Technical CV vs 5200

[philipj]

Nintendo graphics chip the "PPU or Picture Processing Unit" had 16kb of RAM to do all sorts of graphical stuff.

 

You sure the NES has that much memory? I thought it was more like 2K ram + 2K video ram.

 

I found this PDF the other day at a website address I can't recall at the moment, but according to what I remember reading is that the PPU use 16KB of memory exclusivly for video RAM divided in half, which implies that more seperate RAM is used for other purposes... 8KB for sprites and the other 8KB for background. If the 7800 had this feature available on the system with having the added to a cartridge, programmers would've had more flexibility becuase the temptation to pinch a penny/save a dollar is always there when it comes to making 7800 cartridges on a budget. Had the extra RAM, and Pokey, been there in the first place, then adding even more RAM to a cartridge would've been a bonus option for the 7800 programmers of that time then there would've been nothing to keep the 7800 from flurishing depending on the game maker.

 

The 7800's TIA is a peripheral chip, not a processor.

 

Man that's too bad... The Maria would've made an excellent processor as fast as it is. I see I still have a great deal of reading to do for the 7800.

NESDoc.pdf

Edited March 20, 2009 by philipj

[Gorf]

Nintendo graphics chip the "PPU or Picture Processing Unit" had 16kb of RAM to do all sorts of graphical stuff.

 

You sure the NES has that much memory? I thought it was more like 2K ram + 2K video ram.

 

I found this PDF the other day at a website address I can't recall at the moment, but according to what I remember reading is that the PPU use 16KB of memory exclusivly for video RAM divided in half, which implies that more seperate RAM is used for other purposes... 8KB for sprites and the other 8KB for background. If the 7800 had this feature available on the system with having the added to a cartridge, programmers would've had more flexibility becuase the temptation to pinch a penny/save a dollar is always there when it comes to making 7800 cartridges on a budget. Had the extra RAM, and Pokey, been there in the first place, then adding even more RAM to a cartridge would've been a bonus option for the 7800 programmers of that time then there would've been nothing to keep the 7800 from flurishing depending on the game maker.

 

The 7800's TIA is a peripheral chip, not a processor.

 

Man that's too bad... The Maria would've made an excellent processor as fast as it is. I see I still have a great deal of reading to do for the 7800.

 

 

Maria IS a processor. It's not a CPU. It's sole purpose is to read a list of graphical instructions and

interpret them to its line buffers, which in turn are rastered to the screen. This takes the burden

off the Sally(the 6502 CPU, the ONLY CPU in the 7800, as CPU denotes Central Processing Unit)

so it can do more IO, AI and game logic. Otherwise you'd need a ram buffer and the Sally would have

to spend time drawing the screen too. The TIA is sound, timers and user input.

 

So there is only one 'thinker' in the 7800 where as opposed to a Genny that uses a 68k and a z-80, where

the 68k is the CPU and the Z-80( which by its own right is a CPU) is but a mere sound support processor

for genny games. I believe it also uses the z80 for backward compatibility with SMS games when using

the power base converter? Someone?...At any rate......the z-80 may have also been used for other tasks

but I cant say for sure.

[DracIsBack]

Nintendo graphics chip the "PPU or Picture Processing Unit" had 16kb of RAM to do all sorts of graphical stuff.

 

You sure the NES has that much memory? I thought it was more like 2K ram + 2K video ram.

 

I found this PDF the other day at a website address I can't recall at the moment, but according to what I remember reading is that the PPU use 16KB of memory exclusivly for video RAM divided in half, which implies that more seperate RAM is used for other purposes... 8KB for sprites and the other 8KB for background. If the 7800 had this feature available on the system with having the added to a cartridge, programmers would've had more flexibility becuase the temptation to pinch a penny/save a dollar is always there when it comes to making 7800 cartridges on a budget. Had the extra RAM, and Pokey, been there in the first place, then adding even more RAM to a cartridge would've been a bonus option for the 7800 programmers of that time then there would've been nothing to keep the 7800 from flurishing depending on the game maker.

 

The 7800's TIA is a peripheral chip, not a processor.

 

Man that's too bad... The Maria would've made an excellent processor as fast as it is. I see I still have a great deal of reading to do for the 7800.

