Dreamcast was better than the PS2

[ninermaniac]

It also seems that DC had so much better development attributes when it came to the games. GD roms were very smart on their part to use but pirating ultimately did play a huge part on their sales. Though copying was not made too easy, once it went online with all it's capabilties in HIGH SPEED is what I believe killed it. There just wasn't a stable program to control what could or couldn't be downloaded like the Wii or Xbox has. PS2, blah. I never got into it. I really never gave it much of a chance as I just always liked the DC better. Japan made it so much better for the DC with all the great stuff it came out with. A simple but hard to get MOD chip and a connection to the Japanese DC market and you got it made. (Or you could invest in a Treamcast. ) Awesome system by the way even though it is an Unofficial DC item it's simply better then the PS2. Every DC game made can be played through this gem and that's the way you buy it. Eatcha heart out PS2!!!

Edited March 30, 2009 by ninermaniac

[CGQuarterly]

I have and enjoy both systems and would have a hard time picking one over the other. Dreamcast is definitely better for the hardcore arcade-style gamer. The Dreamcast is definitely a better "pick up and play" system, but also had some good in-depth games. It's a real shame that it didn't get to live out a normal life-cycle so we could have seen what else it could do. If I had to give up wither system there are games that I would really miss.

 

Something no one has mentioned yet that I think is one of the DC's greatest strengths is that most of the games are progressive scan-capable. My DC is hooked up with a VGA adapter, so I get to enjoy most of the games in 480p which makes them look really nice. At some point I'm going to get an RGB cable for it and see how it looks that way, since those arcade ports were displayed in RGB at the arcades. My PS2 isn't getting any play time right now and won't until I get an RGB cable for it.

 

Chris

[Artlover]

It also seems that DC had so much better development attributes when it came to the games. GD roms were very smart on their part to use but pirating ultimately did play a huge part on their sales.

I still call BS on that. They didn't even have the console numbers there to show it was popular platform.

 

Besides, thanks to the GameCube, we can pretty much eliminate any and all anti-piracy arguments once and for all.

 

GameCube was not successfully pirated till late in it's life. Effectively speaking, not till 2005 when the first mod chips started shipping. (Modchips were only just being devised experimentaly during the last couple of months of 2004 and didn't go into wide production till like Dec '04 and into '05). What this means is that the ONLY way you could get/play games on it for 3+ years was by buying them. (Ignoring the PSOL loader garbage which was not easy nor effective). Despite this, and looking at cumalitive sales numbers upto the end of 2004 (before the modchips were commercially available) it's software sales numbers were slightly less then the Xbox which was pirated up the ying-yang nearly right out of the gate. And before anyone goes there, comparing the number of GC consoles sold vs Xbox consoles sold shows they were about the same, so one can't even claim any market presence/demand issues skewing the numbers. (To this end, we can see that the PS2 had a signifigantly higher rate of software sales year end 2004 which coincides with having sold more consoles and having a higher market presence (PS2 was also pirated up the ying-yang BTW) so the numbers obviously conform to a logical scale).

 

So, what can we learn from those facts: Piracy doesn't effect software sales, market presence does. - A big heart felt thanks to Nintendo for "proving" this.

 

The Dreamcast did not have a strong market presence.

[famicommander]

There were dozens of factors involved with the failure of the Dreamcast (third party support, PS2 hype, single analog stick, outdated media format, SEGA's reputation after multiple failed systems, marketing, Shenmue's development costs, no backwards compatibility, Majora's Mask and Final Fantasy IX releasing, etc).

 

But to say piracy wasn't a contributor is absolutely insane. Piracy certainly wasn't the only factor, and it definitely wasn't the biggest. But you can't say with a straight face that the ability to easily acquire a game for free won't affect its performance in the marketplace. Piracy was ONE of many contributing factors to the demise of SEGA as a console manufacturer.

[shadow460]

Where's my Raiden on the DC?

 

I noticed that many, if not all the racing games I've played on the DC are silky smooth and fast. I am hard pressed to find jaggies or slowdown outside of Hydro Thunder's two player mode. Virtual On has me convinced that it's arcade perfect, but I haven't played the arcade of Oratorio Tangram, so I don't know.

