atariksi Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 All the justification of C64 guys do not help. A8 is clearly superior in every detail, when it come to 3d/ego rendering. A half blind recognizes that the A8 is doing much more on the screen AND is clearly faster. Unless they follow the absurd logic that difference of opinion makes it subjective. So they are trying to create a difference of opinion. If you want to establish A8 sprites are as good as C64 sprites, you just have to create a difference of opinion then they become subjective. So they are just as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Hello again. Try not to... this time. You can get many possible Z80 games from Spanish Software Houses, like: OPERA SOFT, ZIGURAT, PROEIN, TOPO SOFT, POSITIVE, DROIEN. Many, if not almost had only Z80 versions released. CPC, ZX and MSX were the major ones on Spain. The distributors converted also almost all British games to MSX format only to Spain Market (O.K., all straight away/100% monochrome Zx ports). DINAMIC was the only major, and the one with all formats released. Another possibility it's French companies, they were based on THOMSON and CPCs: TITUS and our well wellknown INFOGRAMES. Many of their games weren't publish for C64. I remember to saw some games using 640Resol. CPC mode, and most of them the 320 4colours resolution, but probably we can find some with 160 16colour resolution. And by the way, as I remember from one of that English common Hit-Packs, CRAZY CARS were replaced by IRON HORSE (JACKAL?) on C64. José Pereira. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 You can get all Spanish games and complete maps at "computeremuzone.com". José Pereira. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Sorry, I'm here again. I found LIVIGSTONE 2 (OPERA SOFT - 1989) and the CPC graphics are great. On the Site above you can get the ZX map. CARLOS SAINZ RALLY(Cars) AND TOUR 91(Bikes) (Why not, no C64 version) Bye now, José Pereira. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Please, get serious. The emulation runs at double speed. At least the CPU speed gets doubled, but it doesn't help to get as accurate as the A8 version. Both versions share the same maths and because of that also are both as accurate as the other. The only difference is that the A8 version has twice the framerate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) No, because the turn speed is adjusted for the C64 otherwise the control response speed would be different and the game significantly harder to actually play. Any modified version that took advantage of extra hardware to speed the game up (REU for faster screen clearance, SuperCPU for a 65816, C128 in fast mode during the borders, C64DTV in "fast" mode or it's DMA for the screen clear) would all need the turns re-tuned to allow for that difference. Please, get serious. The emulation runs at double speed. At least the CPU speed gets doubled, but it doesn't help to get as accurate as the A8 version. Oh good grief... i am serious, but i'm honestly hoping you're not being serious right now. Read what you just said because there's two conflicting things there; the emulation runs at double speed but the CPU of the virtual C64 does not and they're two very different things; as far as the emulated machine is concerned, it's ticking over at it's normal speed, it still gets the same number of cycles per frame to render, still loses 40 cycles on a badline, everything works as normal - but the emulator is just going through the motions of processing a frame twice every 50th of a second rather than once. Speeding VICE up is not the same as adding a 2MHz 6510 to the machine. Possibly it is an emulation issue, but you mentioned to use it for a comparision. No, i mentioned slowing things down to be able to count frame refreshes off in order to highlight the fact that the game doesn't slow down during turns. i never mentioned comparing it to anything, just the refresh speed as it turns to when it's flying straight (you said they were different). Edited October 20, 2009 by TMR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (Why not, no C64 version) Spain was a massive territory for the Amstrad CPC, the Spectrum and the MSX (a huge Z80-based market essentially, with close to no 65xx players) so games tended to be developed for those platforms and only converted if they were going to be sold abroad; Dinamic's Army Moves for example was converted to the C64 by Ocean (coded by a Brit, don't tell frenchman!) A similar ecology existed in France where the local talent at companies like Titus or Loriciels were mostly Amstrad CPC people because that was the dominant machine, since it was a huge market that's where the bulk of the development francs went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun.Bebbington Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Only 451 pages so far? I am disappointed. You Atari guys should try harder BTW: I hope that you are having fun TMR, being a 65xx coder and all :-P Regards, Shaun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 ... Actually, this is sort of how the routines in ROF work. The world is broken up into a grid, and the grid points form the endpoints of the fractal lines. The game draws the fractal lines front to back in layers, into a sort-of Y-buffer. it then