PCB s for 8-bit ATARI

[MEtalGuy66]

These by far are the worst quality PCBs Ive ever seen.

 

My Weller Digital temp controlled iron, set at 500 degrees will literally MELT THROUGH the solder pads if you arent careful.

Most solder these days melts at around 450 degrees, so this leaves a very slim margin for working with these boards, and if you dont have a temp controlled iron, you better not attempt to solder/desolder anything from it.

 

The boards I get from Sunstone Circuits will withstand 900 degrees+ (as high as my iron goes) with no problems whatsoever.. I also use this same iron for desoldering/soldering entire 130xe motherboards pretty reugularly (Ive got 3 of them Im working on for people right now).. No problems whatsoever, even on 130xe boards which are notorious for "lifting traces"... But on the Lotharek stereo pokey board, I cant touch a solder pad without melting through "into the green stuff"..

 

I dont wanna bad-mouth anyone's work, but this is the truth..

 

Lotherek, you need to find a better PCB manufacturer.

Edited December 25, 2009 by MEtalGuy66

[Littlejohn]

My Weller Digital temp controlled iron, set at 500 degrees will literally MELT THROUGH the solder pads if you arent careful.

Most solder these days melts at around 450 degrees, so this leaves a very slim margin for working with these boards, and if you dont have a temp controlled iron, you better not attempt to solder/desolder anything from it.

 

The boards I get from Sunstone Circuits will withstand 900 degrees+ (as high as my iron goes) with no problems whatsoever.. I also use this same iron for desoldering/soldering entire 130xe motherboards pretty reugularly (Ive got 3 of them Im working on for people right now).. No problems whatsoever, even on 130xe boards which are notorious for "lifting traces"... But on the Lotharek stereo pokey board, I cant touch a solder pad without melting through "into the green stuff"..

 

I respectfully disagree. Not on the quality of the boards in question, but in the statement of soldering technique. I produce a lot of new components (boards) for the Apple II line of computers and my digital soldering station is NEVER set higher than 400 degrees. I can't even fathom using a 900 degree iron on anything electronic. Even the boards that have components populated by factories are only soldered at 375 degrees.

[mikey]

guys, all the stuff produced by lotharek or zaxon are projects of someone else, i mean the original work, perhaps they do 'laying out' and stuff,

but my point is that the documentation is available, so do yer own gerbers, find a pcbhouse near you, and off you go.

 

That's not magic, I started with electronics just some 2 months ago, and I can do it, so everyone can.

cheers

[MEtalGuy66]

 

I respectfully disagree. Not on the quality of the boards in question, but in the statement of soldering technique. I produce a lot of new components (boards) for the Apple II line of computers and my digital soldering station is NEVER set higher than 400 degrees. I can't even fathom using a 900 degree iron on anything electronic. Even the boards that have components populated by factories are only soldered at 375 degrees.

 

Dude.. Why are you starting an argument over something you (obviously) know nothing about? Your an idiot if you think anyone is running a reflow machine at less than 400 degrees.. Most lead free solder on the market has a melting point of around 450, and with ANY solder (as anyone knows who has any experience whatsoever) The heat that it melts at is quite a bit lower than the heat that it flows efficiently at.. eg, you need to exceed that by a minimum of 50-100 degrees to get a "good hot" solder joint, with maximum penetration and adhesion...

 

Also, my point is that many people do not have temp controlled irons.. Go buy a non temp controlled iron, let it heat up and measure what the temperature is at the tip, wise-guy....

 

I dont routinely solder anything at 900 degrees... That just happens to be the highest setting my iron will do, and Yeah, Ive tested the boards I have made & sell at temps even higher that that.... With no delamination... not even discoloration..

 

As far as you building lots of apple 2 crap... Good for you... Ive been building & repairing PCBs since the 80s... non-stop.. I think I know what temperature ranges will/won't cause problems..

 

If you go read the threads in this forum about desoldering, youve got CLassics (the owner/proprietor of atarimax) reccomending temperatures of at LEAST 500-600 degrees for desoldering CHIPS from atari boards.. Hes another guy whose been doingthis longer than youve been alive...

 

Point blank.. Those boards are junk.. I'd stake my reputation on it..

 

(do a search on here and see how much shit I have produced, sold, and custom built for people, just in the last few years. You dont have time to read it all, I promise.)

[mikey]

peace maybe one of you talks Fahrenheit, and the other one Celsius?