 

By contrast, Gran Turismo 3 looks horrid on the PS2. Now Gran Turismo was not know for it's stellar graphics up to that point, either. Look at the fence as you thunder down Super Speedway's back straight, and watch how the jaggies and the faces appear and disappear. That's not the only course which seems to lack anti aliasing. Mistakes were left in the game when it shipped, too. The final turn of Tokyo Route 246 was left at too tight a radius and later on it was widened a bit for the next semi-release. I thought it was fine in GT3, but still I don't like seeing it have to be changed in mid course. Apricot Hill was changed between GT3 and GT4 so that the S curve shortcut didn't work as well. I realize race courses evolve in real life, but how fast did something like Brands Hatch or Suzuka evolve to their present forms? Bristol? It seems the time span between GT3 and 4 should be negligible, since they span across decade of racing, but it's not. If it is, why not leave options for the earlier tracks? And where the blank is Special Stage Route 11?

 

Control wise, the Saturn had analog triggers before the Dreamcast did, and they are put to good use in games like Sega Touring Car and Daytona USA CCE. The PS2 has a similar function in the pressure sensitive L and R controls, this time used in the craptacular wipEout fusion.

 

All that said, I have very few games for either system. I've got slightly more DC games than PS2. I have zero GameCube or xbox games. (Is it xbox or XBOX?)

[S1500]

I bought a DC for 50 bucks when it went on clearance, and a handful of games. Demolition Racer: No Exit was real fun. The other racing games I tried(vanishing point, sega GT) didn't hold my attention. It was a great console overall, with the fun VMU, etc. Just wish the game support was better. No complaints about the graphics whatsoever. It had real analog triggers, great for those driving games.

[atarian63]

ps2 had the worst graphics of that gen yet it still won.kinda like the wii is doing this gen!

True but they are good enough and the controller is unique and the games are fun!

[ninermaniac]

Fair enough on some points but some forget that the Dreamcast was only decommisioned in the US in 2001. It lasted up until 2006 in Japan and far as I know they still come up with private games for the unit. Some will not consider that factor because the Japanese gots their stuff together when it comes to the gaming industry and only will consider US NTSC items. Japan has given this little gem many goodies not considered in the US. I spent a whole lot of time in Japan while I was in the Marine Corps and passed on many sweet items because of the price. They see US money they go ape. I did aquire a lot of stuff I couldn't bring back because of customs issues. So you see the Dreamcast didn't just die. It was nicely picked up by a county who only has a minor difference in capatability. I know that marketing took a nice chunk out of profits that didn't help but SEGA did realize there was a market in other countries. I do think that There are many factors and I was just throwing one out there so don't get upset becasue someone had an opinion on one of MANY factors. Going online was I believe their biggest drop in success to the console as many saw a nice opportunity to capatalize on that as the WWW was the big thing and expense to this was phenominal in a company who's use of this was turned into opportunity to turn the tables in piracy instead of gaming. I don't think there is a single defining item that would sum up the demise of this wonderful gaming piece of equipment. I don't BS. I just have an opinion like everyone else. I may be misinformed in many ways but that is what makes me think the way I do. Am I a little crazy. Nah, just a maniac.

[atarian63]

We didn't destroy Sega, Sega destroyed Sega.

They claim piracy killed it. Tho it's funny. The Dreamcast is the one system I own the most legimiate copies of games for and the system I pirated the least. I was still buying legimiate copies of games as late as 2006 from places that still sold them (GameXchange of OKC, OK - best damn VG store I've ever been in, ever, anywhere!)

 

Truth is, mismangement, like you said. Sega started having those issues back in the Genesis days.

 

Lets milk it and stall for time while we figure out what we want to do for the next console by releasing goofy gimicky add-ons that we aren't going to support and drop like a rock a year from now. We think we know what the PSX is, quick, patch the Saturn up, release it early, charge too much and drop support for Gen/CD/X32. The DC's ready. Great, drop all support for the Saturn and get it out there now before everything else.

