question about genesis redesign

[bradhig]

My cousin has the older version of the Sega Genesis and I have the newer slim version. What is the difference between the designs besides the size and why did Sega redesign the thing in the first place?

[Christophero Sly]

Probably to save manufacturing costs.

 

In general the Model 1's are said to have higher A/V quality than the model 2's. Although that's not always the case. You really have to go by the revision # on the main board.

[Ace_1]

Several major differences:

 

-No more headphone jack

-RF unit eliminated(now an external RF box that plugs into the A/V out)

-Piss-poor video quality with pixelated sprites and Top-Loader NES-style noise(not all Genesis Model 2s(that's the one you have, right?) are affected by the noise, but a vast majority of them are).

-Absolutely dreadful sound quality - LOADS of static, and the audio sometimes strains(it kind of crackles when that happens). Again, like with the piss-poor video, most Genesis Model 2s have DREADFUL audio, not all of them

 

The big issue with that revision of the Genesis is its disgusting video and audio quality, not just that it's bad, but that ALMOST EVERY SINGLE Genesis Model 2 in existence has either bad audio with good video, good audio with bad video, or both put together. I've only come across 4 Genesis Model 2s which had both good video and good audio, but then again, you have a problem with volume balance on some of the good audio Genesis Model 2s between the sound channels(FM is louder than the Genesis' PSG, the Sega CD's PCM, and the 32X's PWM), on top of Master System games sounding like @%!^ on them(though I may have a solution to that issue). It's hard to find a Genesis Model 2 that has good video and audio because most of them don't.

[Christophero Sly]

Of the Model 2's, the VA3 and VA4 revisions are said to have the best AV.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Christophero Sly

[bradhig]

How do I find out which model 2 version I have?

[guitarmas]

My cousin has the older version of the Sega Genesis and I have the newer slim version. What is the difference between the designs besides the size and why did Sega redesign the thing in the first place?

 

The newer slim versions don't have the z80 chip installed. I'm waiting for the z90 and z11 protocol but Sega and Eidos decided that fewer flops were better. It would be cool to play NES and SNES on the Genesis but the cartridge port only supports 1 game per session.

[Christophero Sly]

How do I find out which model 2 version I have?

You can tell if you have a VA3 or VA4 by the model # on the bottom. The VA3 is MK-1631. The VA4 is MK-1451.

[nathanallan]

hmm, of all six Model 2's I have here they are all 1631's. Odd that they are all the same models.

[Reaperman]

this last time I was on a genesis kick I got entirely too hung up on buying the one with the best video/audio/compatibility and I lost track of what really mattered--getting a genesis and playing games.

 

of course 3 genesis system purchases later I realize that my TV doesn't support genesis 240p mode, so I'm stuck with a sega nomad screen...

Edited December 21, 2008 by Reaperman

[Christophero Sly]

hmm, of all six Model 2's I have here they are all 1631's. Odd that they are all the same models.

I may be remembering the details wrong. On how many of those can you see metal shielding through the vents on the bottom? Edited December 21, 2008 by Christophero Sly

[nathanallan]

hmm, of all six Model 2's I have here they are all 1631's. Odd that they are all the same models.

I may be remembering the details wrong. On how many of those can you see metal shielding through the vents on the bottom?

Three of them are full board, three are 3/4. Another odd point!

 

Do the model 2 have replaceable fuses? I have one dead one that is a 3/4 board and would like to try to get it up again.

 

@reaper; I haven't got that particular hangup, I play whatever, they're all fun regardless of the output.;

[Christophero Sly]

hmm, of all six Model 2's I have here they are all 1631's. Odd that they are all the same models.

I may be remembering the details wrong. On how many of those can you see metal shielding through the vents on the bottom?

Three of them are full board, three are 3/4. Another odd point!

I guess the model # must only be part of how to identify a VA3. IIRC, the VA3 are 3/4. Edited December 21, 2008 by Christophero Sly

[Royalshin]

Here is the big diffrence.

 

1. SEGA redesigned it to keep costs high. It is what companies do to keep people buying the same product over and over agian.

 

2. The design resembles the PCE Super CD rom system. Which looks cool so SEGA tried to do it like that way. It is practically the same design. However the PCE is just so darn better infinitive times

 

3. They made it propertory. Meaning there is no other adapter that you could use ( unless you went to a sophisticated electronic store. ) with the Genesis II but the Genesis II kind. The original Genesis could use the PCE/ATARI/SMS video plugs and could use the same power AC a SNES, NES, PCE used.

 

4. On the third note. Since the Genesis II is a propertory system and could only use it's own connectors it was limited in Video and Audio Quality to. However this is only fact based on the propertory AV connectors. Meaning it has the same AV qaulity as a regular Genesis but if you could find other connectors that could work with it then you would get better qaulity AV.

 

5. The only other thing is the video modes and the Sega Master System/Mark III playback that differs. Otherwise this system is just as good as the original.

[guitarmas]

Here is the big diffrence.

 

1. SEGA redesigned it to keep costs high. It is what companies do to keep people buying the same product over and over agian.

