Atari 5200 vs. CelecoVision

[Ransom]

DK Jr, Space Pilot, Space Panic, Fury, Gorf, Galaxians, Popeye, Frogger....the list is endless really.

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear: I meant to limit it to exclusive titles. Gorf, Galaxian, Popeye, and Frogger were available on both, so I didn't think it was fair to count them as a reason someone would buy a CV or 5200.

 

Were Space Panic or Space Fury very popular? I'd never seen them in my local arcade (not that that means anything).

 

DK Jr, though, was definitely a hit. I missed that one.

 

 

I've never used a 5200 for real, but the Coleco controllers were a pain IMO. Both have great games, assuming 5200 Rescue on Fractalus plays the same as the A8 version I would say the 5200 is the more powerful machine.

 

If you ever get a chance, try out the 5200 controllers (working, and preferably Best Gold ones) with something that they're really made for. They work well, IMO. For games like Pac-Man, they're just OK. But for Missile Command or even Galaxian (which, on the 5200, supports movement speed based on how far the joystick is pushed in a given direction) and many others, it's a pleasure to use them. Or so goes my experience.

 

As for the CV ones, I haven't used them since the early 80s (I owned a 5200 in '82, and a CV in '83), but at the time I didn't find them all that bad. We'll see how my adult hands deal with them once I find a decently priced CV someday.

 

 

Anyway it's always biased to what you owned or played as a child and that's where the nostalgia comes in

 

True, dat!

[opcode]

Please correct me if I say something wrong, but here is how I see things:

 

Atari 5200 Antic...

 

Each scanline requires 44 memory accesses at most (44 bytes/scanline). Then you have sprites. 5 more bytes/scanline. Then perhaps a few more bytes for the display list.

Total around 50 bytes per scaline...

 

ColecoVision TMS9918...

 

Each scanline requires 32 bytes for pattern, 32 bytes for color and 32 bytes for name, so 96 bytes per scanline just for background graphics.

For sprites we have 4 sprites x (4 attribute bytes + 2 pattern bytes), so 24 bytes per scanline.

Now, and this is something the Atari cannot do, the TMS9928 offers vertical position for sprites. In other to decide which sprites should appear in a given scanline, the VDP must read all 32 y-position attributes (because we have 32 sprites) from VRAM (and that is why the Atari doesn't offer that). So you have 32 more bytes per scanline.

Total around 152 bytes per scanline.

 

That means that the TMS9918 has 3 times the memory bandwidth of an Antic.

 

But that isn't all. Even though the processors for both the CV and Atari are roughly equivalent in terms of processing power (Z80 x 6502), the Antic steals cycles from the 6502. I read somewhere that it can in fact steal as many as 50% of all cycles per frame (not sure if that is true). That means in my opinion that the CV in most cases run faster than an Atari, because the TMS9918 has a completely independent VRAM, not sharing memory cycles.

Edited May 27, 2009 by opcode

[Crazyace]

Please correct me if I say something wrong, but here is how I see things:

 

Atari 5200 Antic...

 

Each scanline requires 44 memory accesses at most (44 bytes/scanline). Then you have sprites. 5 more bytes/scanline. Then perhaps a few more bytes for the display list.

Total around 50 bytes per scaline...

 

ColecoVision TMS9918...

 

Each scanline requires 32 bytes for pattern, 32 bytes for color and 32 bytes for name, so 96 bytes per scanline just for background graphics.

For sprites we have 4 sprites x (4 attribute bytes + 2 pattern bytes), so 24 bytes per scanline.

Now, and this is something the Atari cannot do, the TMS9928 offers vertical position for sprites. In other to decide which sprites should appear in a given scanline, the VDP must read all 32 y-position attributes (because we have 32 sprites) from VRAM (and that is why the Atari doesn't offer that). So you have 32 more bytes per scanline.

Total around 152 bytes per scanline.

 

That means that the TMS9918 has 3 times the memory bandwidth of an Antic.

 

But that isn't all. Even though the processors for both the CV and Atari are roughly equivalent in terms of processing power (Z80 x 6502), the Antic steals cycles from the 6502. I read somewhere that it can in fact steal as many as 50% of all cycles per frame (not sure if that is true). That means in my opinion that the CV in most cases run faster than an Atari, because the TMS9918 has a completely independent VRAM, not sharing memory cycles.

 

Antic does give the advantage for scrolling though, and the 5200 memory system is a bit more general purpose as it's shared.

[mcjakeqcool]

@Crazyace

 

Thankyou ever so much! First chance I'm gonna get I'll put those 7800 sales figures up on wikipedia, I searched the web for 3 days strait at one stage for 7800 sales figures and could'ent find any. Thankyou ever so much!