 

Thing is, a lot of people didn't want to buy another Sega console at this point because they knew Sega was going to shaft them. Stores too, Sega increasingly found it difficult to get shelf space because stores were tired of being backed logged with abandonded hardware. The die-hard fanbase just isn't big enough to support a hardware company with. And in following with tradition, shafted DC owners by killing it early in it's life cycle.

 

I'm a Sega fan, and they made great hardware, but they were still a bunch of royal f--k ups in how they handled everything.

 

I love my PS2, if not just for the few games on there I will always cherish. But honestly, I like my DC better, and I have more games by far on there that i think are timeless than the ps2 hands down.

I hear that. To this day, I still play my DC more then my PS2. Large library of well done games of all genres and relatively low percentage of crap. Just last night I was playing Chu Chu Rocket. * Mouse Mania! * Hot damn. Squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak. Over 600 mice in my ship. * Cat Attack! * Noooooooooooooo!!

Same here, I play my DC way more, the cube gets more play than ps/2. (Chi Bi Robot!).

I bought my Japanese version 6 months before us release at $600 including HOD2 and the Gun. I was never sorry and am still not. Great system!

[atarian63]

Where's my Raiden on the DC?

 

I noticed that many, if not all the racing games I've played on the DC are silky smooth and fast. I am hard pressed to find jaggies or slowdown outside of Hydro Thunder's two player mode. Virtual On has me convinced that it's arcade perfect, but I haven't played the arcade of Oratorio Tangram, so I don't know.

 

By contrast, Gran Turismo 3 looks horrid on the PS2. Now Gran Turismo was not know for it's stellar graphics up to that point, either. Look at the fence as you thunder down Super Speedway's back straight, and watch how the jaggies and the faces appear and disappear. That's not the only course which seems to lack anti aliasing. Mistakes were left in the game when it shipped, too. The final turn of Tokyo Route 246 was left at too tight a radius and later on it was widened a bit for the next semi-release. I thought it was fine in GT3, but still I don't like seeing it have to be changed in mid course. Apricot Hill was changed between GT3 and GT4 so that the S curve shortcut didn't work as well. I realize race courses evolve in real life, but how fast did something like Brands Hatch or Suzuka evolve to their present forms? Bristol? It seems the time span between GT3 and 4 should be negligible, since they span across decade of racing, but it's not. If it is, why not leave options for the earlier tracks? And where the blank is Special Stage Route 11?

 

Control wise, the Saturn had analog triggers before the Dreamcast did, and they are put to good use in games like Sega Touring Car and Daytona USA CCE. The PS2 has a similar function in the pressure sensitive L and R controls, this time used in the craptacular wipEout fusion.

 

All that said, I have very few games for either system. I've got slightly more DC games than PS2. I have zero GameCube or xbox games. (Is it xbox or XBOX?)

It is actually a Sega Naomi arcade machine with 1/2 the memory.

[dommie]

All I have to say is Soul Calibur. That Dreamcast game puts a lot of PS2 stuff to shame.

[ninermaniac]

All I have to say is Soul Calibur. That Dreamcast game puts a lot of PS2 stuff to shame.

 

YEs, a very sweet game BUT I just don't think there are many like SEAMAN. Some may think I am wierd but I just enjoyed watching this little guy grow. Ahh yes, from the tap on the window until I let him die. Seriously though, one bg reason I like the cosole is the accuracy of the shooting games to me. I learned to type with Typing of the Dead, learned to master Arcade skills with Marvel vs. Capcom, and Sonic. I just recently got back into the DC again but remember when I laid it down for the Xbox. Oh, the memories. Seaman. Lol.

[Artlover]

But you can't say with a straight face that the ability to easily acquire a game for free won't affect its performance in the marketplace.

Yes, I can say that with a straight face.

 

It has LONG been said by the piracy crowd for decades that "most" pirates simply would not have bought the software anyways if that was the only option.

 

 

To repeat what I said above, Nintendo already effectively proved this point.

 

GameCube - simmilar market share as Xbox - no piracy - software sales slightly less then Xbox

+

Xbox - simmilar market share as GameCube - heavily pirated - software sales slightly higher then GameCube

=

Piracy vs. no piracy, sales ratios were the same relative to market share.

