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Atari v Commodore

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I'm surely becoming sick of this thread... It was originally about which games were better on the A8 than the C64... If you gentlemen really want to make this an issue then...

 

I'm an A8 person... Through and through... But show me a demo that's better on the A8 than

. Numen doesn't even come close; let alone work within 64 kilobytes. I love my A8's... But face it everyone... The C64 is the better machine.

 

How do you like them apples? I challenge anyone to prove me wrong... Not with words or technical statistics, but with software... Someone or some group please code a demo that will murder the C64 and tie this thread off...

 

Edge of disgrace is a nice demo to view, well worked. But as i can see 95% on it, could be done better on a Atari machine (some of them had been did it), rest of 5% who knows. Really it's not a challenge. Some portion of the demo open the borders, and that a great feature for a C64, but not for Atari.

 

Sometimes, attractive musical composition makes people like a demo which just reflects a good musical composition rather than any hardware superiority.

 

It's an absurd conclusion-- I saw some software which appears better on C64 therefore C64 is better than Atari machine. That can only be true if both softwares used all their hardware features to full potential. Mostly games are designed with some idea and then some of the hardware resources gets used to implement that idea. And then rather than redesign, it gets ported and usually becomes inferior on the target platform because hardware resources don't match up one to one.

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But show me a demo that's better on the A8 than
.

 

dwhyte, almost any demo (even on C-64) is better than "Edge of Disgrace". This already was discussed, the demo is simply boring, and it kills it as an attractive production.

 

I see this phenomenon (a boring demo advertised as the best one) as this:

 

1) to the C-64 people, the demo shows the strong points of the coders (open borders and still have something moving)

 

2) to Atari people, the demo simply shows the weak points of the machine (limited palette, and lack of CPU power)

 

To prove the 2nd, just look at the girl's face appearing somewhere in the EoD. To C-64 people it probably looks nice because they're used to this style. But where on earth have you seen a girl, whose face is violet, green and pale? She looks like a dead body recovered from water after a week or so. Etc.

 

I find that demo simply amazing drac030... I'm sorry that you don't... I must admit that the plasmas are a little boring, but the music is astounding... And about the girl's face appearing green: art is a fickle thing, isn't it... I also wasn't advertising it as the best C64 demo out there... I only find it merely better to watch than Numen... Which, by all standards, is the best demo on our machine...

 

I'll still take an 800XL over a C64 anyday... But it's high time for the masters of our beloved system to code a demo that will make any C64 lover's jaw drop... And have it run on no more than a stock 64 kilobyte A8...

 

Wow! This thread really has gone on so long that folks can't remember what was already discussed! It was already established that the A8 can't have a demo as good as the C64 for the same reason the C64 can't have a game as good a Yoomp!. The little development left on the platforms are in totally different fields.

 

Also - we already covered that Edge of Disgrace in not terrific compared to many other C64 demos. It does really wow a susbset of people however.

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Don´t want to interrupt this discussion, but I need a little help with the C64:

 

What is the easiest way to transfer files/disc images from my Mac to a real floppy disc?

 

I am absolutely an Atarian, but also own a C64C with a C1541-II and lots of discs. But I never heard a sound like the one in "Edge..." on that hardware. I want to run EoD on the real hardware, so how do I do that?

 

On the Atari I use the big ASCB from mega-hz which has a built in SIO2PC. Is there something similar for the C64?

Edited by skr

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99% of all A8s sold there are without 320k too.

 

"99%"? As I already said, you must be really very bored, if you cared to count it so precisely. How your parallax scroller on widescreen is going?

 

but a modded 1541 is probably still a true 1541 you can be proud of as an user of CBM products).

What modded 1541s?

 

Maybe these, which C64 people sometimes bring into argumentation to prove that "C64 drives are faster than Atari drives" :P If you stll don't know, maybe ask Oswald.

 

But that's another thing, for now just one question: why does it have to run on a stock 64KB A8? "Stock C-64" is the C-64 scene standard, not ours.

Stock A8 is also the Atari standard.

 

Stock A8 can be 16k or 128k. But the real question is, why we have to limit ourselves to 16k or 128k, if our machine can do more? Just to satisfy YOU?

 

Only you few active people have 320k, but all those people with their old A8 in the attic cannot watch that 320k stuff. With that 320k "standard" you are locking out a lot of people making your scene smaller than it could be.

 

If someone keeps the A8 stored in the attic, that means, that the computer is not used. So it does not run any software, even if it requires 1 MB and the computer physically contains the memory. Despite that, how it can be your problem, what standards we define/have/use? Do we have to limit our disk drives to 3800 baud just because stock 1541 + bare C-64 doesn't do more? Pff.