 

Interesting. This is what is on Wikipedia:

 

The NES uses a custom-made picture processing unit (PPU) developed by Ricoh. The version of the processor used in NTSC models of the console, named the RP2C02, operates at 5.37 MHz, while the version used in PAL models, named the RP2C07, operates at 5.32 MHz.^[41] Both the RP2C02 and RP2C07 output composite video.^[40] Special versions of the NES's hardware designed for use in video arcades use other variations of the PPU. The PlayChoice-10 uses the RP2C03, which runs at 5.37 MHz and outputs RGB video at NTSC frequencies. Two different variations were used for Nintendo Vs. Series hardware: the RP2C04 and the RP2C05. Both of these operate at 5.37 MHz and output RGB video at NTSC frequencies. Additionally, both use irregular palettes to prevent easy ROM swapping of games.^[42] All variations of this PPU feature 256 bytes of on-die sprite position / attributable RAM ("OAM") and 28 bytes of on-die palette RAM to allow selection of background and sprite colors. This memory is stored on separate buses internal to the PPU. The console's 2 KB of onboard RAM may be used for tile maps and attributes on the NES board, and 8 KB (8 × 2¹⁰ bytes) of tile pattern ROM or RAM may be included on a cartridge. Using bank switching, virtually any amount of additional cartridge memory can be used, limited only by manufacturing costs.^[40]

 

The system has an available color palette of 48 colors and 5 grays. Red, green, and blue can be individually darkened at specific screen regions using carefully timed code. Up to 25 colors may be used on one scanline: a background color, four sets of three tile colors, and four sets of three sprite colors. This total does not include color de-emphasis.^[40]

 

A total of 64 sprites may be displayed onscreen at a given time without reloading sprites mid-screen. Sprites may be either 8 pixels by 8 pixels, or 8 pixels by 16 pixels, although the choice must be made globally and it affects all sprites. Up to eight sprites may be present on one scanline, using a flag to indicate when additional sprites are to be dropped. This flag allows the software to rotate sprite priorities, increasing maximum amount of sprites, but typically causing flicker.^[40]

 

The PPU allows only one scrolling layer, though horizontal scrolling can be changed on a per-scanline basis. More advanced programming methods enable the same to be done for vertical scrolling.^[40]

 

The standard display resolution of the NES is 256 horizontal pixels by 240 vertical pixels. Typically, games designed for NTSC-based systems had an effective resolution of only 256 by 224 pixels, as the top and bottom 8 scanlines are not visible on most television sets. For additional video memory bandwidth, it was possible to turn off the screen before the raster reached the very bottom.^[40]

 

Video output connections varied from one model of the console to the next. The original Japanese Famicom featured only radio frequency (RF) modulator output. When the console was released in North America and Europe, support for composite video through RCA connectors was added in addition to the RF modulator. The AV Famicom dropped the RF modulator entirely and adopted composite video output via a proprietary 12-pin "multi-out" connector first introduced for the Super Famicom / Super Nintendo Entertainment System. Conversely, the North American re-released NES 2 most closely resembled the original model Famicom, in that it featured RF modulator output only.^[27] Finally, the PlayChoice-10 utilized an inverted RGB video output.

[Gorf]

Nintendo graphics chip the "PPU or Picture Processing Unit" had 16kb of RAM to do all sorts of graphical stuff.

 

You sure the NES has that much memory? I thought it was more like 2K ram + 2K video ram.

 

 

This according to Marat Fayzullin someone who should know...

 

It looks like 2k bytes CPU RAM mirrored four times. NES can have additional RAM on cart.

From what I can tell the PPU VRAM is just a bunch of registers.

 

http://fms.komkon.org/EMUL8/NES.html#LABC

[Gorf]

Well, I never did say that the CV pounds the 7800- I merely said that, compared to the CV or 5200, the 7800 did not seem to be that much better.

 

In some respects its not.

 

For example, I know that no way can the CV give you an equally good version of Desert Falcon- but it probably can give you

a good enough one, if the 2-color/space/line limitation was observed. I'd guess the same for the 5200, too. And not-as-colorful

enemies.

 

The scrolling would be choppier on the CV without serious trickery and you'd need to double sprites to achive reasonable color.

So that means 2 multi colored sprites per line.

 

 

The problem is, while- thanks to Opcode- we are learning more about what a CV can do, there is no such programmer for the 7800.