[lotharek]

ok.

first of all I am alive

 

I have very quite busy month - new depot opening in my work, some goverment approvals etc etc, 60 hxc in free time soldering..

 

i`ll be back with manual and simm adapter online soon...

 

sorry for all non answered messages - simple nick of time...

 

Metalguy -- first of all i`d like to thank for Your opinion about the pcbs.. You know, my slodering iron (ayouge s. station) also reaches higher temps (900) but i use 700-750 and no probs so far.

 

quality of the boards - i assume You have ordered some pcbs in company i cooperate with if You are saying quaility is shitty ???

 

Board form picture is tested prototype and I can quarantee it works.

 

****

 

anyway, i posted here short manual about 800xl upgrade... all information needed are included.

 

conecetion to simm - you may follow to 65 xe manual form www

 

 

 

regards, lothar

Edited December 25, 2009 by lotharek

[Littlejohn]

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Dude.. Why are you starting an argument over something you (obviously) know nothing about? Your an idiot...

 

Also, my point is that many people do not have temp controlled irons.. Go buy a non temp controlled iron, let it heat up and measure what the temperature is at the tip, wise-guy....

 

As far as you building lots of apple 2 crap... Good for you... Ive been building & repairing PCBs since the 80s... non-stop.. I think I know what temperature ranges will/won't cause problems..

 

I was not wanting to start an argument, as you can tell by my first statement.

 

I was just disagreeing with you.

 

You are the one that started the name calling.

[MEtalGuy66]

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Dude.. Why are you starting an argument over something you (obviously) know nothing about? Your an idiot...

 

Also, my point is that many people do not have temp controlled irons.. Go buy a non temp controlled iron, let it heat up and measure what the temperature is at the tip, wise-guy....

 

As far as you building lots of apple 2 crap... Good for you... Ive been building & repairing PCBs since the 80s... non-stop.. I think I know what temperature ranges will/won't cause problems..

 

I was not wanting to start an argument, as you can tell by my first statement.

 

I was just disagreeing with you.

 

You are the one that started the name calling.

Well, Im sorry for the abrasive language.. But what you said is not accurate by a longshot.. (unless maybe you are talking centigrade.. here in the states, you should be dealing in faherenheit, where temperature measurements are concerned.)

 

Lotharek- REALLY. Im telling you with all due respect, This board I have in my posession (that came from you) is really terrible quality... I would not open my mouth if it was even marginal.. The solder pads melt through and delaminate at any temperature high enough to melt normal 60/40 LEAD based solder.. To populate the board, I had to heat the component legs, being careful not to touch the board, itself, and allow the solder to flow down the leg of the component onto the pads.. Because touching the pads caused them to instantly melt through or delaminate off the board completely.. This is not acceptable to me..

[lotharek]

Metalguy - meybe Your s. sation`s temp is to high..maybe Your solder station dispaly indicates to low temp ??

 

i have just done some temp tests and 890F melts nothing..except (what is name of soldering material in eglish??)

[mikey]

tadam.wav SOLDER

[candle]

Ken,

i never had the opportunity of looking at lotharek's work other than on pictures, so i can't tell whether PCB quality is poor or not

but

for most of the work i use again aoyue 968 smd rework station (as the nameplate says), and i need to set it for 800F to get decent results with standard soldering iron

as for hot air part i usually work with 650F setting - this is for leaded solder, lead free is much harder to work with - at leasst with the kind of setup i have

as for quality of my work, or the techniqe i use, You can always make a visit to Warerat, or ask for his opinion

i can hardly belive that board would delaminate at 500F - only possibility would be that drill bit in cnc drill was dull and it was overheated back then

another thing is that with cheaper board manufacturers soldermask quality and durability is quite low - i've experienced this myself, but i still use this board house for not dense designs

[+Stephen]

The only lotharek board I can speak for is his Covox audio board. I assembled one of those with zero problems. It was all SMD work.

 

Stephen Anderson

[MEtalGuy66]

Ken,

i never had the opportunity of looking at lotharek's work other than on pictures, so i can't tell whether PCB quality is poor or not

but

for most of the work i use again aoyue 968 smd rework station (as the nameplate says), and i need to set it for 800F to get decent results with standard soldering iron

as for hot air part i usually work with 650F setting - this is for leaded solder, lead free is much harder to work with - at leasst with the kind of setup i have

 

Yep.. Sounds perfectly reasonable...