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Put my money where my mouth is.

Sold off all my C64 collection, with the exception of the EA flat box games I need to ensure my EA flat box collection is 100% complete.

 

Bought nearly 100 more boxed Atari 8-bit games over the last 2 weeks to add to the collection. Feels great! It's Atari only for 8-bit collecting from here on out.

 

Nice to know when you put an old disk in the drive, the game will actually boot. You never have that certainty with the C64 and it's wonky hardware.

 

And by the way, I've just answered the original question from the start of this thread.

Which games for the A8 are better than the same versions on the C64?

The answer:

All of them! At least, that's the answer when using original hardware in 2009, since the chances are good you won't keep your C64's drive in alignment long enough to even load the C64 version of the game.

Edited by FastRobPlus

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Don´t want to interrupt this discussion, but I need a little help with the C64:

 

What is the easiest way to transfer files/disc images from my Mac to a real floppy disc?

 

I am absolutely an Atarian, but also own a C64C with a C1541-II and lots of discs. But I never heard a sound like the one in "Edge..." on that hardware. I want to run EoD on the real hardware, so how do I do that?

 

On the Atari I use the big ASCB from mega-hz which has a built in SIO2PC. Is there something similar for the C64?

 

I also wanted to run some image stuff on real C64; I wrote this joystick port loader (using MPDOS cable) but it only works if everything is in one file and file does not access disk drive. It basically loads to a fixed location in memory like $4000+ and does a SYS 16384 at the end. Starting address is taken from header in file (if it exists). There's a chance starting address can be where the loader is but that's a risk I take.

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but a modded 1541 is probably still a true 1541 you can be proud of as an user of CBM products).

What modded 1541s?

Maybe these, which C64 people sometimes bring into argumentation to prove that "C64 drives are faster than Atari drives" :P If you stll don't know, maybe ask Oswald.

I think you misunderstood a little. You don't need to mod a 1541, you only need to upload new code to drive memory.

 

Stock A8 can be 16k or 128k. But the real question is, why we have to limit ourselves to 16k or 128k, if our machine can do more? Just to satisfy YOU?

You can't call a demo "Atari demo" when there is no Atari made machine which can show it.

 

Do we have to limit our disk drives to 3800 baud just because stock 1541 + bare C-64 doesn't do more? Pff.

As I said, the hardware is not limited to that.

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If you externally clock the SIO, you can still use all the AUDF registers for other things and increase SIO transfer rate as well.

 

Possibly, but I was referring to the internally clocked SIO and standard storage, like a serial disk drive. There of course could be non-standard storage devices, which allow/take into account external clocking or do not work via SIO at all, so during the transfer you of course can do anything you want with the AUDF registers...

Just send your demo with an SIO clock dongle. :)

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*psst*, your first *psst* at top of this page is in invisible ink.

*psst*

then BBCode works as advertised.

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You can't call a demo "Atari demo" when there is no Atari made machine which can show it.

 

Obviously we can and we do, because _we_ are Atari now (of course there is Infogrames, but it doesn't care on A8 anymore, so it is as if it didn't exist for this argument). So we decide what is an Atari and what is not. The limitations C64-scene has dedcided to put onto itself is no matter.

 

Do we have to limit our disk drives to 3800 baud just because stock 1541 + bare C-64 doesn't do more? Pff.

As I said, the hardware is not limited to that.

 

So it is limited to 38000 baud, because this is what you can do not having an UART at the C-64 side. Or such. And how it is related to Atari drives?

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Go for the 320K.

 

When I see kick ass stuff on Atari, I want to buy or build kick ass Atari stuff. Since it's retro, that is where the scene is. If the bar is lowered, then it becomes rather ordinary and dull, and the scene dies.

 

I would add to the C64 machines too, and do it for the same reasons.

 

I'm adding to my small Atari collection a bit at a time. I'm doing it because people are doing kick ass, fun stuff that keeps the hardware relevant. That is what it is all about, isn't it? Seeing YOOMP! basically put building up an A8 on my list.

 

Thank you to those who do produce for the old machines. Push it, push it hard! You love it, and we love it.

 

(just needed to take that "keep it to 64K" bit off the table. It's BS.)

 

Also, I know I've not yet seen all the Atari can do. Yeah it's harder to program for. But, that difficulty is a manifestation of very capable hardware designed by people who knew their stuff and worried about the little things. I suspect I've seen what the C64 can do.