[Crazyace]

Dont thank me - Curt put them up

[CV Gus]

TRANSLATION: I posted something he didn't like.

 

You post a lot of things I don't like! It all comes from the fact that you try to rewrite history, change facts and ignore facts when they are put in front of you.

 

 

Sorry, amigo, but the only one here ignoring facts is you.

 

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales. How could the 5200 have possibly won out, when Atari itself dumped it in early 1984- BEFORE the Tramiels ever took over. You seem to conveniently forget that I still have the old video gaming magazines from those days, too, when this was current news. Not Internet copies- the originals. And there was MUCH ANGER from 5200 owners, to put it mildly. In a way, it was worse- the 5200 owners were abandoned; the CV owners lost out because the company itself was going down.

 

As for sales figures- here's yet another place for the "Six Million:"

 

http://classicgames.about.com/od/history/a...VisionHis_3.htm

 

You'll note that I usually still give out the range. The actual number was probably close to 4 1/2 million. But do any of the sales figures for anything consider returns?

 

Maybe in your world anything you don't like is "subjective," but here's reality- take it or leave it.

 

 

1) The CV got a head start on the 5200.

 

2) Atari released the 5200 with an initial batch of games that had a mostly "been there, done that" feel because of the 2600. This did not help. In spite of the Telstar Arcade, the CV did not have a "tough act to follow."

 

3) Atari, unlike Coleco, was trying to support TWO systems at the same time. It's an ironic fact that a good version of Galaxian for the 2600 took away incentive to get a 5200. Likewise Space Invaders, Super Breakout, and even Missile Command. In a way, the 5200's worst enemy was the 2600. In spite of the module, the 2600 hurt 5200 sales badly.

 

4) Atari abandoned the 5200 in early 1984. This did little for consumer trust- or 5200 sales. Thus, not only did the CV have a head start, it had more time at the end, too. And didn't someone "take over" for the CV after mid-1984? Stores still had CV stuff right through 1987- I ought to know, since I was still buying from a number of stores, and not in the "clearance" bins. And that lack of trust hurt the 7800 and Jaguar.

 

5) Except among Atari fanatics, it's universally held that the CV outsold the 5200 easily. This is why they're so much easier to find "in the wild" than 5200s. I know. I've looked for both over the years. (Among all pre-NES systems, though, the 2600 ruled in numbers.)

 

6) CV controllers weren't great, but they blew 5200 ones out of the water. Then again, what didn't?

 

7) There never was a FATAL glut. Atari doomed itself with boneheaded spending and poor management; Coleco by that moronic ADAM computer. Both sides believed the hype about "video games are dead, the future is in computers." It's like running a race to win, and then being convinced that someone else has crossed the finish line- you tend to lose steam and give up. Hell, with the Internet of 2009 (e.g. YouTube), computers have something those old computers never did, so why is there an X-Box 360 and Playstation 3? Why did the NES do so well? Because the "glut" is a myth. Marketers and gullible CEOs suicided the industry.

 

 

How much better the 5200 would have done if it had been released earlier with good controllers and better thought-out games (what if Pac-man had been the..."pac"-in game?), if games like Tempest and Super Pac-Man had been released in early 1984/late 1983, etc...it very likely would have done much better. Likewise, if Coleco had not tinkered around with laserdisc modules, super modules, and the ADAM computer, then who knows? Certainly even better. Quite frankly, both companies in those days are perfect examples of how NOT to do it.

[+Allan]

Sorry, amigo, but the only one here ignoring facts is you.

 

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The Atari 5200 out sold the Colecovision by MILLIONS!!!!!!

 

Allan

[VectorGamer]

Sorry, amigo, but the only one here ignoring facts is you.

 

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The Atari 5200 out sold the Colecovision by MILLIONS!!!!!!

 

Allan

 

OK - so what are the numbers and what are your references?

Edited June 5, 2009 by rmaerz

[opcode]

Sorry, amigo, but the only one here ignoring facts is you.

 

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The Atari 5200 out sold the Colecovision by MILLIONS!!!!!!

 

Allan

 

Can you prove?

I just did a search for both Atari 5200 and ColecoVision on eBay. Then I refined the search by clicking on categories > systems. I got 10 items for Atari 5200, versus 26 for ColecoVision. My experience in 15 so years of collecting old video games is that ColecoVisions are a lot easier to find than Atari 5200s. That isn't a proof of anything per se, but is an indication...

Edited June 5, 2009 by opcode

[+Allan]

Sorry, amigo, but the only one here ignoring facts is you.

 

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The Atari 5200 out sold the Colecovision by MILLIONS!!!!!!

 

Allan

 

Can you prove?