 

 

All anti-pirate rhetoric revolves around making up their own numbers to show a precieved impact based on calling every count of piracy as a "lost sale" as if every person who pirated it would have bought it otherwise. Flawed fuzzy logic at best. The problem is this is not, and has never been the case. If it was, then you should beable to say that eliminating piracy would mean higher sales. Well, we have a real world, long term example of that very scenario playing out - yet higher sales were not the outcome. What it did show was that software sales were proportionately matched against market penetration levels and that eliminating piracy did nothing to change that ratio.

 

All the anti-piracy advocates have to do is prove their claim which dates back to the 1970's. Over 3 decades later, and their "proof" is still nothing more then an assumption based on voodoo math that can't be verified as a fact since it is based on an assumption (that every case of piracy is a lost sale because every person who pirated it would have bought it). The truth that it doesn't work that way is ignored because their argument falls flat on it's face. Instead they make rebuttals like "if they didn't want it, they wouldn't have pirated it". More flawed thinking to back up the flawed math. Seriously, we all know people will take things they don't want/need just because it's free. Being free is exactly why people who have no interest in something, no interest in spending money on, would bother. People who already planned on buying the product aren't the ones taking free samples of it in the grocery store.

 

Nintendo succeeded in stopping piracy for nearly 4 years on their console. What they accomplished was that no one who didn't buy the games were playing them. An empty success because it did not reflect any change in sales for them compared to the rest of the industry during that time. It simply showed that the pirates held true to the mantra, and if they couldn't pirate it, they wern't going to buy it either and either way there was never a sale to be had. One can ignore that fact all they want, but it's not going away. Google the numbers, they are out there for all to see.

 

Consumers who will buy the games and pirates who won't are largely two different groups, and there is not that much overlap between them.

 

When the anti-piracy advocates can prove their position without resorting to ignoring reality and making up numbers based on assumptions to suit their agenda, then I'll listen to them, give them credit and give value to their position. If they are right, then it shouldn't be hard to make a "legimiate" case. But when the case revolves around wearing delusional goggles to read piracy numbers as a 1 to 1 correlation with lost sales figures, as they often do despite evidence to the contrary, well, they lose. That's not scientific, that's not verifiable, that's not fact, that's not proof. That's taking data out of one context and applying it to another where the data has no meaning for the purpose of exaggerating the issue. If one has a valid case to make, they shouldn't have to do that. You do stuff like that when you don't have a case to make but want to win anyways.

 

It's not that I don't believe piracy doesn't have "any" impact. I'm sure it does on some level. But I give no weight to those that use the dirty cop mentality to justify and inflate their position.

[DaytonaUSA]

As a side note, playing Street Fighter Alpha 3.. while it looks better on the Saturn, I feel plays the best on the Dreamcast because of the smooth and solid dpad. My psone version is always played last (yes.. I own Alpha (Zero) 3 on all three consoles lol...good game).

[christianscott27]

I'd agree that the piracy effect is way over estimated, especially on the DC. The truth is even though most of us would say it was fairly easy to pirate the DC it really wasnt, especially for your average computer user in 2001. It remains that way even to this day, most people aint gonna flash the firmware in the 360 DVD drive or even use the twilight hack. They're not comfortable hacking things and geekishly complicated tutorials scare them off.

[Mord]

I agree with what you say, but have to add a couple comments.

 

All anti-pirate rhetoric revolves around making up their own numbers to show a precieved impact based on calling every count of piracy as a "lost sale" as if every person who pirated it would have bought it otherwise. Flawed fuzzy logic at best. The problem is this is not, and has never been the case. If it was, then you should beable to say that eliminating piracy would mean higher sales. Well, we have a real world, long term example of that very scenario playing out - yet higher sales were not the outcome. What it did show was that software sales were proportionately matched against market penetration levels and that eliminating piracy did nothing to change that ratio.

 

Another point to bring up is that the anti-pirate rhetoric is used to paint themselves as victims. However, this will never end because the "lost sales" argument is flawed from the bottom up so no matter what they do, they'll always be crying "oh my god, they're pirating it somehow still since our sales haven't risen!" And the attacks on their own consumers will continue in the form of DRM and other more invasive attacks (like Sony's rootkit shit years ago on -audio cds-.)

