Atari v Commodore

[Allas]

I don't understand the point of asking to see a game that couldn't be reproduced on the Commodore 64, then being shown some that are obviously too colorful, then saying that the gameplay wouldn't be affected by the Commodore's restricted pallette. WTF?? Colors ARE the Atari advantage. What kind of sense does this questioning make?

English is not my native language so maybe I should use whole sentences instead of one word.

"reproduced" in my vocabulary does not mean 100% correct replica.

For example if you would show me on Atari, Turrican made in 4 colors, but with the same game mechanics, weapons, enemies, speed... I would be cheering!

Have you seen boss at the end of C64s Turrican 2 ? its 2 screens tall, 15 chars wide. And its not made of characters... Its made of sprites so it flies over and under colored background. Is there a boss like that in any game on Atari... I haven't seen one.

 

But if you show me a game that has 256 colors and plays like poo...

And than reduce number of colors to two.... and it still plays like poo.... well thats a difference Im ready to ignore...

 

Guys..... maybe Im just saying gameplay is more important than number of colors on the screen.

Yoomp is a great example of this.

 

Take a time to think, the last boss on Turrican II could be done with chars on Atari with the background. Always there is a solution to do some things. Don't expect that should be done at the "C64 style"

 

Colors and gameplay are important on games. And the color experience not only has perceive counting the amount of colors per frame. It count too, the variations of colors along the gameplay, borders, change of colors between levels. If you count all this, for sure Yoomp have to count more than 64 colors for all gaming experience. A C64 gaming experience only give me 16 colors per game, so I finish the game and don't feel I have a great experience about the colors.

 

As I said before we Atarians looks some C64 games as tha smae way you C64 users look the Spectrum games. The palette is not enough, and most of the games have ugly colors, if it not, there are combinations that has been used thousand of times before.

[+wood_jl]

1. Is there such a game in this universe that its "playability" depends so much on the number of colors presented on screen that it can not be "remade" with less colors without loosing its "playability".

2. "Less colors" means more than some regular normal positive number probably biger than 4...

(just in case some of you think to say: "Well, pacman with one color would loose much of its fun... you wouldn't see player, ghosts, labyrinth and dots....")

 

 

Colourspace

 

The witnesses for the defence rest, your honour.

Holy Cow! This is really badass!! The author (Jeff Minter) is - of course - famous for his trippy colorful stuff on everything from the Jag to the Xbox 360. I had NO idea he was an old 8-bit Atari guy as well. What a pleasant surprise. He got his trippy color trend started back in the 8-bit days on the only computer that had the colors to get psychadelic - ATARI.

 

After I read your post, I browsed my HD and found I had Colourspace on the "Holmes CD1" directory under "applications." I immediately fired up my 800XL and ran it, and now I can barely see what I'm typing because my retinas are temporarily burned. WOW!

 

I'll have to get back to that one and spend some time. "Side B" of the disk is Antic instructions. I'll definitely be leaving this image in my SIO2PC directory for a while!

 

I'm suprised (pleasantly) that I never saw this before.

[Heaven/TQA]

Hej Heaven

Why don't You write something on VBXE instead, You should have emulator for it

 

o, do I? is the Emulator ready??? Did I missed something?

[Heaven/TQA]

Alternate Reality

The best 8bit adventure 3d with lot of colors

Do you guys really like that style, where most of the colour is just horizontal bands? Don't you think it makes the background look transparent? When I see things like that, I get the impression they're just going for loads of colours/shades using DLIs at the expense of visual design and effectiveness. (Mind you, the c64 version of this game is no supermodel either. Alternate Reality: The Dungeon makes better use of the machine.)

 

I love AR but I hate the gate as the rasters go over the borders of the antic e 160h screen and below the gate... it looks so "unprofessional" done. BUT ingame it kicks ass... the small details in the far background, ambient sound and raindrop fx the sky fx...

 

only the enemy sprites are so small in AR1.

 

and yes... AR2 is better imho, more traditional RPG (that's another story at all).

 

so... where is the comparison of both versions? in terms of CPU power the A8 should be faster when scrolling through the sewer?

[Rybags]

AR barely rates a mention in C-64 circles.

 

If they'd done it with a turbo-loader it probably would have rated up with the A8 version.

 

I think the implementation of Dungeon is better so far as the establishment graphics go.

 

For the outdoor stuff, Dungeon has a nice variety of walls, arches etc. but City has the nicer weather and far background effects.

 

Personally, I played City for months/years. Didn't play Dungeon much, although I never had a proper working copy until finding a cracked version under 10 years ago.