I just did a search for both Atari 5200 and ColecoVision on eBay. Then I refined the search by clicking on categories > systems. I got 10 items for Atari 5200, versus 26 for ColecoVision. My experience in 15 so years of collecting old video games is that ColecoVisions are a lot easier to find than Atari 5200s. That isn't a proof of anything per se, but is an indication...

Not in the least. My point is nobody knows so people shouldn't say things like 'The fact is' is then say something that there isn't proof of. Frankly I could give two s***s what sold better, I just don't like people saying things are fact when there is no proof. Until someone finds docs from both Coleco and Atari showing the sales of the Colecovision and the 5200, there is no way to know how many were sold of each one.

 

Allan

[+Allan]

I just did a search for both Atari 5200 and ColecoVision on eBay. Then I refined the search by clicking on categories > systems. I got 10 items for Atari 5200, versus 26 for ColecoVision. My experience in 15 so years of collecting old video games is that ColecoVisions are a lot easier to find than Atari 5200s. That isn't a proof of anything per se, but is an indication...

Using that method doesn't give you a good idea of what's on ebay of either item because many people choose different catagories when listing items. If you do a search for 'Atari 5200' and 'Colecovision' you'll get a better idea. In my many years of searching both on eBay they come up about that same.

 

Allan

[Murph74]

Let's just pretend, for the sake of this thread, that the word FACT is defined as "commonly believed and accepted among collectors and historians".

 

Or, I suggest THIS site to back up and confirm all Allan's 5200 sales suspicions. Looks trustworthy enough.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Murph74

[DracIsBack]

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

 

According to whom? Your speculation?

 

 

How could the 5200 have possibly won out, when Atari itself dumped it in early 1984- BEFORE the Tramiels ever took over.

 

Don't know - haven't seen 5200 sales data or Coleco sales data to compare it to. Oh wait - neither have you!

 

 

As for sales figures- here's yet another place for the "Six Million:"

 

http://classicgames.about.com/od/history/a...VisionHis_3.htm

 

Whoopie!

 

Here's an article which claims Atari sold 250,000 Jaguars during its first year on the market. from a supposedly reputable game magazine.

 

http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/11...me-page-2-of-2/

 

Here's another that says they had sold 125,000 (from Atari themselves) that says they sold half that number in twice that amount of time.

 

http://google.brand.edgar-online.com/EFX_d...PwW3W68chGZucz7

 

My point? There's a lot of information on the net that comes from strange places and is often proven wrong. Hell - at one point, the Wikipedia article for the Jaguar (citing yet another site) said that the machine sold 2 million units!

 

Show me some actual numbers from Coleco and Atari, then we'll talk.

 

 

Maybe in your world anything you don't like is "subjective," but here's reality- take it or leave it.

 

You completely misunderstood my point.

 

In spite of the module, the 2600 hurt 5200 sales badly.

 

How would you know this if you don't have 5200 sales figures?

 

 

Thus, not only did the CV have a head start, it had more time at the end, too.

 

Except the industry had collapsed and few consoles were being sold.

 

Stores still had CV stuff right through 1987

 

Yes, because you visited a startistically significant portion of the retail channel to come to this accurate picture, right?

 

5) Except among Atari fanatics, it's universally held that the CV outsold the 5200 easily.

 

And yet I've never seen anyone provide actual sales statistics for either unit except to quote random unverifiable numbers.

 

I know. I've looked for both over the years. (Among all pre-NES systems, though, the 2600 ruled in numbers.)

 

Yes, because we all know you've visited a statistically significant number of stores carrying product across the world to come to this assessment.

Edited June 5, 2009 by DracIsBack

[+Allan]

Just in case some people didn't get my sarcasm, I have no idea what the sales of the Colecovision or the 5200 was! And nobody else does either! Until Curt finds a Warner Atari doc that gives a breakdown of 5200 sales and somebody else finds a Coleco doc saying how many Colecovision were sold, we will never know what sold more. OK. Just everybody get over it.

 

Allan

[CARTRIDGE STEALER]

the coleco was untouchable. it had a huge number of arcade classics, classics that were long lasting games ie multi levels.

 

the 5200, to me, had a small list of games, and werent all that great.

 

did the 5200 have expanision modules like coleco?

[CARTRIDGE STEALER]

I would also like to add that coleo had a gimmick that bought in a lot of buyers: buy a colecovision and a cartridge and you got a free cabbage patch kid doll. everyone remembers how hard those things were for a while.

 

atari couldnt touch that promotion.

[jetset]

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

 

And?

 

Jimi Hendrixs' debut album Are You Experienced - 4 million copies sold.

 

Britney Spears' debut Oops I did it again - 25 million copies sold.

 

I'm just saying.

[opcode]

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

 

And?

 

Jimi Hendrixs' debut album Are You Experienced - 4 million copies sold.