 

What's interesting is that companies that cry out about how copyright infringement is destroying them and causing them to suffer record loses (based on their lost sales estimates) are the same ones that tend to tell their stockholders that they've made record profits for the year.

 

Consumers who will buy the games and pirates who won't are largely two different groups, and there is not that much overlap between them.

 

This I'll disagree with. However it's in the opposite direction where the overlap comes from imo. There are people who will download something to see if they like it prior to shelling out $$ for it. I know for a FACT that this type of consumer exists. The only companies that need fear this type of consumer are the companies that are throwing shovelware out the door in hopes of tricking consumers to buy something that's more fun to use as a coaster than as game disc. If their game is good, they'll still get a sale along with extra hype. If they're pushing duds out, they'll get bad reviews and negative publicity that they'll get later anyway, but this way fewer customers are suckered into giving them money.

 

And trust me, those companies are actually a bit better off this way in the long run unless they're about to fold. When I purchase a game that's all hyped up by a company only to find it to be a piece of shit, I start applying that hate to the company itself for tricking me into buying it. This means odds are the next time an "awesome" game is revealed by that company, I'll just leave it on the shelf regardless of reviews.

 

Also, IF a company is putting it's future on the line with one last game, and they end up throwing shovelware out the door for that, then they deserve to fold.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Mord

[Reaperman]

Screw Ferrari 355, look at Test Drive Le Mans. If there was any proof the DC could deliver to the point the PS2 could, it was that game hands down.

damnit, now you've started me on a dreamcast buying spree. great reviews on that game--but since I purchased test drive 6, I avoided it like the plague.

[DaytonaUSA]

Screw Ferrari 355, look at Test Drive Le Mans. If there was any proof the DC could deliver to the point the PS2 could, it was that game hands down.

damnit, now you've started me on a dreamcast buying spree. great reviews on that game--but since I purchased test drive 6, I avoided it like the plague.

 

If you want a reason to get it, I've always hated the Test Drive games as well. This game I *believe* was made by the same guys who did Gran Tourismo (poly..whatever)... which explains why it looked so dang good. It was a very good sim driver, one of the best for ANY system. I'm still not very good at it as it's very tough, even on easy, but the complexity and the graphics still make me play it all the time. I've had the game for about 5 years, and I'm still amazed I'm playing a Dreamcast when I play it till this day.

 

It's an unappreciated racer that didn't sell very well. If you manage to find it at a local used game store, they are actually running around 25+ dollars. I guess they started figuring out it's one of the better titles on the system, and slowly becoming harder to find as people figure that out.

 

it's a shame that the Dreamcast didn't live for a full life. You guys are comparing apples to oranges, saying that the Dreamcast didn't look as good as later PS2 titles.. well no shit lol. If the Dreamcast can pull this game off, then I'm sure at the end of a 9 year life span, the Dreamcast could have pulled out just as pretty graphics. Let's face it here guys, the only reasons this console died were because of mismanagement, lack of DVD player, and hype of a system that turned out to not really deliver on it's promises until much later in it's life. The DC was a powerhouse, and just because the graphics on it's earlier games weren't so hot, doesn't mean that it didn't have the power to produce better. You guys have to remember that many games, like Hydro Thunder or Rush 2049, were simply n64/psone titles with higher resolution and better textures. When the Dreamcast got a bit older, it's exclusives proved what the system could do.

 

The fact that many of it's titles such as Crazy Taxi, Sonic Adventure 2, and so on, were on the Xbox, PS2, and GC and looked great, proves that the Dreamcast was no slouch. If those games were ported and looked bad, people would have laughed at their presence in their new system's library.

 

I still remember seeing a friend play his Dreamcast (which was the first time I saw one in person) and was amazed at Jet Grind Radio's lighting, Marvel VS Capcom 2's animation and smooth backgrounds, and Crazy Taxi's polygon count on the taxi's chrome grill. At the time all I had was an N64 and ps1, and I still remember the thoughts that went though my head when I saw it.. I was in utter shock, and to be short... was very ..very jealous.