 

as for quality of my work, or the techniqe i use, You can always make a visit to Warerat, or ask for his opinion

I can tell by the pictures of your work that you do indeed have a decent grasp of soldering/assembly techiniques.. i dont need to see it in person..

i can hardly belive that board would delaminate at 500F - only possibility would be that drill bit in cnc drill was dull and it was overheated back then

another thing is that with cheaper board manufacturers soldermask quality and durability is quite low - i've experienced this myself, but i still use this board house for not dense designs

Welp, Im here to tell you.. On this one, the metal actually melts through and/or comes completely off the board at very low (relatively speaking) temperature..

My solder station is a Weller with digital temp control.. I really DOUBT it is "way out of callibration".. I use it quite regularly on a wide variety of PCBs of varying quality, with no problems whatsoever... And actually, based on what it does/doesnt melt, its pretty easy to judge whether or not the temperature is accurate.. And it seems to be pretty damn close to what it's alwayse been (and others like it that I've owned).. As I said, I have quite a few projects Im working on right now, involving both older, lesser quality PCBs and brand new PCBs of newer/better process quality.. My soldering station does not cause any undue effects to any of these boards.. Nor has it ever in the past..

 

Candle, I respect your oppinion 100%, based on your work.. And if you saw this board, you'd agree with me..

[candle]

Ken, to cut the discussion - could You post a picture of it?

I highly doubt that a man that assembled a pile of MIO devices would delaminate decent board when soldering

[flashjazzcat]

anyway, i posted here short manual about 800xl upgrade... all information needed are included.

Where???

[MEtalGuy66]

Ken, to cut the discussion - could You post a picture of it?

I highly doubt that a man that assembled a pile of MIO devices would delaminate decent board when soldering

Yeah.. I have one of those digital microscopes thats real good for taking extreme close-up shots of stuff like this.. Give me a few days for the holiday events to wind-down, and Ill break it out and show you what I'm talking about..

[flashjazzcat]

anyway, i posted here short manual about 800xl upgrade... all information needed are included.

Where???

I must be missing something here. Had Lotharek indended to attach something to his original post? I guess I'll just figure it out myself.

 

As for the quality of the boards, I'm a layman as far as this is concerned but I've had no trouble fitting either the 1MB XE RAM board or the INTSDX. I use a low wattage iron for soldering and desoldering and I don't think I've ever been close to damaging one of the boards.

 

Can anyone post a quick explanation (translation) of the refresh cycle mod necessary for the XL to work with a SIMM?

 

And Lotharek: Is this (below) supposed to fit under two socketed 16-pin ICs, or is it for the 2 chip XE upgrade? Quite confused with some parts of my magical mystery pack of bits.

 

Edited December 26, 2009 by flashjazzcat

[lotharek]

it is for 800 xl / 65 xe with 1bit memories...

 

 

1. desolder 2 of 8 memory chips..(some of higher ones belwo modulator)

2. solder into atari board 2 precision sockets.

3. look at the holes in simm holder pcb

4. fit another precision sockets trough simm holder so they fit inside sockets soldered into atari board

 

 

ps. it is sth like sandwich : socket, simm holder pcb, socket --- in that way that sockets is plugged into socket with pcb between them

 

5. solder 6 wires form 6 holes in the middle to the rest of memory chips pins 2 - DATA LINES - this way You will supply all d0-d7 to simm

 

6. solder wires from simm adapter to pcb under PIA

 

7. below simm are 3 holes -- connect the left 2...i will expalin later -- just check that there is connection between memory pin 4 and sim pin 27 (RAS)

 

 

ps. You will get form me newee version - completly out of charge...for testing and fun - but....it will not be this week anyway

 

 

 

 

.....

 

manual is almost ready...but i have rewritten jedec for gal for 16v8 and now testing... i`d like to use just one g22v10 for whole logic... first tests show it is possible...

Edited December 26, 2009 by lotharek

[candle]

those two precision socket placed on adaptor board SHOULD BE SOLDERED IN, there is no free ride here - if one won't do this, one will have intermediate effetcts

best way to do it is using 0.25mm solder, fine tip soldering iron and a lot of flux (rf800 or similiar, so it would easly penetrate the space between socket and adaptor holes

[lotharek]

yes, of course, thnx Candle.. i forgot to write about it.

[flashjazzcat]

it is for 800 xl / 65 xe with 1bit memories...

 

 

1. desolder 2 of 8 memory chips..(some of higher ones belwo modulator)

2. solder into atari board 2 precision sockets.