 

I think you unwittingly slight folks like PacManPlus and others that have done amazing arcade perfect translations

for the 7800.

 

The NES had its limits pushed to the fullest (Japanese way), but not the 7800.

And therein lies the problem I'm having here with all of this.

 

For example, scrolling. Just which system could do it better? Tower Toppler for the 7800 seemed as good as anything I've seen on the NES. Could Sirius have looked better, just as CV Burgertime did not have to have so much flickering? Was it system limitation, or programmer (or time, or budget) limitation?

 

On-screen movement? Judging by the flickering in Bubble Bobble for the NES, probably the 7800 (fairly simple playfield).

 

Programming is paramount. The hardware is important but the 2600 shows just how far you can go with genious coders behind the wheel.

However, as we all know, budget and time get in the way of genious all the time.

 

But would that have changed on a complex background? Maybe the 7800 could do a better version of Asteroids or Space Duel (simple background), but not so a game like Lifeforce?

 

You can list how they do things differently (the 7800 "everything is an object"), but for the final result, which comes out on top? If you list the color and resolution of the CV and 5200 individually, the 5200 comes out `way ahead, until you combine those features- then, much of that advantage is lost. So it's not just individual attributes, it's a combination in many cases.

If one merely goes by the 4-sprite/line limit of the CV, for example, then one can only conclude that a version of Ms. Pac-Man, with all multi-colored characters, would have an intolerable amount of flickering and disappearances. But we all know that this is NOT the case, because the CV has speed to make up for most of this.

 

 

The Maria chip alone is a monster. It has the potential to easily outdo even the NES's PPU

in may areas. It's lack of memory is the main thing holding it back. Then CPU time is the next

bottle neck. Maria in a slightly different system would be amazing. It is most likely also choked

by the need for 2600 compatibility.

 

I myself did not believe the kind of scrolling in Matt Patrol. If the green hills were "molded" to look like the Lunar City, but were never higher than the hills were, could that have worked? If far away enough from the edges, could more colors have been used? Just how good a version could it have been? Stagger the sprites on two of the UFOs, and you'd not have any more flickering.

 

In other words, in any comparison, one system may have it over the other, until another factor is required (complex background?), in which case the advantage is lost. But which is it?

 

 

The trouble with the CV is most of its video hardware is what it is. Sprite needs bigger than 8x8 or 16 x 16 are going to require

several sprites. Say you need 8 32x 32 sprites. That gives you 8 sprites max before recyling them for more per frame. There is

a lot of code and timing involved once you start recyling sprites.

 

I can put up 64+ on the 7800 just by writing a list. None recycled and anysize I desire from 8 pixels to 256 pixels wide.

 

The Maria with its objects is just superior in terms of thier flexibility.

Those object do not need special attention to get more than 4 on one

scan line or to be multicolored.

 

Its huge advantage...believe me. The trouble is the sytem RAM limits it abilities to really shine.

A good 16k RAM on cart would open upa serious amount of possibilities on the 7800.

the CV's graphics chip would not benefit directly from additional RAM on cart, where the 7800 would

since the Maria can access just about any address for RAM. The Lists still need to use the built in

4k ram due to a signal not present on the cart but 4k list ram is huge when you have a bank on the cart.

 

Incidently- was that version of Xevious the best a 5200 can do? Surely not!

 

I'd have to take a look again but I am sure it could have been done better.

 

 

Just go take a look at my screen shots of my version of Gorf for the 7800 and compare them to the CV version.

It would be very hard to match the detail on the CV. On the 7800, there is not one flicker ever on any mission

level screen.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Gorf

[philipj]

Interesting. This is what is on Wikipedia:

 

I found the PDF from http://nesdev.parodius.com/ this website that's been around for some time now so I assumed they're knowledgable about the NES. The site claims that the PDF was composited by some individual(s) who created NES emulators. I haven't read the PDF all the way through, but I found out what I needed to know concerning the PPU in comparison to the 7800. The Maria moves roughly at about 7+megahertz which is slightly faster then the NES, which means the 7800 could've easily smoked the NES graphic wise under better circumstances if the hardware was designed a little better.