 

Britney Spears' debut Oops I did it again - 25 million copies sold.

 

I'm just saying.

 

So you're suggesting that the 5200 compares to Hendrix while the CV is Britney? You telling me that a rehash of a then 4 years old computer less the keyboard paired with the worst controller ever and pack-in cartridge of Breakout (in all its 4 colors glory, no less) is Hendrix?.. Sure...

[+Allan]

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

 

And?

 

Jimi Hendrixs' debut album Are You Experienced - 4 million copies sold.

 

Britney Spears' debut Oops I did it again - 25 million copies sold.

 

I'm just saying.

 

So you're suggesting that the 5200 compares to Hendrix while the CV is Britney? You telling me that a rehash of a then 4 years old computer less the keyboard paired with the worst controller ever and pack-in cartridge of Breakout (in all its 4 colors glory, no less) is Hendrix?.. Sure...

 

Although I admit that the Colecovision controller is pretty bad, it probably isn't the worst controller ever. That probably would be one of the knock-off 2600 controllers that came out during the Eighties.

 

 

 

Just messing with you. The 5200 controller has it's problems but it's a pretty compfortable controller. It's one of the few joysticks I can use for a long length of time.

 

Allan

Edited June 6, 2009 by Allan

[jetset]

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

 

And?

 

Jimi Hendrixs' debut album Are You Experienced - 4 million copies sold.

 

Britney Spears' debut Oops I did it again - 25 million copies sold.

 

I'm just saying.

 

So you're suggesting that the 5200 compares to Hendrix while the CV is Britney? You telling me that a rehash of a then 4 years old computer less the keyboard paired with the worst controller ever and pack-in cartridge of Breakout (in all its 4 colors glory, no less) is Hendrix?.. Sure...

 

I'm saying there's no accounting for taste, and the better product doesn't always sell the best.

[opcode]

I'm saying there's no accounting for taste, and the better product doesn't always sell the best.

 

Yet sometimes it does.

[VectorGamer]

The sprites have reared their ugly head on my ColecoVision again and it's at the point where I'm going to have to take the thing apart and give it a nice little bubble bath...so, putting that off 'til tomorrow I hooked up my 5200.

 

I thumbed through all the carts in my 5200 collection (which include all the big time arcade ports) however I began missing my ColecoVision! Berzerk, Robotron, Qix (one of my faves), Galaxian, Joust and about a dozen others to choose from in my 5200 collection but what I really wanted to play was Pepper II, Mouse Trap, Donkey Kong, Galaxian and Defender on the ColecoVision.

 

Since I decommisioned the ColecoVision, I instead hooked up the 7800 and played some Joust, Galaga, Food Fight and the 2600 carts Jr. Pac-Man, Space Invaders Arcade, Defender Arcade and Pac-Man Aracde.

 

This isn't based on sales figures, just one man's preference for the ColecoVision over the 5200. I don't dislike the 5200, but in my opinion the ColecoVision is the closest you'll get to the arcade experience between the two.

[+Mitch]

I'm saying there's no accounting for taste, and the better product doesn't always sell the best.

 

Yet sometimes it does.

 

Cool, another 2600 fan.

 

Mitch

[Crazyace]

Just thinking out loud, but I expect that if the 5200 sales figures had been similar to the Colecovision, Atari wouldn't have been working on a 7800 - which does seem to be more of a replacement for the 5200 than a true successor. Also the Colecovision was sold worldwide - and it seemed to be pretty popular in the UK ( at least in terms of retail presence )

 

I actually wish that the 5200 had been more like a cut down 400 ( ie. membrane keyboard ) - as it could have all of the cartridge games, and still offer the expandibility to the computer. ( Having a different cartridge slot wouldn't matter as much if SIO could be added. )

[CARTRIDGE STEALER]

It is a FACT that the CV outdid the 5200 in sales.

 

And?

 

Jimi Hendrixs' debut album Are You Experienced - 4 million copies sold.

 

Britney Spears' debut Oops I did it again - 25 million copies sold.

 

I'm just saying.

 

So you're suggesting that the 5200 compares to Hendrix while the CV is Britney? You telling me that a rehash of a then 4 years old computer less the keyboard paired with the worst controller ever and pack-in cartridge of Breakout (in all its 4 colors glory, no less) is Hendrix?.. Sure...

 

Although I admit that the Colecovision controller is pretty bad, it probably isn't the worst controller ever. That probably would be one of the knock-off 2600 controllers that came out during the Eighties.

 

 

 

Just messing with you. The 5200 controller has it's problems but it's a pretty compfortable controller. It's one of the few joysticks I can use for a long length of time.

 

Allan

 

the 5200 controller sucked. it was thick like a brick and weighed as much as one, too!