[Barnacle boy]

...and now I can barely see what I'm typing because my retinas are temporarily burned.

heh. Otherwise known as 'The Minter Effect'.

 

 

I love AR but I hate the gate as the rasters go over the borders of the antic e 160h screen and below the gate... it looks so "unprofessional" done. BUT ingame it kicks ass... the small details in the far background, ambient sound and raindrop fx the sky fx...

 

only the enemy sprites are so small in AR1.

 

Come to think of it, it isn't really fair of me to use that gate shot as an example. It's not hard to picture how they could have used those gradients more effectively. For starters, they could have made those buildings a different colour (and hence a different gradient) to the ground. Even if they had just filled the buildings with the greys that you can see in the mountains and in the edges of the gate, it would have separated it nicely. Other shots from the game certainly show much more effective use of colour bars.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Barnacle boy

[Allas]

THE CITY is the best version of both. There are more factors inside the game, the music is better on THE CITY, really I remember those detailed graphic effects and the music create a Terrific ambient.

 

On DUNGEON version the game was a port, so colors were reduced to 4,5 on screen. The game overall was convert to a "arcade style". I think is an excelent game but not as brutal as THE CITY (on Atari computers I said), maybe other computer found DUNGEON the best game. However the DUNGEON Atari version looks as the C64 version, nothing more, nothing less.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Allas

[MaPa]

Ok, pencils continued. This time like C64 with fake colors cause C64 can't do better (again just amateur work, I'm not graphic artist)

[popmilo]

1. Is there such a game in this universe that its "playability" depends so much on the number of colors presented on screen that it can not be "remade" with less colors without loosing its "playability".

2. "Less colors" means more than some regular normal positive number probably biger than 4...

(just in case some of you think to say: "Well, pacman with one color would loose much of its fun... you wouldn't see player, ghosts, labyrinth and dots....")

 

 

Colourspace

 

The witnesses for the defence rest, your honour.

 

I found it on:

http://www.page6.org/archive/issue_16/page_12.htm

 

quote from the text: "Colourspace is going to be difficult to put into words. It is easier to describe what it is not. It is not a game, it is not a utility, it is not an adventure, you do not score points, there is no goal, no competition, no final outcome. What on earth is it then? It is what no software company has come up with for many years something quite unique."

 

So as a tech achievement I'm taking my hat of... praised be the color palette of Atari

Is it a game?

[atariksi]

Mainly discussion is about which machines is better C64 vs. Atari. Marketing is a field by itself. Regarding your theory that someone else may have taken over the computer market, I would say things happen according to what one deserves. I don't hold any bias toward anyone taking over the market, but we can discuss whether a superior product existed that isn't necessarily the one that took over a market.

 

...

Plus, there have been no replies lately, so who to discuss which is better with? I was hoping to get back to the comparison with the link to the high-speed SIO videos. Since the biased Commodore users were just fantasizing that their computer was superior in EVERY respect, I had picked what is obviously the greatest flaw, specifically to use it as a test of character for them. Not only will they not acknowledge it, they claim the flaw does not exist and in fact their machie is superior in that regard! Do you think they passed the character test? The fact that they won't even acknowlege evidence (presented) to the contrary means the debate is entirely a waste of time, save for some light entertainment value. Since there haven't been any responses, why not mention marketing, since they're not going to deal with issues? Maybe they've been run off. There must be an Apple II forum taking the brunt of it now!

 

Well, I don't think it's the greatest flaw. I would say claiming "palette is subjective" is a pretty big flaw (as stated earlier by some) or that lower resolution modes on ANTIC are "useless" or 60-bits of collision detection and 2000+ sprites simultaneously are "useless".

[atariksi]

Let's see some more pencils!

 

I guess you get a choice on Atari whether to retain the colors and perhaps have less vertical pencils or use miscolored pencils like C64 and have more of them. Or you have the choice of using GTIA modes and having many good colored pencils at cost of horizontal resolution (assuming no sprite enhancements). But in an application, you would use what works best for the A8 which in this case would be horizontal pencils with hscroll and DL collapse to allow one to pick a pencil to paint with in a GTIA mode...

I mean Riveraid has a whole slew of multicolored sprites and vscrolling; now if you implemented this game at 90 degree rotation, there won't be as many multicolor sprites.

[+CyranoJ]

So as a tech achievement I'm taking my hat of... praised be the color palette of Atari

Is it a game?

 

Let's see a video of a C64 doing something better (ie, more colourful and dynamic) than this before you change your "attack mode" and move to another subject.

 

Seems to be some simple rules for the C64 trolls here.

 

1) If the C64 can do it better then thats a FACT.

