Atari v Commodore

[drac030]

"Now the only really existing 8-bit community is A8 fans too, and C-64 fans are rare"

 

I hope I dont have to argue of the different wording. I dont have a photographic memory, so excuse me.

 

I don't count on you having a photographic memory, but I could possibly count on you being able to read, and, while in doubt, have the posts recorded by the forum for consultation. The exact citation is:

 

"It does not matter much, even if 100 mln units of C-64 were sold, because actually, for example, here (in Poland) the proportion is reverse: in 1990 almost everyone had or had had an Atari, and C-64 were rare. Now the only really existing 8-bit community is A8 fans too, and C-64 fans are rare."

 

You're also supposed to be able to read the sentences (I even put them in separate passage) and understand them properly in the context.

 

And now, once it is clarified that you were wrong accusing me of denying reality, please take the time and reply to the post no. 3812, aka "do you really care, how many bikes are produced yearly in China, and if so, why you do"

[Fröhn]

"It does not matter much, even if 100 mln units of C-64 were sold, because actually, for example, here (in Poland) the proportion is reverse: in 1990 almost everyone had or had had an Atari, and C-64 were rare. Now the only really existing 8-bit community is A8 fans too, and C-64 fans are rare."

Are you sure about that? The C64 demo scene in poland was quite big. Groups like Lepsi, Samar, Vermes, Arise etc etc released a large number of demos. Given the very little amount of A8 demo releases these days, I'd say that also nowadays the polish C64 scene is more active than the polish A8 scene.

[Wolfram]

"Now the only really existing 8-bit community is A8 fans too, and C-64 fans are rare"

 

I hope I dont have to argue of the different wording. I dont have a photographic memory, so excuse me.

 

I don't count on you having a photographic memory, but I could possibly count on you being able to read, and, while in doubt, have the posts recorded by the forum for consultation. The exact citation is:

 

"It does not matter much, even if 100 mln units of C-64 were sold, because actually, for example, here (in Poland) the proportion is reverse: in 1990 almost everyone had or had had an Atari, and C-64 were rare. Now the only really existing 8-bit community is A8 fans too, and C-64 fans are rare."

 

You're also supposed to be able to read the sentences (I even put them in separate passage) and understand them properly in the context.

 

And now, once it is clarified that you were wrong accusing me of denying reality, please take the time and reply to the post no. 3812, aka "do you really care, how many bikes are produced yearly in China, and if so, why you do"

 

1) oh, my sincere apologies, i have not missunderstood it on purpose.

 

2) asking tricky questions will not change the fact that c64 is the best selling computer ever, and was THE 8 bit computer for most people.

 

3) somehow I doubt poland had more a8's than c64's. The poland c64 scene was huge in the 90s. I bet they produced more c64 demos at that period than all a8 demos put together.

[drac030]

2) asking tricky questions will not change the fact that c64 is the best selling computer ever, and was THE 8 bit computer for most people.

 

Maybe, but what's the argument for others? Do you REALLY care on Chinese bikes? No, I suppose? So why I am supposed to care on the number of C64 sold? This is not a tricky question, this is a question, that directly applies to one of your argument.

 

3) somehow I doubt poland had more a8's than c64's. The poland c64 scene was huge in the 90s. I bet they produced more c64 demos at that period than all a8 demos put together.

 

Define "huge". A8 was sold in Poland in several hundreds thousands (300000 or something) units, and judging from the popularity, it outsold C64 by several times (10 times maybe).

 

This of course proves nothing. I am just still curious, if you really are interested in the number of Chinese bikes sold yearly.

[oky2000]

I have instantly told you it was irony.

 

... whereas you should have said that it was intended as irony

 

Behind the scene some wonder why it seems to be a common attitude of C-64 fans to come to other fora and attempt to initiate flamewars (aka "debate that C-64 is better than your computer", as it could be put more exactly).

 

I haven't done any research on that, but it seems so to me also; mainly because some time ago (2-3 years) I was browsing various fora and usenet groups for 8-bit computers, and what I have seen: in ZX Spectrum group there was a flamewar between locals and such incoming C-64 fans, in the Amstrad group there was a flamewar between locals and such incoming C-64 fans,... also on PL atari newsgroup there was a flamewar between locals and incoming C-64 fans etc. What happens here repeatedly, we all know. I haven't seen a flamewar between Amstrad fans and ZX fans on ZX group. So, I missed this, or it is really so that C-64 guys like to "debate" so much?