 

In these times, now, here today, that's a powerful differentiator between the two machines. Atari has stories to tell yet, and that keeps things moving.

 

So then, there is which machine was superior when? C64 had a good ride during it's prime. The sprites are a big part of that, and I think they are kick ass. Always have.

 

Now though, it's a bit different story isn't it? Here at least, people are creating stuff and people are buying stuff. That's damn cool. Having an Atari machine now means about what having a C64 meant during it's prime. A second prime for Atari then!

 

Atari is deffo superior now, technical matters aside.

Edited by potatohead

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Also, I know I've not yet seen all the Atari can do. Yeah it's harder to program for. But, that difficulty is a manifestation of very capable hardware designed by people who knew their stuff and worried about the little things. I suspect I've seen what the C64 can do.

 

In these times, now, here today, that's a powerful differentiator between the two machines. Atari has stories to tell yet, and that keeps things moving.

 

Well said.

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Could custom SIO loading and RMT be mixed together?

 

The SIO uses the Pokey AUDF channels to generate the baudrate. I don't know this, I would experiment if I needed, but it is possible, that a single channel has too low resolution to generate the correct baudrate, so you would need to use a pair, like the OS does (AUDF3/4). Also, the base clock has to be set to a constant value (the OS uses 1,773 MHz), so that the baudrate remains stable.

 

This limits the soundtrack to two 8-bit channels (plus possibly third digitized one). Additionally the 6502 should have enough time to receive the byte from the SERIN (at 19200 a new byte comes from the serial bus every ~920 clocks).

There are several A8 demos that play music while loading. They sound like they're using 2 voices. I think Intel Outside is one of them.

 

As far as demos go, I think this is one of the areas the A8 excels at and probably the best way to argue A8 superiority.

 

The A8 can generate a lot of interesting visual effects that aren't that useful for games. I think Edge of Disgrace is a very clean and polished presentation, but doesn't contain anything really shocking.

 

 

just an example for 2 channel msx plus digi while SIO. in Atari800win you have to disable the sio patch.

energy1a.zip

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Obviously we can and we do, because _we_ are Atari now (of course there is Infogrames, but it doesn't care on A8 anymore, so it is as if it didn't exist for this argument). So we decide what is an Atari and what is not. The limitations C64-scene has dedcided to put onto itself is no matter.

To me that 320k "standard" just tells that you are not satisfied with the original Atari HW. It's mainly used to compensate the problem having only 2 sound channels during loading.

 

Do we have to limit our disk drives to 3800 baud just because stock 1541 + bare C-64 doesn't do more? Pff.

As I said, the hardware is not limited to that.

So it is limited to 38000 baud, because this is what you can do not having an UART at the C-64 side. Or such. And how it is related to Atari drives?

I don't know what it has to do with anything. You came up with that "modded 1541" BS. Btw, there is no UART for transfer.

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Obviously we can and we do, because _we_ are Atari now (of course there is Infogrames, but it doesn't care on A8 anymore, so it is as if it didn't exist for this argument). So we decide what is an Atari and what is not. The limitations C64-scene has dedcided to put onto itself is no matter.

To me that 320k "standard" just tells that you are not satisfied with the original Atari HW. It's mainly used to compensate the problem having only 2 sound channels during loading.

 

 

This is a interesting poll about Atari machines, (didn't include votes from most of the polish people) :

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...ari+poll+memory

 

Is a mystery for me, what made the Atari computer have to be upgraded with more memory. This happens even on early 80's. However, I from the idea that an stock 130XE is enough to show the power of Atari. More memory that's no make a real change on demos, because the CPU only manage 64 a the same time, and the extra memory is only used to get fast access to next sequences.

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not only for faster "loading" time but of course you can squeeze a lot of code and data (lookup tables, percalculated stuff, preshifted sprite data etc) into the extra banks... so it could make life easier...

 

but even I have 130xe nowadays I am heading for base 800xl machine, 64kb machine max.

 

if we are using 320kb for A8 productions we will always here people moaning from other machines...yeah but you are using not stock machine...

 

and I think... with 64k machine you get the broadest audience?

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To me that 320k "standard" just tells that you are not satisfied with the original Atari HW. It's mainly used to compensate the problem having only 2 sound channels during loading.

 

To me it only means that we are not making religion from having a stock machine, but upgrade it, whenever it proves useful. BTW. your point of view expressed here shows that you are rather limited in your coding skills to demos only (as this is mainly where this great feature is needded). It does not occur to you that some tasks simply require more memory, and you can't do them without.

 

Like compiling a source code that has 12000 labels. Go do that on your 64K, and stock 1541.