 

I haven't played the CV much so I don't know a lot about it like I should. I just thought it to be interesting to know

 

So there is only one 'thinker' in the 7800 where as opposed to a Genny that uses a 68k and a z-80, where

the 68k is the CPU and the Z-80( which by its own right is a CPU) is but a mere sound support processor

for genny games. I believe it also uses the z80 for backward compatibility with SMS games when using

the power base converter? Someone?...At any rate......the z-80 may have also been used for other tasks

but I cant say for sure.

 

I think if the Genesis processors were to switch roles from a graphical stand-point, where the Z80 were to do the graphics and the 68K was to be free to be programmed to do other things, the speed of the Motorola leaves a little leverage for some extra processing activities beyond mediocore 2D graphics thus I wish it were possible for the 7800 where the Maria can function like a CPU and the Sally a graphics processor. Considering what the Z80 did for the Sinclair, in which I never really owned but have seen lots of graphic demos on youtube, the payoff would be in focusing the slowest processor to do the graphics and AI while the fastest processor be used to back-up the slow processors graphical capabilities with extra processing activities. Now that's what I call "Blast Processing."

[CV Gus]

Interesting.

 

Sorry, PacmanPlus- yours is an awesome Super Pac-Man! But why are screenshots of 7800 games always so bad looking?

 

CV Gorf was by no means the best a CV could do. Many 1983 games were clearly rushed out; just look at Victory. Bleah. The 1982 games were, overall, of better quality. But the 7800 could no doubt handle the motion better: that was its strength. Still, the CV could've had a much better version. As for Centipede, for example: I myself designed better-looking mushrooms, and they do follow the rules.

 

But again, what about a complex scrolling background? What were the weaknesses of the NES and 7800 (aside from sound)?

 

For the 7800: THE %@#$&*!! TRAMIELS!

[DracIsBack]

But why are screenshots of 7800 games always so bad looking?

 

Often taken on emulators instead of the real thing.

[Rodrigo]

I agree with DracIsBack. These days I've just browsed http://www.virtualapple.org/, and I can say Apple II software graphics looked uglier than the real thing (computer using a TV instead monitor). I also searched for any reviews in Youtube wich used a real TV set for 7800, but there are very few (like

, so we can conclude that they used emulators for the most, and so did with the screenshots that exists, resulting in ugly images.

[Heaven/TQA]

I might be late here... but the g2f pics are not using any selfmodifying code which then would be ram relevant...so there should be not a major efford to have them in ROM.

 

 

 

I like some of the images here - they show off what the 5200 could show in terms of BG graphics

 

http://g2f.atari8.info/gallery.html

 

Egad, man! I could live a long, happy life without seeing those Simpsons sex pictures on the Atari 5200. Yikes!

 

Also, I'm not entirely convinced that the Atari 5200 could handle graphics of that caliber. Those pictures were created on an XE computer, correct? That system has a lot more memory than the 5200, and that makes a big difference.

 

Normal highres is less than 8k - even with all the extra data in a g2f picture I'm sure it would be less than 16k - and the 5200 has 32k rom ( without banking ) as well

[JamesD]

I agree with DracIsBack. These days I've just browsed http://www.virtualapple.org/, and I can say Apple II software graphics looked uglier than the real thing (computer using a TV instead monitor). I also searched for any reviews in Youtube wich used a real TV set for 7800, but there are very few (like

, so we can conclude that they used emulators for the most, and so did with the screenshots that exists, resulting in ugly images.

The Apple depended on color artifacting for it's older hi-res graphics modes and it's difficult to really duplicate accurately. Different dot patterns could generate more colors than advertised.

 

I always thought the 7800 looked real good. One question.... are all it's sounds as annoying as that video?

[Gorf]

CV Gorf was by no means the best a CV could do.

 

It could not get much better as the hardware does not allow for multi color sprites.

In fact it would be a coding night mare. You can pull off Astro Battles as the invaders

are only one color each, you can just get away with it in Lazer Attack....maybe.

In the Galaxian mission you are going to have serious trouble getting 25 multi color

object for the galaxians. The galaxians are 3 colors each. That means you will need

3x24 sprites, or 72 sprites or 2.25 time more sprites than the hardware can do.

Then you need to place the sprites so there are never more than four on the

same line.

 

The 7800 needs but a simple list. It also has more colors to choose from and 8

palletes to draw from.

 

Do do the sparkling shields and warp lines would be close to impossible on the coleco.

It could be faked but you'd be able to tell it's not right.

 

The 7800 with extra RAM on cart would do this easily.