 

What a load of poppy cock, here we have bias, in the ST section we have bias, on both the Amiga only groups I am a member we have bias, and on the C64 forum we have bias. Are you stating that people join just to make trouble? Amstrad owners are few and far between, we don't see VIC-20 owners joining in with Spectrum owners to debate things either, doesn't mean that there aren't VIC-20 owners who believe they have a better sound chip or keyboard or multicolour mode blah blah

 

As for the previous comment about standard hardware, well a 320K XE wasn't possible in 1985 nor was a 320k Atari 800 in 1980 either because some of the components certainly weren't around when Jay Miner deigned it SO IT IS VERY RELEVANT Also I don't see anybody using a stock Atari 800 as a webserver today either hmmm and yet such a task is undertaken by a C64 with no modifications hmmmm funny that.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that apart from the fact that a time machine doesn't exist to take back a copy of Enforcer II and run it on a real prototype C64 on display in 1982 there is no reason this game could not have been written and sold as a launch title for the machine. So it is VERY relevant to the whole issue.

 

The C64 only has one game that requires any kind of extra add-on (Metal Dust) and it is not even as stunning to look at as Enforcer II except for some streamed music samples most people would agree.

 

For the record two of Jack's great successes (PET & C64) were designed by people not directly in his employment, the Commodore Amiga was the only success for Commodore after Jack left. There is a pattern there if anyone cares to look. The simple fact was Jack did the best he could with what he had available, and the budget left over for the task of rebuilding Atari. If the STE was launched at the time of the ST as it should have been things would have been a lot more bloody in the Commodore boardroom haha. I have much respect for Jack, it doesn't matter which company he was in charge of, he always did the best he could with the tools he had available I believe. Atari died a slow horrible death only because Commodore bought the Amiga as he was trying to bankrupt them and get the technology for a lot less, a gamble too far but probably not by choice as if he had the money to give them $1m I'm sure he would have done that.

 

(and I am a member here because I own many VCS, XL,XE,Lynx.ST,7800 as well as every other 8bit computer ever made that outputs a PAL signal NOT to defend anything. If people can't work out what is and isn't impossible to do on multiple machines when evidence exists for one and only horseshit is shown for another that's not my problem really)

[Fröhn]

Define "huge". A8 was sold in Poland in several hundreds thousands (300000 or something) units, and judging from the popularity, it outsold C64 by several times (10 times maybe).

Then I must have missed a lot of polish A8 demos. Or the polish C64 people simply outperformed you by factor 100 (given the assumption that only 1/10th C64s vs A8 existed and given the fact that easily 10 times more polish demos exist on C64).

[potatohead]

HI THERE, MY NAME IS "I GET A CHUBBY FROM JUST THINKING ABOUT THE C64" WOLFRAM. I TOOK THE TIME TO COME HERE TODAY TO TELL YOU HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY CHOSEN THE COMPUTER OF THE 80's. NOT A HOME COMPUTER, BUT THE HOME COMPUTER.

 

THAT'S RIGHT! THE C64! EVERYBODY, WHO IS ANYBODY HAS ONE.

 

I'VE GOT ONE AND I FEEL BIGGER EVERY SINGLE DAY. YOU CAN TOO!

[emkay]

What is was hard to understand, when I was writing that the A8 versions was simply cutted down versions from originated Supercomputers ?

This does not mean that the A8 is a Supercomputer, but it seems you implement that into my arguing.

All that this means is that the A8 version of Rescue on Fractalus (for example) is straightly written into 6502 code with all thought for such Supercomputer. It was only cutted down until it had fit into the A8. You really should take a look about David Fox and what he was explaining...

 

 

You will not accept it, but this is my honest opinion: when someone cant accept that someone else's machine is better/had bigger succes, then comes the flaming. In my amiga times I bloody hated the pcs for getting ahead of "my" HW/OS. As c64 was THE computer in the 8bit era speccy/amstrad/a8 fans must flame it. Look at this thread, it was started to look for games that were better on a8 than on c64 by an a8 guy. On c64 forums noone starts such threads because they know majority of c64 games are better than on other 8 bit platforms, there's no need to search for examples and ask people to bring them up, they are all over the place. Also noone feels the need to prove c64 is better than whatever 8bit, so no such threads start up on c64 forums.

 

What to say?

The dumbest people think, they were the wisest man, because they never learned what other people know.

 

Back in those days I had an Amstrad 464, an Atari 800XL, and a C128 (The games were the most boring ones, nice graphics, fat sound, but boring games ). The C128 lastet 14 Days then I gave it away.

Later I got an ST and then an Amiga 2000.

