to be to buy something I dont need at a higher cost just to take what I want out of it? I mean, if I want to buy a resistor, I should beable to buy just a resistor, not have to buy a radio that has the resistor I need so I can remove it. Isn't this exactly the draw of modern services like LiveArcade and WiiWare? Cost reduced virtual content devoid of the extra costs of physical media manufacturing and packaging. Even many software companies do this - offering both boxed retail versions and paid downloadable versions at difference price points.

 

What is someone who old sells the final version as cart only getting out of it that they wouldn't be getting if they sold the final version as rom at lets say, a cost equal to what the cart sells for minus cart production costs?