3. look at the holes in simm holder pcb

4. fit another precision sockets trough simm holder so they fit inside sockets soldered into atari board

 

 

ps. it is sth like sandwich : socket, simm holder pcb, socket --- in that way that sockets is plugged into socket with pcb between them

 

5. solder 6 wires form 6 holes in the middle to the rest of memory chips pins 2 - DATA LINES - this way You will supply all d0-d7 to simm

 

6. solder wires from simm adapter to pcb under PIA

 

7. below simm are 3 holes -- connect the left 2...i will expalin later -- just check that there is connection between memory pin 4 and sim pin 27 (RAS)

 

 

ps. You will get form me newee version - completly out of charge...for testing and fun - but....it will not be this week anyway

 

 

 

 

.....

 

manual is almost ready...but i have rewritten jedec for gal for 16v8 and now testing... i`d like to use just one g22v10 for whole logic... first tests show it is possible...

OK - that's fairly clear. An I assume I need to do the timing mod as well (which I'm trying to decypher from Polish). I think I'll wait till I have all the information before proceeding. It's kind of like a treasure hunt, this. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the manual and more bits to test. It's appreciated and I have an XL and XE which are effectively test-beds.

[lotharek]

not exactly...

 

i have noticed when you take phi2 form pia, timing mod is not required. i have 800 xl taht works without mod

[flashjazzcat]

I have noticed when you take phi2 form pia, timing mod is not required. i have 800 xl taht works without mod

OK. I've just had the cupboard apart and have found my last four 16 pin sockets. I'll socket the two RAM chips and fit things together before bothering with any timing mods. I'll go as far as I can get through the instructions you've provided so far and then post a photo so you can tell me what I've done wrong.

 

Last night I desoldered and socketed ANTIC on the 65XE board I'm going to move VBXE into and it took thirty minutes. The OS ROM chip needs to come out today, and INTSDX needs desoldering from the other board. I've just fitted a new tip on the Antex iron...

 

Ah well... sockets are the wrong type (not high enough), so I'll have to order some.

Edited December 27, 2009 by flashjazzcat

[flashjazzcat]

Had to re-seat a couple of components to make room for the SIMM adapter, but it looks quite neat in place:

 

 

All I've done so far is wire up the data lines as Lotharek described. As for all but a handful of the other connections, I'm stumped. The 65XE instructions refer to a machine equipped with a FREDDIE chip, which this 800XL apparently isn't. So I await proper instructions.

 

I managed to snap a pin clean off the original MMU chip (CO61618, visible lying prostate at back of photo) while removing it (first time I've ever managed that), so I had to rob one from my other 800XL. So I'll eventually be needing another MMU chip.

Edited December 30, 2009 by flashjazzcat

[lotharek]

Flashjazzcat :

 

short manual here :

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/151629-atari-800-xl-1-mb-board-for-freddy-and-non-freddy-comps/page__p__1853169__fromsearch__1entry1853169

 

 

1. remove simm form socket

2. folllow manual

 

let me know

 

 

anyway, meanwhile, I have done smoe major changes in 1mb simm expansion

 

All You need is gal22v10 chip (soon tests with 20v8) and simm to build functionall 1mb in atari

 

 

below pins desciption, jedec files attached, also newest board for 800 xl and 65 xe without exp slot

 

 

as soon as i fnish tests with new boards, manuals and kits will available.....(i hope 2 weeks)

 

also, simm adapter has been redesigned.. And that is all folks (hopefully) in the topic of simm expansion for 800xl from me for now - now lots of testing and ....YES - desoldering all previous versions and soldering back new ones...eehhhh....i love this and i wish a dobe has 36 hours at least..

 

 

GAL22v10

 

 

PIN 1= ras;

PIN 2 = i2 ; /* ref */

PIN 3 = i8 ; /* cas */

PIN 4 = i9 ; /* Memory enable */

PIN 5= pb1;

PIN 6 = i5 ; /* PB2 */

PIN 7 = i6 ; /* PB3 */

PIN 8 = i7 ; /* PB4 */

pin 9= pb5;

pin 10= pb6;

pin 11= pb7;

 

PIN 13 = f21 ; /* PHI2 */

PIN 14 = o18 ; /* XA14 */

PIN 15 = o19 ; /* XA15 */

PIN 16 = i3 ; /* A14 */

PIN 17 = i4 ; /* A15 */

PIN 18 = o17 ; /* cas64 */

PIN 19 = sa9;

PIN 20 = sa8;

PIN 21 = o16 ; /* cas2simm */

PIN 22 = map;

PIN 23 = be;

 

 

JEDEC FILE