 

Many 1983 games were clearly rushed out;

 

As were most 7800 titles. Im not talking about what they actually did but what

the systems actually can do and the trouble it would take on either.

 

But again, what about a complex scrolling background? What were the weaknesses of the NES and 7800 (aside from sound)?

 

NES was wired for side scolling games seeing that Mario would be the main attraction of that console.

It's weak in the flicker department. The other thing about it is the lack of crispness in games with moving

backdrops and lots of forground objects.

 

The 7800 video output is the cleanest and the least flicker free of the three.

CV and NES are not really as clean and the artifacting is pretty apparent on

both.

 

The CV is a bit cleaner in the sprite department but NES is a bit less obvious

in the artifacting department. The lower rez on the 7800, though slightly blockier,

has the advantage of practically no artifacting as the practical horizontal resolution

of an old school TV is 160 pixels.

 

I never tried but I'd like to add composite video out to all three units to see how they

compare using todays hi res tv sets.

[Gorf]

I always thought the 7800 looked real good. One question.... are all it's sounds as annoying as that video?

 

No, they dont have to be. Keep in mind that the 7800 relies only on the 2600 sound system. At very least,

Atari was wise enough to allow cart added POKEYs to overcome this limit. The POKEY should have been

put on the motherboard and keep the ability to add more out on the cart.

 

The 7800 has the most potential to reproduce most of the arcade stuff, dead on. The advantage here is

that the system cost less and the games can determine any extra needed hardware such as RAM or sound

chips. The big difference is the 7800 Maria can access all of that ram as sprite data.

 

I think the NES does allow some expansion of the video system as well but not sure how dramatic.

 

 

On that hope for 7800 expansion key board....

 

Instead of just a 7800 keyboard, it should be a unit with a POKEY onboard, 16k dedicated Maria expansion

RAM, and a small slot for adding additional hardware, like more POKEYs. Of course all the other goods like

the SIO port and BASIC and what have you too.

[+Allan]

The keyboard uses the controller port to communicate with the 7800 so I don't know how much you can add on the keyboard beyond what is there already. It would have been nice if the 2600 adapter for the 5200 fit in the 7800 cartridge port because then you could have designed a huge 7800 cart with lots of RAM, a Pokey, BASIC, an Assembler and maybe other stuff all on one big board and stuff it in a 2600 adapter. You could still make a big cart but you just wouldn't have a nice case for it. Luckily the keyboard can use the Atari 1050 disc drives so you can write any software to be disc loaded. So maybe just a cart with a pokey, lots of RAM and maybe BASIC would be enough.

 

Of course this is all academic without the keyboard. Hopefully someday Curt can make it happen. I've got my fingers crossed. It would be great if someone could emulate the keyboard to work with one of the 7800 emulators. I'm not sure if that's possible without Curt dumping the software that's in the keyboard though.

 

Allan

[CV Gus]

[

CV Gorf was by no means the best a CV could do.

 

The CV could not get much better as the hardware does not allow for multi color sprites.

In fact it would be a coding night mare. You can pull off Astro Battles as the invaders

are only one color each, you can just get away with it in Lazer Attack....maybe.

In the Galaxian mission you are going to have serious trouble getting 25 multi color

object for the galaxians. The galaxians are 3 colors each. That means you will need

3x24 sprites, or 72 sprites or 2.25 time more sprites than the hardware can do.

Then you need to place the sprites so there are never more than four on the

same line.

 

The 7800 needs but a simple list. It also has more colors to choose from and 8

palletes to draw from.

 

Do do the sparkling shields and warp lines would be close to impossible on the coleco.

It could be faked but you'd be able to tell it's not right.

The 7800 with extra RAM on cart would do this easily.

 

 

Well, first of all, there would be the Space Invaders screen. We KNOW that the CV version could have been better than THAT. Sparkling shield? Problem, maybe, but that is not too important. The whole round looked like it was programmed by someone who had never seen the game. Just look at Space Invaders Collection, in any case.

 

Laser Attack- By using "stacking," certainly the Laser ships, and "badmitton birdies" could look better. If you don't mind a bit of fading, so could the Gorf robots, a-la Pac Man Collection.

 

Galaxian phase- Ever see the Atarisoft version?

 

Space Warp- Looks great as is, but yes, it could have looked more like arcade version. Including the lines. One did not expect perfection in those days.

