800XL vs 1200XL ?

[yorgle]

@fletch : it had not occurred to me there would be older games that would be incompatible, hmm. I guess there were no games that made use of the expanded memory on the 130xe. I am not yet using ios2osx, I'm waiting on my usb to serial dongle, then all bets are off and I'm going to really make use of my 8bit computers using my laptop. that combined with the catweasel 4+ and the ultra satan on my desktop pc t transfer files back and forth to various floppy formats, I can't wait.

 

@ mimo : thanks dude, I will. is there anyone here who can do a video mod for me for a few duckies or perhaps a trade of something? assuming the mod is beyond me, which it might not be. I should have a look at it I suppose before I go making offers

 

I've got a bunch of 1200xl s that I've decided to sell. I sold one to mimo and did the clearpic mod for him on that one. If you're interested, send me a pm.

[Bryan]

I remember messing with the 1200 video circuits a while back (and Bob is fully familiar with them). Atari tried to make the colors brighter by dropping the chroma level during the colorburst, then bringing the level up during the line. This has the effect of cranking the color knob on the TV, but it also exacerbates the problems with over-saturation of darker colors.

 

The solution of just yanking it all out is probably best. I've also messed with varying the color signal so the color amplitude follows the luminance. This gets rid of much of the color shadowing and brings it closer to being a proper video signal.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Who/What is The Ultrasatan?

[Bryan]

Who/What is The Ultrasatan?

I thought it was an ST hard drive interface.

[Mark Wolfe]

Who/What is The Ultrasatan?

I thought it was an ST hard drive interface.

 

 

yes it is, do a search in the ST forum for it, they are probably still taking pre-orders

 

it all ties in to my plan to have all my classic computers ready and able to play games on a whim rather than my taking so much time to get it all set up that I lose interest by the time that it is. and I am talking about the stresses we all probably face of having not only the space to set it up but a proper monitor and the means by which we can easily get a wide selection of games running on it. for me the space near my PC is just too cluttered so that really cuts down on the number of games i can run.

[+Stephen]

Who/What is The Ultrasatan?

I thought it was an ST hard drive interface.

 

 

yes it is, do a search in the ST forum for it, they are probably still taking pre-orders

 

it all ties in to my plan to have all my classic computers ready and able to play games on a whim rather than my taking so much time to get it all set up that I lose interest by the time that it is. and I am talking about the stresses we all probably face of having not only the space to set it up but a proper monitor and the means by which we can easily get a wide selection of games running on it. for me the space near my PC is just too cluttered so that really cuts down on the number of games i can run.

I cannot get an email reply from them - it says it has my email on file, but I cannot log in and cannot get my password sent. It's not hitting a spam filter (if it is, my ISP is blocking it before it hits my email).

 

Stephen Anderson

[Mark Wolfe]

Who/What is The Ultrasatan?

I thought it was an ST hard drive interface.

 

 

yes it is, do a search in the ST forum for it, they are probably still taking pre-orders

 

it all ties in to my plan to have all my classic computers ready and able to play games on a whim rather than my taking so much time to get it all set up that I lose interest by the time that it is. and I am talking about the stresses we all probably face of having not only the space to set it up but a proper monitor and the means by which we can easily get a wide selection of games running on it. for me the space near my PC is just too cluttered so that really cuts down on the number of games i can run.

I cannot get an email reply from them - it says it has my email on file, but I cannot log in and cannot get my password sent. It's not hitting a spam filter (if it is, my ISP is blocking it before it hits my email).

 

Stephen Anderson

 

I was able to log in no problem. the site says, it is still pre-order time and that money is not due until March at the earliest.

[Justin Payne]

So how much would it cost to bring up 1200XL to 800XL level? If it ain't that much, it seems the 1200XL ain't such a bad choice. I just wish Atari didn't try to save a few bucks by removing two joystick ports.

[Muzz73]

I used to have a 1200XL. I picked it up at a used computer store in perfect working order for $25 back in 1996-97. I got ready to start doing all manner of hardware hacks to it and started asking questiuons about it on usenet. There were a few people from Europe who asked me not to hack up such a beautiful machine, especially being that most of them had never even seen one up close. I agreed and gave it to a buddy who is a serious Atari collector in France and he was more than happy to get it.

 

I grabbed a used 800XL and that's what I've been using ever since. It has never let me down, but it's 30 years old, so I have a spare motherboard or two NIB, just in case...

 

So... my $0.02 on the matter? 1200XL = sexiest. 800XL = Best workhorse/daily beater.

[flashjazzcat]

So how much would it cost to bring up 1200XL to 800XL level? If it ain't that much, it seems the 1200XL ain't such a bad choice.