fills from the previous Y position from each column to this current one, only drawing the delta from the previous frame. The clipper uses a similar technique Loren used for REYES, where you sub-divide the line, culling parts which are totally off-screen and continuing to divide lines that have one end-point on-screen and one off-screen. This was done in 16-bit math, until the MSB hit zero, and then shifted to 8-bit math. BTW, I never thought I would be posting in this thread... --Selgus Do you have some inside info about ROF or what ? As I read about it, it was not such a big deal to produce graphic like that (its simple actually, 3d terrain was done before and after that...), but what was a big deal was how to make it run fast enough on 8-bit cpu that ran at 1-2 Mhz. So is that "sub-divide, culling, 16-bit math, msb = zero, shift to 8-bit" how Loren did it on 6502 ? And you could start a new topic in programming subforum, it would be interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 ... Actually, this is sort of how the routines in ROF work. The world is broken up into a grid, and the grid points form the endpoints of the fractal lines. The game draws the fractal lines front to back in layers, into a sort-of Y-buffer. it then fills from the previous Y position from each column to this current one, only drawing the delta from the previous frame. The clipper uses a similar technique Loren used for REYES, where you sub-divide the line, culling parts which are totally off-screen and continuing to divide lines that have one end-point on-screen and one off-screen. This was done in 16-bit math, until the MSB hit zero, and then shifted to 8-bit math. BTW, I never thought I would be posting in this thread... --Selgus Do you have some inside info about ROF or what ? As I read about it, it was not such a big deal to produce graphic like that (its simple actually, 3d terrain was done before and after that...), but what was a big deal was how to make it run fast enough on 8-bit cpu that ran at 1-2 Mhz. So is that "sub-divide, culling, 16-bit math, msb = zero, shift to 8-bit" how Loren did it on 6502 ? And you could start a new topic in programming subforum, it would be interesting I second that - more info on this would be great. It was a cool game, but I really doubt the routine is the unable to be duplicated God's gift to code that some make it out to be. Stephen Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) I know Ball Blazer was converted by Rainbow Arts as a semi-official Amiga version with that game sure, but Rescue on Fractalus/Koronis/Eidolon has nothing in common with the code of Ball Blazer. (...) No offence but I think Ball Blazer is rubbish, doesn't interest me at all anyway sorry. I'm not sure whether you got the point - that the RoF fractal engine has ben ported to a 16-bit machine. And which game uses it and which machine, as far as I know RoF is only rumoured to have been ported or attempted to be ported to 8086 and yet not one single piece of evidence for that has crossed my screen since a throwaway comment from the original team about it was made many years ago. I presume we are not talking about Ballblazer or Masterblazer here. Edited October 20, 2009 by oky2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 All the justification of C64 guys do not help. A8 is clearly superior in every detail, when it come to 3d/ego rendering. A half blind recognizes that the A8 is doing much more on the screen AND is clearly faster. Unless they follow the absurd logic that difference of opinion makes it subjective. So they are trying to create a difference of opinion. If you want to establish A8 sprites are as good as C64 sprites, you just have to create a difference of opinion then they become subjective. So they are just as good. I would be interested to see if the A8 PMs could produce the same graphics as in the C64 game Bangkok Knights. The two fighters are as large as the bobs on Sword of Sodan for the Amiga and pretty nicely animated too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMRGPOTDLE8 Probably all 8 sprites per fighter are used too as you need 6 expanded sprites already for them and in some areas there are four different colours too however you manoeuvre them over a 24x21 (48x42) pixel grid (3 being the max on each multicolour sprite). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kr0tki Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 And which game uses it and which machine, as far as I know RoF is only rumoured to have been ported or attempted to be ported to 8086 and yet not one single piece of evidence for that has crossed my screen since a throwaway comment from the original team about it was made many years ago. I've showed you already - Amiga Masterblazer, during the credits sequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 All the justification of C64 guys do not help. A8 is clearly superior in every detail, when it come to 3d/ego rendering. A half blind recognizes that the A8 is doing much more on the screen AND is clearly faster. Unless they follow the absurd logic that difference of opinion makes it subjective. So they are trying to create a difference of opinion. If you want to establish A8 sprites are as good as C64 sprites, you just have to create a difference of opinion then they become subjective. So they are just as good. I would be interested to see if the A8 PMs could produce the same graphics as in the C64 game Bangkok Knights. The two fighters are as large as the bobs on Sword of Sodan for the Amiga and pretty nicely animated too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMRGPOTDLE8 Probably all 8 sprites per fighter are used too as you need 6 expanded sprites already for them and in some areas there are four different colours too however you manoeuvre them over a 24x21 (48x42) pixel grid (3 being the max on each multicolour sprite). game seems to run in 50 fps? not bad... except for the samples... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 And which game uses it and which machine, as far as I know RoF is only rumoured to have been ported or attempted to be ported to 8086 and yet not one single piece of evidence for that has crossed my screen since a throwaway comment from the original team about it was made many years ago. I've showed you already - Amiga Masterblazer, during the credits sequence. Masterblazer (or Ballblazer) doesn't use Loren's fractal graphics though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 game seems to run in 50 fps? not bad... except for the samples... Not sure, it is either 25 or 50 but not lagging and the animation is quite good too. I was bored yesterday so was doing some Sword of Sodan C64 sprites quickly for the C64 and I notice this game has a similar size of main characters so was immediately impressed after my initial doodlings in the multicolour and expanded sprite restrictions. I wonder if that programmer had done Street Fighter 2 how it would have turned out...another game with only 2 main characters that are 50% screen height in the border area....hmmmm...I feel some more sprite designs coming on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) I just replied to your "coulda, shoulda, woulda". We will never know, so only hard facts remain the same. And what relation has your answer to my "coulda shoulda" discussion with TMR? You want to tell TMR that C64 counldn't do a 2-level Pitfall II only because they didn't do it back in 1984? It would be easier if you just read what had been written already, but I'll try again. Both versions of Pitfall II were made by different programmers at the same time. So, C64 programmers didn't know that Atari programmers made one additional level until the game was published. What's more even publisher didn't want that and demanded that the additional level be stripped from the official Atari version. In other words, we JUST DON"T KNOW if the C64 programmers "coulda, shoulda or woulda" made a longer version, because they simply didn't have a chance to do it. The International Karate was made by the same programmers at different time. First they made the better version for C64 and subsequently the same people made the worse version for ATARI. So they perfectly knew that the previous version had been better since it had been their own work. In this case we JUST KNOW that they did it for a reason (they had a chance to do it better and didn't), so we don't need any "coulda, shoulda, woulda". That's why it's a different story and I said it was a hard nut to crack. I couldn't write it any simpler, so If you still don't understand it, I can't help you. You don't see a joke when it hits you in the face, do you? You could as well say You said that joke about a giraffe that walks into a bar? Well you're WRONG, a giraffe is to tall to walk to a bar! Congratulations, then. You are very good at telling jokes. To be honest there are a lot of comedians on this forum, however, one more wouldn't hurt. Priceless. It sounds like you are watching too many ads on TV. Be careful, it could be dangerous. No, but I did and I wanted to place emphasis on it, since it's the essence (as I had mentioned previously) The essence of what? You came and showed that Atari IK is a bit worse than C64 one, then others say it could be made better, and you come back to say that "the essence is it's still worse". What's the point? Try moving the discussion further. Are you trying to move the discussion further ? how much further ? to what point ? Everything has been already said. We know that there are 2 versions, we know which one is better and why, heck, we even know about "shoulda, coulda, woulda "....thanks to you. Anyway, if you want to split hairs, feel free to do it, but don't count on me. Edited October 20, 2009 by Rockford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 49 - NAPOLEON IN RUSSIA C64 C64 The C64 version has better graphics in hi-res and more colours. The Atari version has ugly low-res graphics, which is especially painful, because it's a strategy-war game. C64 is better again. ATARI ATARI 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kr0tki Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Masterblazer (or Ballblazer) doesn't use Loren's fractal graphics though Listen, I'm tired of repeating myself. Just go and see the Masterblazer's credits sequence and stop acting like you don't understand simple sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kr0tki Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) And what relation has your answer to my "coulda shoulda" discussion with TMR? You want to tell TMR that C64 counldn't do a 2-level Pitfall II only because they didn't do it