 

Flagship- Again, it could have looked more like the arcade version. It looked again like whoever did it had not seen the arcade version.

[slampam]

I believe thay were working on it and a prototype may exist, I just run an NTSC one now as I have with most my systems. No boarders and about 20% faster.

20% faster? Why?

 

That would suck for PAL.

 

Pitfall & K-Razy Shootout don't work on the 2-port because the bios checks for PAL. Must be a reason Atari did that (not just to slight Activision).

[HARMIK]

I believe thay were working on it and a prototype may exist, I just run an NTSC one now as I have with most my systems. No boarders and about 20% faster.

20% faster? Why?

 

That would suck for PAL.

 

Pitfall & K-Razy Shootout don't work on the 2-port because the bios checks for PAL. Must be a reason Atari did that (not just to slight Activision).

 

 

Thats why I now use NTSC systems for all my old units Intellivision, Colecovision , Sega Master System, Mega Drive ect once you look at the two side by side you will hate Pall versions, it had to do with the TVs back in the day not being able to run at 60Htz. Now I run them on Sony 21" CRTs that auto switch to NTSC.

[Gorf]

The keyboard uses the controller port to communicate with the 7800 so I don't know how much you can add on the keyboard beyond what is there already. It would have been nice if the 2600 adapter for the 5200 fit in the 7800 cartridge port because then you could have designed a huge 7800 cart with lots of RAM, a Pokey, BASIC, an Assembler and maybe other stuff all on one big board and stuff it in a 2600 adapter. You could still make a big cart but you just wouldn't have a nice case for it. Luckily the keyboard can use the Atari 1050 disc drives so you can write any software to be disc loaded. So maybe just a cart with a pokey, lots of RAM and maybe BASIC would be enough.

 

Of course this is all academic without the keyboard. Hopefully someday Curt can make it happen. I've got my fingers crossed. It would be great if someone could emulate the keyboard to work with one of the 7800 emulators. I'm not sure if that's possible without Curt dumping the software that's in the keyboard though.

 

Allan

 

Exactly. Dont use the expander port. Use the cart slot. Add everything in a top loading device. Something like the O2 Voice module

or the Basic module does. Put all key board ports and SIO's and what have you's in a cart based device. It does not have to mount

on the top, I'd like to see it an add-under. Nowadays you can fit some impresive powerful stuff in a very small area.

 

Something along the lines of the size of the AppleTV box, just more suited to the dimensions of the 7800.

The Maria chip makes the 7800 worth upgrading. There is a lot of untapped potential in there and the right

add-on can turn it into the ultimate classic arcade device.

[Gorf]

Well, first of all, there would be the Space Invaders screen. We KNOW that the CV version could have been better than THAT. Sparkling shield? Problem, maybe, but that is not too important. The whole round looked like it was programmed by someone who had never seen the game. Just look at Space Invaders Collection, in any case.

 

More than that, there is no Gorf sptting out the invaders....very important.

 

I already said the AstroBattles mission could look dead on minus the shield

sparkle(also very important.)

 

The look is important. The 7800 shield would sparkle and I can now do it even more closer

to the original using extra cart RAM as a screen buffer. The other thing is the lack of sparkle

on the stars in the CV version.

 

 

Laser Attack- By using "stacking," certainly the Laser ships, and "badmitton birdies" could look better. If you don't mind a bit of fading, so could the Gorf robots, a-la Pac Man Collection.

 

Galaxian phase- Ever see the Atarisoft version?

 

When diving in groups the enemies lose there multi colorness(a new word? )

 

But it is probably the best version out there. The sounds are much better.

I for one never liked the 5200/8 bit version. I think the coleco shines on this.

However, it's still alot of work to make a game like this on the CV.

 

Space Warp- Looks great as is, but yes, it could have looked more like arcade version. Including the lines.

One did not expect perfection in those days.

 

Perfection no, but a best attempt and not a rush job would have been nice.

I certainly wanted the games to be dead on if it were at all possible.

 

Flagship- Again, it could have looked more like the arcade version. It looked again like whoever did it had not seen the arcade version.

 

 

You would have a hell of a time pulling off the big explosion. Sure you could do it but its a lot of work.