The most drastic job required to get the 1200XL on a par with the 800XL is the addition of a PBI port on the back. This requires the demolition of the rectifier and heatsink along the back side of the motherboard. Personally, I was glad to see the back of them, however, and the 1200XL (depending on who you get to do the work) can be modded beyond the spec of an 800XL with next to no impact on the case aesthetic. Once I got over the "it's too nice to mod" thing (and what swung it was that the 1200XL - for me - was virtually unusable in its stock condition), my modded 1200XL became the A8 I use every day for everything A8 related. It is peerless.

[+Stephen]

The most drastic job required to get the 1200XL on a par with the 800XL is the addition of a PBI port on the back. This requires the demolition of the rectifier and heatsink along the back side of the motherboard. Personally, I was glad to see the back of them <SNIP>

I assume you now run it via the standard DIN5 power plug? I know the 400/800 used 12V, I have not measured the PS on the 1200XL. Is +5VDC all that is needed?

[ricortes]

Kind of ironic the 1200XL is considered to valuable to hack now.

 

As far as the Zombie question, about $20 with no upper limit. It's ~$20 for anything you would want to do. For instance the thing is fully socketed so on the real cheap/simple, you could replace the OS ROMs with a more vigorous version. Requires two 64k EPROMs if you want to keep it simple. Depending on the MB, you may have to switch a few jumpers.

 

If you want more 800XL compatibility, you can replace the PAL with one of the later versions. I think Myatari.com or Best sells them. I haven't checked in a number of years, last time I looked ~$8.

 

You don't need the new PAL to run a memory expansion like a RAMBO. If you can't roll your own, there are people that sell various expansions. If you go the Rambo route, you have to add the price of eight 256k DRAMS. Probably about $60 total.

 

If you want to add anything on the SIO bus that takes power from the bus, you have to jumper a current limiting resistor.

 

None of those mods require irreversible changes. Pretty much just put things back the way they were before.

 

I just opened/started my old faithful 1200XL for the first time in 20 years yesterday. I didn't check all the parts but I have a 256k memory expansion, two built in OS, built in BASIC. I actually like the 9VAC power supply over the XL/XE DIN types. I've never had a 1200XL power supply short out and burn out the MB. Same can't be said for the XL/XE types.

 

There are some things that are horrible on the 1200XL like the composite video output is the worst. The cartridge slot is a tight fit so some don't fit. If you just count what you pick up, I am maybe into mine for <$200. I actually paid retail for items like the OMNIMON OS chip from B&C. Amortized since the 80's, it isn't a lot to spend on a yearly basis.

[flashjazzcat]

I assume you now run it via the standard DIN5 power plug? I know the 400/800 used 12V, I have not measured the PS on the 1200XL. Is +5VDC all that is needed?

Yeah: I removed the entire power supply circuit and fitted a DIN5. 5V DC is all that's needed. Electrically, the machine is now effectively an 800XL.

[Justin Payne]

The reason why I asked is that 3 people are selling them on the local Craigslist. Other than the look, I was never really interested in them but if it wasn't too much to mod one, that might change things. Of couse, the three people seem to be wanting a lot more than I'm willing to spend. It's just funny that they are considered rare and they three show up locally.

I'm still more interested in the ol' 800, since that was my first but I'm not too picky just as long as I could play most games off it...or even newly developed ones. I'm patent so I'm sure the right deal will come along eventally.

[flashjazzcat]

I've noticed a sudden upsurge in the number of 1200XLs for sale. Sign of the times...

[Stormtrooper of Death]

I can buy an NTSC 1200XL from a Dutch guy. He asks 200 euros. Is 200 euros too much, or fair ? The 1200XL is in original state.

[Rybags]

IMO way too much. You could probably get one from the US in the $40-$50range easily. Throw in maybe $50 for delivery to EU.

 

So, around $100 US - translates to about 70 Euro.

Uses same PS as the 400/800 or 1050, no point shipping the US PS, just use your local one or mod for 5V as per Jons description.

[tschak909]

So how much would it cost to bring up 1200XL to 800XL level? If it ain't that much, it seems the 1200XL ain't such a bad choice. I just wish Atari didn't try to save a few bucks by removing two joystick ports.

That's not why they removed the two joystick ports.

 

The Joystick ports are wired (after a tiny fashion), to one of the two 6520 Peripheral Interface Adaptors, to their data ports. Two joysticks can be wired to one PIA (4 bits per joystick). The PIA at that time, was a $4 part.

 

When the XL came into being, they had a bit of a conundrum:

 

They needed:

 

* LED control so that the two LED's specified by the 1200XL could be flipped on/off

* The ability to change memory maps if, the self test needed to be swapped in, or if the operating system needed to be swapped out (e.g. to access all 64K of RAM).

 

In other systems, such as the Commodore 64, this was done via a programmable logic array (PLA), or equivalent. In the Atari, the PIA's data ports are used as switches to the MMU to perform these memory map changes.