2) If the A8 can do it better then thats just personal preference or just plain "doesn't matter"

 

I suggest we all stop feeding them.

[candle]

as for the games that can't be done on c64 (palete wise) here is one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fcvWjg2fvo

 

its an early prototype, but it should be ready soon

[atariksi]

Let's see some more pencils!

 

yeah 32 colours. Sadly, this cannot be done in G2F.

But, could you make the rubbers more rubber-red

The pencil peaks could be darken with a small addtitional DLI

 

Was that 32 colors? I thought it was:

 

P0|P1 = 3 colors (in p/m multicolor mode)

P0|P1|PF0 = 3 colors (GPRIOR mode 0)

P0|P1|PF1 = 3 colors (GPRIOR mode 0)

P2|P3 = 3 colors (in p/m multicolor mode)

P2|P3|PF2 = 3 colors (GPRIOR mode 0)

P2|P3|PF3 = 3 colors (GPRIOR mode 0 w/Player 5 used as PF3)

PF0, PF1, PF2 by themselves (no overlap-- normal 160*200 antic mode E) = 3 colors

PF3 = 1 color (Player 5 by itself (no overlap))

BAK = 1 color (background)

 

-----------------------

Total: 23 colors/scanline.

 

Unless you are talking setting color of erasure/tip using DLI that would add some more colors but on different scanlines. I don't think he's re-using sprites/colors on a scanline.

[drac030]

...Pinball Phantasies...

...Phantastic approach...

...phantastic gameplay...

For the love of god, WHY?

 

<OT>There are some points where the English ortography just isn't etymologically correct, or even consistent: "fantastic" but "phantasm" (although there is the same root in both words, the greek "phaino" = appear). Similarly "condition" "should" be rather written "condicion", because it comes from Latin "con"+"dicere" (make an agreement) and not "condire" (to season), "expect" should contain an additional "s" after "x", because it is "ex"+"spectare" (to await) and not "ex"+"pectere" (to comb out) etc.</OT>

Edited April 30, 2009 by drac030

[atariksi]

...

Technology <> supreme playability though sure. For example if they could have squeezed Gauntlet into 48k so it could be played with 4 players on an Atari 800 instead of 64k only and 2 player only it would have been more fun to play than any other 8bit version.

 

I agree there is nothing impossible between 8bit machines, just some machines will do a certain game better than others...for example the DLI extremely colourful background effect on Attack of the Mutant Camels makes a big difference on the A8 version and you need the extra palette to do that.

...

Why don't you explain this to popmilo.

 

>To people wishing to have a proper non-fanboy type discussion I am ready any time. I have just chosen to ignore 3 posters who constantly post 100% inaccurate 'facts' now though.

 

Let me know their user IDs, so I can ask them to post "2+2=4" so then you won't ignore them.

[frenchman]

I found it on:

http://www.page6.org/archive/issue_16/page_12.htm

 

quote from the text: "Colourspace is going to be difficult to put into words. It is easier to describe what it is not. It is not a game...

 

Is it a game?

 

 

I think popmilo wanted to be clever funny here, but it somehow backfired.

[atariksi]

APAC = 80 columns, colour line then luma line.

 

TIP = 160 perceived columns, since the luma line alternates between mode 9 and 10 (mode 10 pixels are shifted to the right by half a pixel).

 

Both modes rely on PAL decoder colour averaging.

 

Okay, so there's 3 things here: normal 50/60Hz modes, interleaved (dithered) modes, and interlaced modes (@25/30Hz). Atari wins in normal graphics modes (many more combinations) and it wins hands down with interlaced modes since it already has a bigger palette and it grows exponentially with interlaced; and smaller shade changes are less flickering. Any images that show the interleaved PAL mixing?

[+wood_jl]

I found it on:

http://www.page6.org/archive/issue_16/page_12.htm

 

quote from the text: "Colourspace is going to be difficult to put into words. It is easier to describe what it is not. It is not a game, it is not a utility, it is not an adventure, you do not score points, there is no goal, no competition, no final outcome. What on earth is it then? It is what no software company has come up with for many years something quite unique."

 

So as a tech achievement I'm taking my hat of... praised be the color palette of Atari

Is it a game?

 

IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAN NOT BE DONE ON A C64. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. If it were a game, you would say the playbility could be done on C64. If it were anything else, you would pick out something and say it could be done on C64. Whatever Colourspace is, IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAN NOT BE DONE ON C64 REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU LIKE IT. EVEN IF YOU HATE IT, IT CAN NOT BE DONE ON C64. Is that clear?

[Barnacle boy]

Hmm...