Today I still have my old 800XL and my Amiga 2000. I also never hated the PC, I really didn't need one, until Big C made the big mistake of putting the ECS machines to be "retired" and only praise the AGA machines, before the AMIGA really got established. So the final checkmate was given away to the PC and Microsoft.

I used the 2000 til 1993 and then I bought my 1st PC....

 

... and so on ...

[drac030]

So, I missed this, or it is really so that C-64 guys like to "debate" so much?

 

What a load of poppy cock, here we have bias, in the ST section we have bias, on both the Amiga only groups I am a member we have bias, and on the C64 forum we have bias. Are you stating that people join just to make trouble?

 

Honestly, I have no idea, how were you in schools, but I thought that a phrase ended with a question mark could hardly be named a "statement". So, if you read my post again, maybe you see that there is no statement there. There is a question there, and so you miss with your comment.

 

As for the previous comment about standard hardware, well a 320K XE wasn't possible in 1985 nor was a 320k Atari 800 in 1980 either because some of the components certainly weren't around when Jay Miner deigned it SO IT IS VERY RELEVANT

 

Really? I don't see any relevancy. It is C-64 fans who insist on using 1982 technology ONLY, and not even protect the joystick ports from short circuits, because Saint Tramiel dedcided so, so it is sacred. Here we don't make religion out of such things. Who wants a vanilla 600XL, may enjoy it all the time. Who wants 320K, installs one and the life goes on. We don't have a sacred "standard" in this respect.

 

Also I don't see anybody using a stock Atari 800 as a webserver today either hmmm and yet such a task is undertaken by a C64 with no modifications hmmmm funny that.

 

http://www.kl.net/atari/

 

Sure, TODAY it does not serve its webpage

 

Sorry for dismissing the rest of your post, but it doesn't apply to any of my points. Maybe others will comment.

[Bryan]

I have examined the foam packaging from both an Atari and a Commodore retail box.

 

Using a microscope, I observed that the Styrofoam balls were more uniformly round in the Atari foam than in the Commodore foam.

 

Therefore, it is my assertion that if you buy Commodore products you end up with misshapen balls.

[drac030]

Then I must have missed a lot of polish A8 demos.

 

Maybe, but you know, this is not my problem. I consider natural, though, that being a C-64 fan you watch mostly C-64 demos. It is also possible, that Atari scene is lazy. But this still does not answer my question, why I have to care on the number of C-64 sold?

[potatohead]

ROTFL

[Wolfram]

I have examined the foam packaging from both an Atari and a Commodore retail box.

 

Using a microscope, I observed that the Styrofoam balls were more uniformly round in the Atari foam than in the Commodore foam.

 

Therefore, it is my assertion that if you buy Commodore products you end up with misshapen balls.

 

more uniformly round is not good because they roll on eachother more easily, making the package more easily damaged.

[Wolfram]

and not even protect the joystick ports from short circuits, because Saint Tramiel dedcided so, so it is sacred.

 

indeed. amen.

[emkay]

Maybe, but you know, this is not my problem. I consider natural, though, that being a C-64 fan you watch mostly C-64 demos. It is also possible, that Atari scene is lazy. But this still does not answer my question, why I have to care on the number of C-64 sold?

 

It's a summary of spreading and giving "knowledge" away to other people who put their own knowledge into a big pool of ideas and people were manifold to produce the wanted stuff.

The huge size of the C64 usership, was the main cause for the fast development on that machine. It is not to underestimate.

[atariksi]

>Sorry, you don't understand how Atari joysticks work. You can pair up the joysticks and read 8-bit values using LDA 54016. No rotates, nibble merging required. You are too stupid to see such a simple point and replying before even reading my post:

 

I did a little research.

 

Sorry, you don't understand how C64 joysticks work. You can read the state of the joystick all 5 bits in one go, so its atleast 5 bits, and its all done using a 8 bit I/O port. so you were wrong from the very start. c64's joystick port is aswell 8 bit. you can stop now and go home.

 

Nice joke. Go try it in real life and see how you can get 8-bits of data read in with one instruction.

As I stated, you can't argue against something you don't understand. Reveals your biased nature.

[drac030]

The huge size of the C64 usership, was the main cause for the fast development on that machine. It is not to underestimate.

 

So? This (like the 30 mln sold) is still a fact, that means nothing to us (like: we have only one Moon; maybe if we had two, several things would be different; but we have one, and there is nothing to do with that)

 

As for the spread knowledge, you yourself argued by the half of the extent of the debate with Wolfram, that e.g. techniques of programming video on Atari and on C-64 are different. So their knowledge does not do any added value to our knowledge, nor theirs to ours. We have to develop own knowledge at this point, in fact the only thing common with the C-64 is the 6502 CPU.