 

2. The design resembles the PCE Super CD rom system. Which looks cool so SEGA tried to do it like that way. It is practically the same design. However the PCE is just so darn better infinitive times

 

3. They made it propertory. Meaning there is no other adapter that you could use ( unless you went to a sophisticated electronic store. ) with the Genesis II but the Genesis II kind. The original Genesis could use the PCE/ATARI/SMS video plugs and could use the same power AC a SNES, NES, PCE used.

 

4. On the third note. Since the Genesis II is a propertory system and could only use it's own connectors it was limited in Video and Audio Quality to. However this is only fact based on the propertory AV connectors. Meaning it has the same AV qaulity as a regular Genesis but if you could find other connectors that could work with it then you would get better qaulity AV.

 

5. The only other thing is the video modes and the Sega Master System/Mark III playback that differs. Otherwise this system is just as good as the original.

 

1. I know what you mean, I see the diffrence.

2. Getting propertory electronics is hard to do.

3. On a fourth note the a/v qaulity is even worse on a model 3.

[Royalshin]

Thank you for reminding me. The more smaller you make something the more the cost rises. With the idea to keep costs up ( as with the PS2 ) the parts would sapposively become more expensive produce in a smaller package. Meaning the more smaller you got with the system the more cost effective you had to be with price range of the parts.

 

What is kinda funny is how the CDX is practically the size of a CD player.

[Warriorisabouttodie]

I must be really lucky then. I have a model 1, II and 3. The Model 1 is great, of course, but the 2 has great audio and video (I use the AV that came with my model 3) and my model 3 looks and sounds great too on both my RCA CRT tv I use and a widescreen LCD.

 

I guess I got lucky 3 times in a row.

[gdement]

I have an early model-1 (1989) and what I think is an early model-2 (don't know exactly how early).

I had both connected to my Sega CD at different times. When I switched to using the model-2 I immediately noticed the inferior sound. The most obvious difference is when Sonic goes into time warp in the "Sonic CD" game. This is a loud sound effect on the model-1, but wimpy and muffled on my model-2. There's apparently a huge difference in the audio's dynamic range.

 

However, my early model-1 has always been a lemon, and just looking at it you can see some hokey modifications, like capacitors precariously mounted where no thru-hole was available. The board design was obviously flawed, but I think newer model-1's fixed that.

 

 

The newer slim versions don't have the z80 chip installed.

Just to make sure this is clear, while newer models don't have a discrete Z80 chip, the Z80 is still in there. They integrated it with another chip (not sure what) as one of the changes to cut costs.

Genesis games are programmed to use the Z-80 and won't work properly without it.

 

 

========

 

Basically I'd say the difference between model 1 vs 2 is that the model-2 represents newer manufacturing methods. Everything on those boards is surface mounted (I think), as opposed to the bulky DIP chips used on the model-1 boards. They were also able to integrate into fewer chips and removed/cheapened some features.

Fewer chips, smaller board, smaller case = less money.

Tom Kalinske (Sega of America CEO) was pushing hard to cut pricing on the Genesis. The price when he came in was $200 which he thought was too high.

[Mirage]

Thank you for reminding me. The more smaller you make something the more the cost rises.

 

Not when advancements over time are taken into consideration.

 

Companies often redesign a product later in its lifecycle to be smaller, and therefore cheaper to make. If they had made it smaller when the product was first introduced, yes, it would have been more expensive to make. But several years later, when the technology (and higher quantity runs) has advanced, they can make it smaller _and_ cheaper. Chips become smaller and thinner, multiple chips can be combined into one chip, eliminating sockets, etc etc... This can be seen in the Atari 2600, Intellivision, PS2, PS1/One redesigns, and many others. It's to reduce the cost of production to the company, and usually also reduces the cost to the consumer, since it's an older product, consumers are willing to pay less. This lengthens the life of the product in the market.

[Mirage]

Basically I'd say the difference between model 1 vs 2 is that the model-2 represents newer manufacturing methods. Everything on those boards is surface mounted (I think), as opposed to the bulky DIP chips used on the model-1 boards. They were also able to integrate into fewer chips and removed/cheapened some features.

Fewer chips, smaller board, smaller case = less money.

Tom Kalinske (Sega of America CEO) was pushing hard to cut pricing on the Genesis. The price when he came in was $200 which he thought was too high.

 

Yes, exactly. The redesign wasn't to increase costs, it was to reduce costs... I'm not sure why anyone would think that. Companies don't ever do that. That's just totally bass-ackwards.

[Royalshin]

Your not making any sense?

 

They simply redesigned the product to keep costs high on the cosumer end and made it appear smaller to make it look more high tech. They did not do it for the consumer they did it to keep people intrested in the product for there own profit.

The same for any other system rereleased over and over again.

 

This is what all people do to any hardware product to keep people buying the same product over and over agian. The same with Software products and how they add more features or make the GUI look diffrent.

 

Not when advancements over time are taken into consideration.