back in 1984? It would be easier if you just read what had been written already, but I'll try again. Both versions of Pitfall II were made by different programmers at the same time. So, C64 programmers didn't know that Atari programmers made one additional level until the game was published. What's more even publisher didn't want that and demanded that the additional level be stripped from the official Atari version. In other words, we JUST DON"T KNOW if the C64 programmers "coulda, shoulda or woulda" made a longer version, because they simply didn't have a chance to do it. The International Karate was made by the same programmers at different time. First they made the better version for C64 and subsequently the same people made the worse version for ATARI. So they perfectly knew that the previous version had been better since it had been their own work. In this case we JUST KNOW that they did it for a reason (they had a chance to do it better and didn't), so we don't need any "coulda, shoulda, woulda". That's why it's a different story and I said it was a hard nut to crack. I couldn't write it any simpler, so If you still don't understand it, I can't help you. Thus you proved that it actually has no relation to what I was talking about. I wasn't discussing whether the programmers could or would do anything, but only stating that the C64 could pull out the 2nd level as well as the Atari could pull out a better IK. See the difference? Congratulations, then. You are very good at telling jokes. To be honest there are a lot of comedians on this forum, however, one more wouldn't hurt. (...) Be decent and don't even start making personal remarks, please. Are you trying to move the discussion further ? how much further ? to what point ? Everything has been already said. We know that there are 2 versions, we know which one is better and why, heck, we even know about "shoulda, coulda, woulda "....thanks to you. Anyway, if you want to split hairs, feel free to do it, but don't count on me. There's already a lot of hair-splitting in this thread; recently someone declared a game of Spy Hunter "pure rubbish" on Atari only because it missed a few pixels in the water; so what would you expect? Edited October 20, 2009 by Kr0tki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+selgus Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Do you have some inside info about ROF or what ? As I read about it, it was not such a big deal to produce graphic like that (its simple actually, 3d terrain was done before and after that...), but what was a big deal was how to make it run fast enough on 8-bit cpu that ran at 1-2 Mhz. So is that "sub-divide, culling, 16-bit math, msb = zero, shift to 8-bit" how Loren did it on 6502 ? And you could start a new topic in programming subforum, it would be interesting I second that - more info on this would be great. It was a cool game, but I really doubt the routine is the unable to be duplicated God's gift to code that some make it out to be. Not to hijack this thread, I will open up another about this technique. I am actually making a 2600 version of a prequel to ROF and wasn't going to talk too much about it until I could release a demo. Yes, the whole trick was being able to do the 3D rendering in a fast enough way on the 8-bit processor, using different tricks. The line clipper is how the near/epsilon/far plane clipping works in REYES and 16-bits because after perspective, you can have some large numbers that you need to get into screen-space range. --Selgus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 There's already a lot of hair-splitting in this thread; recently someone declared a game of Spy Hunter "pure rubbish" on Atari only because it missed a few pixels in the water; so what would you expect? You didn't understand a damn thing of what I originally had written, but honestly speaking I'm dog tired of explaining you the meaning of each phrase. I've lost enough time already and I'm not going to do it any more. GOODBYE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 ... game seems to run in 50 fps? not bad... except for the samples... Let me guess-- sampling rate is 7850Hz or 3900Hz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Laird Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 49 - NAPOLEON IN RUSSIA C64 C64 The C64 version has better graphics in hi-res and more colours. The Atari version has ugly low-res graphics, which is especially painful, because it's a strategy-war game. C64 is better again. ATARI ATARI I actually far prefer the look of the Atari version in game and who cares about that title screen that just looks like a gay gypsy on his horse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Here's one feather in the cap of the Commodore 64. Check out the price of (as of right now, anyway) the C64 DTV joystick on Amazon. (there are 5 digits in the price) http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000701CSM/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1256081743&sr=8-4&condition=used I haven't looked for one of these in a while, and while I'm sure this is a fluke, are these things really that rare? Are they any good? How do you play without the keyboard? I guess they'll crop up cheaper later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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