 

So rather than add an ADDITIONAL PIA to handle this (For a consumer product, adding $4 to the cost of parts is a substantial investment!), they decided to use the second PIA to handle these functions. As not many games need four joystick ports, Atari figured that it was an acceptable compromise.

 

-Thom

[flashjazzcat]

That's not why they removed the two joystick ports.

 

The Joystick ports are wired (after a tiny fashion), to one of the two 6520 Peripheral Interface Adaptors, to their data ports. Two joysticks can be wired to one PIA (4 bits per joystick). The PIA at that time, was a $4 part.

 

When the XL came into being, they had a bit of a conundrum:

 

They needed:

 

* LED control so that the two LED's specified by the 1200XL could be flipped on/off

* The ability to change memory maps if, the self test needed to be swapped in, or if the operating system needed to be swapped out (e.g. to access all 64K of RAM).

 

In other systems, such as the Commodore 64, this was done via a programmable logic array (PLA), or equivalent. In the Atari, the PIA's data ports are used as switches to the MMU to perform these memory map changes.

 

So rather than add an ADDITIONAL PIA to handle this (For a consumer product, adding $4 to the cost of parts is a substantial investment!), they decided to use the second PIA to handle these functions. As not many games need four joystick ports, Atari figured that it was an acceptable compromise.

So in other words, removing two joystick ports saved a few bucks.

[Justin Payne]

Hey, the was $4 in the early 80's. Do you know how many leg warmers and Rubik's you could buy with that kinda cash back then.

Even after that cost cutting tactic you would think 1200 sales would have shot through the roof. What did they call it? The Edsel?

[russg]

So in other words, removing two joystick ports saved a few bucks.

I don't think so. It was decided to put BASIC internal, so PORTB was used to turn BASIC on and off. PORTB was used to control the 1200XL LEDs. PORTB also is used in the 130XE for bank switching. Custom

memory enhancements also use the bits of PORTB. I'm not good enough to tell if there were/are alternatives for memory control instead of PORTB. The self test, also relies on PORTB.

PORTA/B are on the PIA chip $D300-$D3FF, so I think it is a unique ability to control expansions and memory access.

Uhm. I guess 1200XL doesn't have BASIC built in.

Edited May 22, 2014 by russg

[flashjazzcat]

Right: so production costs would have been reduced if they'd found a way to add RAM while keeping the other two joystick ports. I understand now.

[russg]

Right: so production costs would have been reduced if they'd found a way to add RAM while keeping the other two joystick ports. I understand now.

I think you're saying that production costs were reduced by not having the four joy ports. I guess I don't follow. I'm just saying I don't think production cost reduction was the deciding factor in deleting ports 3/4. It may have

resulted in cost saving, but I don't think that was it.

 

I think the 600XL and the 400 were marketing strategies and cost saving. The absence of monitor port can only be cost saving, I can't think of another excuse for no monitor port.

The 600XL has the monitor port on the motherboard, just a bunch of empty solder points, so some genius decided to not put the port in, as you say, to save a few pennies (not even a dollar I bet.)

And the 1060 (?) 64K memory expansion for the 600XL was a reason to have only 16k. It is really simple to make 600XL 64K. There were marketing strategies that don't make much sense.

The genius(es) that came up with these gimmicks were probably paid more than the schemes cost savings. ( I call them 'bean counters'.)

Edited May 23, 2014 by russg

[russg]

I think you're saying that production costs were reduced by not having the four joy ports. I guess I don't follow. I'm just saying I don't think production cost reduction was the deciding factor in deleting ports 3/4. It may have

resulted in cost saving, but I don't think that was it.

 

I think the 600XL and the 400 were marketing strategies and cost saving. The absence of monitor port can only be cost saving, I can't think of another excuse for no monitor port.

The 600XL has the monitor port on the motherboard, just a bunch of empty solder points, so some genius decided to not put the port in, as you say, to save a few pennies (not even a dollar I bet.)

And the 1060 (?) 64K memory expansion for the 600XL was a reason to have only 16k. It is really simple to make 600XL 64K. There were marketing strategies that don't make much sense.

The genius(es) that came up with these gimmicks were probably paid more than the schemes cost savings. ( I call them 'bean counters'.)

(Talks to hisself). If the 600XL had 64K and a monitor port, it would have been preferred over the 800XL, so that wouldn't have worked. I don't know, then, what advantage the 800XL would have had.

Then the XEs came out. I've never seen much use of the extra memory, just a few Bob Puff programs and maybe Atariwriter Plus. There's maybe a few demos that require it.

Edited May 24, 2014 by russg

[Stormtrooper of Death]

My Phantasy demo makes use of 128K in some parts of the digital soundtracks.... (if you have only 64K the soundtrack uses less audio samples....)

Edited May 24, 2014 by Stormtrooper of Death