 

There has been barely any advancements in the assembly line for years other then it has become exceeding cost effective to mass produce smaller products. Just smaller chips being manufactured by smaller machines.

 

About one chiped systems. Your talking about substituting the actions of a original systems design. This is basic emulation that people have been doing for years on there PC's even before the 1990's.

[Mirage]

Your not making any sense?

 

They simply redesigned the product to keep costs high on the cosumer end and made it appear smaller to make it look more high tech. They did not do it for the consumer they did it to keep people intrested in the product for there own profit.

The same for any other system rereleased over and over again.

 

This is what all people do to any hardware product to keep people buying the same product over and over agian. The same with Software products and how they add more features or make the GUI look diffrent.

 

Not when advancements over time are taken into consideration.

 

There has been barely any advancements in the assembly line for years other then it has become exceeding cost effective to mass produce smaller products. Just smaller chips being manufactured by smaller machines.

 

About one chiped systems. Your talking about substituting the actions of a original systems design. This is basic emulation that people have been doing for years on there PC's even before the 1990's.

 

You're the one not making any sense. A little bit of what you're saying is true (of course the redesign was partially to renew interest in the systems), but in all those cases, it was also to reduce the build cost. And no, I'm not talking about emulation or "one-chip systems" like NES-on-a-chip, I'm talking about combining functions of multiple chips into fewer chips. This happens all the time. What you said about "it has become exceeding[ly] cost effective to mass produce smaller products" is exactly what I'm talking about... you make the point yourself, yet you argue with me and tell me I'm not making any sense. Yes, you have a couple good points that should be obvious, the the basic logic of what you're saying is backwards. And I will not reply to any more of your posts in any forums, because in every single thread, it's just not worth the effort.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Mirage1972

[Atariboy]

My cousin has the older version of the Sega Genesis and I have the newer slim version. What is the difference between the designs besides the size and why did Sega redesign the thing in the first place?

 

The newer slim versions don't have the z80 chip installed. I'm waiting for the z90 and z11 protocol but Sega and Eidos decided that fewer flops were better. It would be cool to play NES and SNES on the Genesis but the cartridge port only supports 1 game per session.

 

They all have Z80 functionality, they have to or they wouldn't play anything correctly.

[guitarmas]

My cousin has the older version of the Sega Genesis and I have the newer slim version. What is the difference between the designs besides the size and why did Sega redesign the thing in the first place?

 

The newer slim versions don't have the z80 chip installed. I'm waiting for the z90 and z11 protocol but Sega and Eidos decided that fewer flops were better. It would be cool to play NES and SNES on the Genesis but the cartridge port only supports 1 game per session.

 

They all have Z80 functionality, they have to or they wouldn't play anything correctly.

 

Sorry, please try again.

 

The Genesis 3 does not have the Z80 processor, and that means the following:

1. Unable to run the MS convertor as it needs the Z80 chip which is the brain of the SMS.

2. Unable to run Game Genie, the Z80 must have played a role in the use of this for code break ins.

3. Unable to run special games such as Sega's Virtua Racing, which again uses the Z80.

[Atariboy]

That's incorrect, the Genesis 3 has Z80 functionality built in, it has to since I believe that chip basically served as a sound chip for most Genesis titles. And someone has recently discovered how to rewire the internals to get things like Virtua Racing working correctly, it just wasn't wired up correctly to allow things like the Master System converter and Virtua Racing to work, which made people assume it wasn't there.

 

So I'm not the one that is wrong. You're regurgitating a legend that's been passed around the past decade that was solely based on things like Virtua Racing not working correctly. The Genesis 3 still retains Z80 functionality. Try disabling the Z80 in any Genesis emulator with almost any game and see how many sounds you still hear for some evidence of the need for it.

 

Here is a DigitalPress link about it, and there's countless other things out there on the internet to prove it, including YouTube videos of the Genesis 3 playing Virtua Racing and so on.

 

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread...ghlight=Genesis

Edited December 23, 2008 by Atariboy

[guitarmas]

That's incorrect, the Genesis 3 has Z80 functionality built in, it has to since I believe that chip basically served as a sound chip for most Genesis titles. And someone has recently discovered how to rewire the internals to get things like Virtua Racing working correctly, it just wasn't wired up correctly to allow things like the Master System converter and Virtua Racing to work, which made people assume it wasn't there.

 

So I'm not the one that is wrong. You're regurgitating a legend that's been passed around the past decade that was solely based on things like Virtua Racing not working correctly. The Genesis 3 still retains Z80 functionality. Try disabling the Z80 in any Genesis emulator with almost any game and see how many sounds you still hear for some evidence of the need for it.

 

Here is a DigitalPress link about it, and there's countless other things out there on the internet to prove it, including YouTube videos of the Genesis 3 playing Virtua Racing and so on.

 

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread...ghlight=Genesis

 

Huh....so the chip is actually still there but the logic of the circuitry hinders it from being compatible with other adapters....interesting.

 

I would really love to see picture of the actual modification done.

Edited December 23, 2008 by guitarmas