 

My point of all this is that the 7800 would handle it without any special tricks and would take little time to

develop. I had all five missions running on the 7800 in a matter of a week. I could probably finish it up

in a month of straight coding. The CV version would be a lot more work and still miss the mark in places

the 7800 would have no trouble doing naturally.

[JamesD]

Is this actually a CV vs 5200 thread or a 7800 kicks everything's butt thread?

[CV Gus]

Well, first of all, there would be the Space Invaders screen. We KNOW that the CV version could have been better than THAT. Sparkling shield? Problem, maybe, but that is not too important. The whole round looked like it was programmed by someone who had never seen the game. Just look at Space Invaders Collection, in any case.

 

More than that, there is no Gorf sptting out the invaders....very important.

 

I already said the AstroBattles mission could look dead on minus the shield

sparkle(also very important.)

 

The look is important. The 7800 shield would sparkle and I can now do it even more closer

to the original using extra cart RAM as a screen buffer. The other thing is the lack of sparkle

on the stars in the CV version.

 

 

Laser Attack- By using "stacking," certainly the Laser ships, and "badmitton birdies" could look better. If you don't mind a bit of fading, so could the Gorf robots, a-la Pac Man Collection.

 

Galaxian phase- Ever see the Atarisoft version?

 

When diving in groups the enemies lose there multi colorness(a new word? )

 

But it is probably the best version out there. The sounds are much better.

I for one never liked the 5200/8 bit version. I think the coleco shines on this.

However, it's still alot of work to make a game like this on the CV.

 

Space Warp- Looks great as is, but yes, it could have looked more like arcade version. Including the lines.

One did not expect perfection in those days.

 

Perfection no, but a best attempt and not a rush job would have been nice.

I certainly wanted the games to be dead on if it were at all possible.

 

Flagship- Again, it could have looked more like the arcade version. It looked again like whoever did it had not seen the arcade version.

 

 

You would have a hell of a time pulling off the big explosion. Sure you could do it but its a lot of work.

 

My point of all this is that the 7800 would handle it without any special tricks and would take little time to

develop. I had all five missions running on the 7800 in a matter of a week. I could probably finish it up

in a month of straight coding. The CV version would be a lot more work and still miss the mark in places

the 7800 would have no trouble doing naturally.

 

 

Astro Battle- Well, as I remembered it, the stars weren't there in the arcade version , screen one. Blue screen. The CV version actually would have looked better without those stars...why could the invaders have not been drawn to look like the arcade ones? No stars, plus that, would've been a tremendous improvement. As for the giant Gorf robot- why not a stationary, or even moving, charcater spitting out one sprite at a time, quickly?

 

Laser Attack- No, no,nonono, for "stacking" I meant sprites. This is when you "stack" one sprite on top of another for a multi-colored effect, like the enemy soldiers in Front Line. Since, in this case, the enemies did not tilt, this might work. 2 colors/enemy using this, it would be within the 32 limit. Granted, the Gorf robots, this would not work; you'd either have to leave them single-colored, or settle for fading when several line up.

 

Galaxian- Yes, one might have to accept the loss of multi-colored features in a diving attackers. But the formation would look good, and you certainly wouldn't need 70+ sprites to make the whole thing work, as you suggested. Curious thing- even the C-64 version didn't have that screen.

 

Sparkling shields- I assume that's due to the 2 color/line/space limit? A pseudo-sparkle could be set up: if a space had blue and white on a line, one or two of the white dots could be turned to blue, in different ways (so it's not 1-2-1-2-1-2, but more like 1-2-3-2-1-2-3). Not perfect, but again, better than straightforward solid.

 

You're right about it not being a perfect translation, but it could have been a helluvalot closer than it was. And don't forget; the 7800 was a system for after the 5200, which was meant to go up against the CV. Therefore, it would be a third-generation system against a fourth-generation system. The question was: if the CV version was close enough, would a somewhat better 7800 version have mattered? I was not too impressed by the 7800 Robotron against the 5200 version; likewise Ms. Pac-Man.

 

By the way- why were the colors used for the 5200 Ms. Pac-Man, esp. in maze 3, what they were? If there were 256 colors to choose from, couldn't the programmers have come up with something more like the arcade version? Or was there a limitation?

 

A problem was that the CV and 5200 did things differently, so it was hard to say which was better. Clearly, it depended on what game you were talking about, and what that game required. It would be interesting to see what an Opcode-programmed version of Robotron: 2084 or Qix would look like on a CV.