 

Heck, I still have the issue of Nintendo Power, the first issue with GC reviews, that had Sonic Adventure 2's review in it, and wondering why the game didn't look any better on the GC than the DC. To be honest, if it wasn't for the drool worthy pictures of Rogue Squadron, I wouldn't have even concidered a Cube at launch .

Edited March 31, 2009 by DaytonaUSA

[Reaperman]

It's an unappreciated racer that didn't sell very well. If you manage to find it at a local used game store, they are actually running around 25+ dollars. I guess they started figuring out it's one of the better titles on the system, and slowly becoming harder to find as people figure that out.

oh I found my copy of lemans already. lots of NIB copies on ebay for under $10 buy-it-now. live search is offering 14% off buy it nows too.

...and then I bought a copy of starlancer (maybe I have this one already), and bang! gunship elite.

I stopped myself short of the $30 import capcom vs. snk 2--great price, but I've caused enough trouble at home, I'm sure.

[StoneAgeGamer]

DC's graphics were a huge step. Even to this day there are games on it that still look great. One of my favorite consoles off all time. I was addicted to PSO.

[Video]

I actualy went PS2 first, and got a DC years later, mainly cause I'd been burned on the Genny 32x and the Saturn, and I wasn't going to do that again. Lots of people, and I mean, damn near everybody said I was stupid for not picking it up immidiately, but you know what? I have no lost sleep over buying afte it's death, it just means I got mine at $30 with a few games instead of paying $300 (or was it $200) for something to not be supported a year later. Well, I was wrong, it wasn't supported 2 years later

 

But, even at the time, the most impressive game I played on the PS2 was literally Smugglers run, and it's still one of the best original games on there IMO. But then, I picked up the Dreamcast, like I said, for $30, with Crazy Taxi, Sonic Advance, and Atari 30th, and all of a sudden, I'm like "Holy $#!T, how the hell is this NOT still being supported?!!? Oh yeah, Sega's a bunch of incompetant idiots."

 

I don't actively collect for it, but the few games I played and liked, I very much prefered the look and speed of on the DC to the PS2, where the PS2 won out was the controller, sorry, the two sticks win out over the triggers, though get both and you got the 360 controller so

 

Anyhow, get the same title on the DC and the PS2, and it'x CLEAR which is the better system (yeah, PS2's got the better poly count, but not much more than that, and with Sony's track record, they're probably compareing nekid polys to textured,rendered,shaded polys like they did with the PSX vs 64 wars) But pump up the polys, screw the colors, textures, shades, smoothing etc, and while the PS2 pushed more, it looked like ass doing it. Drop to the same poly count, I think the PS2 could have done better textures, but it was doing it at 640x480 while the DC was hitting 800x600, look at games like REZ to see the difference.

 

Anyways, long story short, if Sega could have gotten their heads out of their asses, they could have been one of the big three of the last generation. They would have had a slight lead to start with, but Sega could have dopne one of those "two pictures are worht a thousand words " add campaigns like Mattel back in the 80's, only, it not only looked good, it played good too.

 

I dont know who would have failed, probably Nintendo, and we'd all be playing the billions of mario compiles on everything now instead of Sonic (X-boxand Cube both did about the same, but X-box had Halo as a killer app, and Nintendo had...uh...gameboy player?)

[cimerians]

There is some serious DC fanboyism love making going on here.

 

 

*runs for cover*

[Nintendo Penguin]

Dreamcast was the first and only Sega system I have ever owned. I bought the black sports edition on night one a whim and it turned out to be a great decision. I didn't really think the Dreamcast would make it long term, so I wasn't disappointed when it was canceled. It had some great games and I enjoyed it much more than my PS1, PS2, or N64. At the time I was more about PC games than console games, but the Dreamcast was my go to console until I bought my GameCube in 2002.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Nintendo Penguin

[Gregory DG]

Love the Dreamcast. It plays emulators nicely too.

[Mazerati]

Love the Dreamcast. It plays emulators nicely too.

 

that's another thing

the NesterDC pack (NES) is flawless on the dreamcast