 

I don't know what it has to do with anything.

 

Il will tell you: this is equally related as C-64 being limited to 64K and Atari enjoying liberty of having more. I.e. unrelated. Have even 3,5K if you like, but don't tell us, that we have to do the same, just because you decided so. Short: piss off.

 

Btw, there is no UART for transfer.

 

Yeah, I know that you have no UART for serial transfer.

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I just say that in general C64 version of a same game is better than Atari version.

 

Despite you claim that Atari has a better hardware. And i agree on the "paper" Atari hardware could seems better.

 

But the fact is that there is more game better on C64 than the opposite.

 

So what can be the reason , if the Atari hardware is better ?

 

- Atari developper are not good ? (i don't think so)

- No enough time to develop? (could be in the past, but in that case what about modern production that are very good but still not a the level of a very good c64 game)

- Atari hardware is harder to exploit. in that case, i don't consider Atari Hardware being better.

- The Atari Hardware is in fact not better than c64 one.

 

But, searching on youtube, i have finally found something that the C64 is not able to do!!!

 

This clone of Ghost'n goblins :

 

 

Even if you really want, you can not do that on C64.... :D

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not 100% true... if you were go through the thread...

 

just as a reminder...

 

rescue on fractalus

koronis rift

eidolon

donkey kong

star raiders 2

the great american great cross...

electra glide

mercenary

ballblazer

dimension x (oops...no c64 version)

dropzone

henry's house

zone ranger

montezuma's revenge

...

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Just thinking - On the VCS I can reuse the sprites to get 18 sprites on a line - I can't do this on the 8 bit - so does this mean the VCS sprite hardware is superior to the 8 bit sprite hardware :)

Ahm, that's not correct. If you put up 7 sprites on A8 normally and replicate the 8th missile/player many times with no background graphics, you get 18 more sprites for a total of 25 sprites/scanline on A8. That does not make the entire sprite hardware inferior or superior but that's one aspect to look at incase you have some application that requires more horizontal sprites.

 

The VCS does it with background graphics, and the missiles ( 3 copies each ) plus the ball would give 25 sprites plus background :) - so I guess that's better then

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I just say that in general C64 version of a same game is better than Atari version.

 

Despite you claim that Atari has a better hardware. And i agree on the "paper" Atari hardware could seems better.

...

Okay, so if you agree hardware is better (as also shown in this thread), then why claim the opposite by just looking at some selection of software. As I stated earlier and others have stated people developed for non-GTIA systems, lesser memory, were ports from other systems, etc. Certain things like using more memory and GTIA modes is easy to do on Atari, but they weren't used. Other things like using 4 DACs, temporal dithering (interlacing), kernel coding, etc. may require more work on the developer's part. There's hardly any games earlier on that use kernels which saves a ton of cycles rather on interrupting the CPU every DLI.

 

>But the fact is that there is more game better on C64 than the opposite.

 

That's not a fact. That's your opinion. As Heaven, Allas, and others have listed software which is better on Atari.

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Just thinking - On the VCS I can reuse the sprites to get 18 sprites on a line - I can't do this on the 8 bit - so does this mean the VCS sprite hardware is superior to the 8 bit sprite hardware :)

Ahm, that's not correct. If you put up 7 sprites on A8 normally and replicate the 8th missile/player many times with no background graphics, you get 18 more sprites for a total of 25 sprites/scanline on A8. That does not make the entire sprite hardware inferior or superior but that's one aspect to look at incase you have some application that requires more horizontal sprites.

 

The VCS does it with background graphics, and the missiles ( 3 copies each ) plus the ball would give 25 sprites plus background :) - so I guess that's better then

 

You forgot the period so perhaps you have something else to say and got cut off. I don't program on Atari 2600, but I think you have 76 cycles per scanline (228 color clocks/3) so perhaps you want to show the code. But then again, that's still not entire sprite hardware.

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not only for faster "loading" time but of course you can squeeze a lot of code and data (lookup tables, percalculated stuff, preshifted sprite data etc) into the extra banks... so it could make life easier...

 

but even I have 130xe nowadays I am heading for base 800xl machine, 64kb machine max.

 

if we are using 320kb for A8 productions we will always here people moaning from other machines...yeah but you are using not stock machine...

 

and I think... with 64k machine you get the broadest audience?

 

I decided to use a FAST link rather than assume people have 2GB of memory. It's sort of like paging under Windows. Memory is on hard drive or in some secondary storage. I targetted 16K Atari 400 but in newer version I upped to 48K minimum to get more buffering for graphics/audio.

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