 

For a CV Centipede- can anyone replace the standard mushrooms with this for a screenshot?

 

012345678

1***PP***

2**PPPP**

3*bbbbbb*

4PbbbbbbP

5PPPPPPPP

6***bb***

7***bb***

8***bb***

 

And of course, the player's gun could have been 2-colored, too...

Edited March 25, 2009 by CV Gus

[Gorf]

Astro Battle- Well, as I remembered it, the stars weren't there in the arcade version , screen one. Blue screen. The CV version actually would have looked better without those stars...why could the invaders have not been drawn to look like the arcade ones? No stars, plus that, would've been a tremendous improvement. As for the giant Gorf robot- why not a stationary, or even moving, charcater spitting out one sprite at a time, quickly?

 

The CV can do the Astro Battles level almost arcade perfect.The shield MIGHT be able to be pulled off with

the use of character graphics. The quick erasing of

 

 

Laser Attack- No, no,nonono, for "stacking" I meant sprites. This is when you "stack" one sprite on top of another for a multi-colored effect

 

I knew what you meant.

 

 

For a CV Centipede- can anyone replace the standard mushrooms with this for a screenshot?

 

Not ever coding the coleco, I cant really answer. Im sure there are ways to do this.

 

Again the coleco can do it but it willbe a lot of work and a lot of planning. It will lack

with the sparkle mostly due to its lack of color. The 256 colors of the 7800 make for

easy sparkle effects. This would be tough on a CV. The vertical title screen scroll

would be smoother on the 7800 but could probably be done on the CV.

 

 

The Jaguar version we released was a painstakenly careful conversion. Take a look.

 

 

This is the only home version for a console with galaxian and we had a Gorf machine

to go by.

 

Someone redid Gorf for the C-64 with the galaxian screen but its not really that close to the look or feel.

[CV Gus]

Centipede- that was just curiosity, really. If the CV puts the mushrooms down as "tiles" or (as we C-64 folks would say) custom characters, then it could be done easily enough. It's just to see if a better-looking version could be done: if these mushrooms are easily to put in place of the regular ones, and the player's gun is made multi-colored (by "filling in" the eyes), then wouldn't it look very much better?

 

Gorf- Well, it does seem certain that the CV version could've been much better. Not exactly, of course (we accepted that), but still quite close. The voice synthesis would have been gone, sadly.

 

When I checked out that YouTube video you mentioned, I noticed "legal hassles" were mentioned there. I was afraid of that: when homebrewing first started, it was just a mickey mouse effort, with a few games. But now that it's picking up steam, and programmers are getting much better at it, we might start getting trouble. Maybe a new effort should be considered- maybe deals with companies that hold the rights to the games? How would that work? It seems as though this now has to be seriously considered.

Edited March 28, 2009 by CV Gus

[Crazyace]

I think that the 7800 version of Gorf ( written by Gorf ) would actually look pretty identical on the 5200 ( with some work ) - It's not using anything on the 7800 that isn't possible on the 5200 ( just more sprites )

[videogamesbook]

I'm biased toward the ColecoVision, so grain... salt....

 

"all CV games could be done on a 5200, but not the other way round"

 

All EXISTING CV games could be done on a 5200, but Coleco was experimenting with using real video backgrounds with superimposed computer characters in games with both the RCA LaserDisc and a type of vinyl storage device (cross between a vinyl 45 and a computer diskette). A ColecoVision console was used in developing this type of game a few years later because the chipset had this ability. Can't remember the exact name, ... Shark... something... Forget what system it was released on.

 

I have never heard any specs that said the 5200 could support video background images.

 

Unfortunately, it was just one of several missed CV opportunities.

 

I'd have liked the 5200 more if it had better controllers and more original titles. It was hard for me to justify another $40 to play the same game I had played for a year or more already, but nicer (Pac-Man, Breakout, Berzerk, Defender, Missile Command, Space Invaders, Star Raiders, etc). Seeing the same titles on the 5200 compared to all new titles on CV did make an impression on me.

 

A lot of the comparisons go back to what system you had before you got one of these two (or if you had one at all before) and what games you already had.

 

After being burned by the 2600 version of Pac-Man, I was ready to play Lady Bug or Mouse Trap instead.