 

Larger user base means more coders, and more better ones, but this does not mean, that no Atari coder can be as good as C-64 coder, especially when the 6502 is rather simple processor. So, again, there is nothing to do with this, we'd (as atarians) probably live equally the same life without C-64 existing, as we do with.

[Fröhn]

Then I must have missed a lot of polish A8 demos.

Maybe, but you know, this is not my problem. I consider natural, though, that being a C-64 fan you watch mostly C-64 demos. It is also possible, that Atari scene is lazy. But this still does not answer my question, why I have to care on the number of C-64 sold?

But maybe I watched more A8 demos than you think? Ever thought about that possibility?

[+wood_jl]

Also I don't see anybody using a stock Atari 800 as a webserver today either hmmm and yet such a task is undertaken by a C64 with no modifications hmmmm funny that.

 

How many people have tried to use an Atari 800 as a webserver and failed? What would be the point? So this proves the C64's superiority, then. Please point to some web pages served up by C64. Maybe they should start placing ads in IT journals for this solution! I'm thinking the foil-lined cardboard shielding may have to be removed to keep things cool. I hope the pages aren't coming over a 1541 at 2400 baud!

[atariksi]

thats a very cool possiblity indeed. on the downside it eats up memory like crazy.

 

The display memory technically eats up the same amount of memory as normally, only the DL will be longer (for ANTIC can address 64K address space). For a 192-line display you use 40 bytes of each page, and get continuous blocks of memory above $C000. You can use 216 bytes on pages $00-$BF to store smaller chunks of data, short subroutines etc. A bit of trouble, but not so bad.

 

You can actually double buffer the data using the same memory space. And it's easy enough to use 128 bytes per line as well since you just have to set MSB bit of LSB byte for y positioning. And display list would be easy to use for scrolling and for overscan mode.

 

Continuous blocks of memory above $C000-- what did you mean by that?

[drac030]

But maybe I watched more A8 demos than you think? Ever thought about that possibility?

 

Ever though about a possibility, that I don't care, what you watch?

 

If you have hard time to believe, that there are countries, where the C-64 is/was not the most popular 8-bitter, then this is not my problem either. Especially that I am not going to use this fact as an argument for anything. The thing I am arguing is that the number of OTHER COMPUTERS (or Chinese bikes) sold anywhere else does not have any influence on the existing A8 user base, as it is itself big enough to keep going. As simple as that.

[Fröhn]

But maybe I watched more A8 demos than you think? Ever thought about that possibility?

Ever though about a possibility, that I don't care, what you watch?

No. Because you mentioned that I probably watched too little A8 demos you pretty much said that you do care.

[drac030]

Continuous blocks of memory above $C000-- what did you mean by that?

 

I only mean, that if you setup the DL so that every line of the 256x192/2 ( narrow GR. 8 ) starts on separate page (like, line 0, addresses $0000-$001F, line 1: addresses $0100-$011F etc.), then the area of $0000-$BFFF is divided into areas of 224 bytes each interleaved with screen data. Only after $C000 you get 4k continuous block of free RAM and then another 10k, where you can put your program.

 

This way PLOT X,Y writes under Y * 256 + ( X / 8 )

Edited April 13, 2009 by drac030

[drac030]

Ever though about a possibility, that I don't care, what you watch?

No. Because you mentioned that I probably watched too little A8 demos you pretty much said that you do care.

 

Consult that post again, I haven't written anythling like this. I simply wrote that this is not my problem (whether you missed many A8 demos or not, that is). Or maybe you know better than myself, what do I care and what I do not?

[atariksi]

Graphics modes usually don't use cells to draw with. Atari has both methods. I can set scanline width to 256 and draw graphics and compute x,y by simply writing to high byte for Y position and and low byte for X position. Ever try that on C64? For you it's okay to keep using CPU but for Atari it's not.

 

 

wow, finally something interesting. thats a very cool possiblity indeed. on the downside it eats up memory like crazy.

 

that's exactly what I have used when porting Venus Express from C64 to Atari... on C64 Aleksi copied the stuff into vram while I simply setup a 24x256 display list...

 

it is also handy for gameboy like scrolling methods (bufferlines outside the visible screen) or even hardcoded "new" scrolltechniques only possible with Antic "weird" display list structures...

 

Did you do overscan mode? I mean if you're doing virtual displays, mine as well enable overscan (unless you need the 8 DMA cycles).