 

- popmilo specifically asks for an example of a game that would suffer in terms of playability with less colours.

 

- Cyrano responds with a Jeff Minter lightsynth toy/app/whatchamacallit

 

- popmilo praises it, but points out quite politely that it isn't really a game.

 

- Cyrano calls him a c64 troll, frenchman says popmilio's post 'backfired' (though god knows how he arrived at that conclusion), and wood_jl starts shouting "IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAN NOT BE DONE ON A C64. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS."

 

Way to go, guys. Stay classy.

 

 

@MaPa. Nice work with the pencils. Now I'm going to have to resist the urge to spend next week drawing a totally over the top piccy with pencils all at crazy angles.

[MaPa]

Let's see some more pencils!

 

yeah 32 colours. Sadly, this cannot be done in G2F.

But, could you make the rubbers more rubber-red

The pencil peaks could be darken with a small addtitional DLI

 

Was that 32 colors? I thought it was:

 

P0|P1 = 3 colors (in p/m multicolor mode)

P0|P1|PF0 = 3 colors (GPRIOR mode 0)

P0|P1|PF1 = 3 colors (GPRIOR mode 0)

P2|P3 = 3 colors (in p/m multicolor mode)

P2|P3|PF2 = 3 colors (GPRIOR mode 0)

P2|P3|PF3 = 3 colors (GPRIOR mode 0 w/Player 5 used as PF3)

PF0, PF1, PF2 by themselves (no overlap-- normal 160*200 antic mode E) = 3 colors

PF3 = 1 color (Player 5 by itself (no overlap))

BAK = 1 color (background)

 

-----------------------

Total: 23 colors/scanline.

 

Unless you are talking setting color of erasure/tip using DLI that would add some more colors but on different scanlines. I don't think he's re-using sprites/colors on a scanline.

 

There is reused PF2 color several times, actually changed 6x per scanline.

[atariksi]

First of all... when I said "can be made" - I didn't mean "can be replicated 100%"...

I just meant "can be made so it can look alike and feel and play alike"

 

@frenchman: Dimension X has a nice idea.... first part looks like trailblazer... (c64 did that)... Tunnel part is nice but also doable on commodore...

@atariksi: Sorry for beeing new to this Like I said - "look alike" not 100% exact.... I will admit thou...

atari has bigger palette - show me a game that made use of that to improve gaming experience enough to make the game better than it could be on c64.

Cpu speed - obvious. Rescue of fractalus is excellent example and I love it on atari...

Higher res. timers - ? Don't know how those affect gaming experience...

 

...

Riveraid and Boulderdash are two games I recently played that change color schemes between levels and that adds to variety; variety is spice of life. Boulderdash also does diamond color rainbow effects (which also requires some timing using WSYNC). You get a better experience playing games on color TV vs. B&W TV. And improving from no shades to 8 or 16 shades makes a difference. Atari's better timing system of allowing horizontal and vertical split of colors/sprites/etc. and for audio/input-output factors into overall experience of games. I mainly have noted the timing difference in my application (which is not a game).

[Heaven/TQA]

First of all... when I said "can be made" - I didn't mean "can be replicated 100%"...

I just meant "can be made so it can look alike and feel and play alike"

 

@frenchman: Dimension X has a nice idea.... first part looks like trailblazer... (c64 did that)... Tunnel part is nice but also doable on commodore...

@atariksi: Sorry for beeing new to this Like I said - "look alike" not 100% exact.... I will admit thou...

atari has bigger palette - show me a game that made use of that to improve gaming experience enough to make the game better than it could be on c64.

Cpu speed - obvious. Rescue of fractalus is excellent example and I love it on atari...

Higher res. timers - ? Don't know how those affect gaming experience...

 

...

Riveraid and Boulderdash are two games I recently played that change color schemes between levels and that adds to variety; variety is spice of life. Boulderdash also does diamond color rainbow effects (which also requires some timing using WSYNC). You get a better experience playing games on color TV vs. B&W TV. And improving from no shades to 8 or 16 shades makes a difference. Atari's better timing system of allowing horizontal and vertical split of colors/sprites/etc. and for audio/input-output factors into overall experience of games. I mainly have noted the timing difference in my application (which is not a game).

 

Boulderdash does not use Rainbow fx for the diamonds... it's a simple 3 level colour animation...

[youki]

as for the games that can't be done on c64 (palete wise) here is one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fcvWjg2fvo

 

its an early prototype, but it should be ready soon

 

Very nice, i love the graphism and the style!!

[+CyranoJ]

Way to go, guys. Stay classy.

 

We will, and you stay under your bridge.