Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[DimensionX]

Whaddayanow...

 

Oh yeah... another three colour bias-relief that doesn't match any of the criteria you've been going on about or prove a single point as regards Xenon.

 

I played that game right now. A Xenon for A8 is possible by judging of that experience.

[PeteD]

 

 

Wise words. I'll will take your advice. We synethetes are a bit more sensitive then regular people. I also have a hot temper. I think that most creative persons have.

 

In that case, calm down for 5 minutes and try to understand that nobody is saying you are wrong for preferring the Atari over any other machine, nobody is saying 16 colours is better than 128/256. What we're trying to point out is that you can't just say it's better at graphics because it's got more colours when you can't display those colours in the fairly unrestricted manner the C64 can. If you want to have a rainbows competition, Atari will win. If you want to display a greyscale image in 4:1 pixel AR, Atari will win. If you want to display 16 colours in 1 scanline at many different positions across the screen (not just big bands of each) NO MATTER what 16 colours may be, the C64 will win.

 

That's ALL anyone has been trying to get across in the last 2 days.

 

Pete

[DimensionX]

Between us, they aren't programmers in this discussion, even if i whish they were, they are plain C64 fanatics, and that's something completely different.

 

Here's the Atari 8-bit game i've finished and released:

 

 

Try playing it yourself. i have another game that's complete barring the music and several others in prototype form. Here's the little demo i was asked to write:

 

 

And again, you might want to try it yourself. These are programs for the Atari 8-bit that i personally have written, that makes me a programmer regardless of your "logic".

 

If they were programmers we should have a sensible discussion instead of dealing with impossible arguments when fanatics trying to defend something to death, no matter what methods. Not even the rainbow TRM posted...was one. All i saw was shoddy C64 colours in wrong resolution.

 

The "mock-up or shut up" image you mean? That was drawn from an Atari 8-bit palette rather than a C64 one so it seems that after you repeatedly going on about how good the Atari colours are, you can't tell them from the C64 palette.

 

What happened to the picture?

 

Did you washed it?

 

Okey, now we are even and i have posted off some of the irritation.

Edited April 28, 2010 by DimensionX

[PeteD]

Where the HELL are you getting that palette from?

 

 

Pete

[TMR]

I played that game right now. A Xenon for A8 is possible by judging of that experience.

 

You're not aware enough of the Atari 8-bit hardware to make that judgement, you've proved that several times now. Sidewinder 2 is a good game, but can't use the "nuances" you felt were so important and can't replicate the "Bitmap style" either - it won't even stretch to managing the attack patterns.

[DimensionX]

Where the HELL are you getting that palette from?

 

 

Pete

 

Atarimania, demo section.

[TMR]

What happened to the picture?

 

Did you washed it?

 

No, it's a straight dump from Atari 800Win. Apparently not a perfect palette but far closer than the one you've just used based on what my real 800XL looks like.

[TMR]

Where the HELL are you getting that palette from?

 

Atarimania, demo section.

 

Ah, you should've said... their palette is known for being nowhere near the real thing - my screenshot is far closer to what a real Atari would look like than the one on Atarimania.

[DimensionX]

I played that game right now. A Xenon for A8 is possible by judging of that experience.

 

You're not aware enough of the Atari 8-bit hardware to make that judgement, you've proved that several times now. Sidewinder 2 is a good game, but can't use the "nuances" you felt were so important and can't replicate the "Bitmap style" either - it won't even stretch to managing the attack patterns.

 

And you have nothing to show either.

 

If you have, carry on.

 

If you can make games like Sidewinder II, a Xenon is possible.

 

Now you argue by yourself.

[TMR]

I played that game right now. A Xenon for A8 is possible by judging of that experience.

 

You're not aware enough of the Atari 8-bit hardware to make that judgement, you've proved that several times now. Sidewinder 2 is a good game, but can't use the "nuances" you felt were so important and can't replicate the "Bitmap style" either - it won't even stretch to managing the attack patterns.

 

And you have nothing to show either.

 

If you have, carry on.

 

If you can make games like Sidewinder II, a Xenon is possible.

 

i don't have to show anything because i reckon that engine can't do it; the Sidewinder 2 attack waves are nowhere near as complex as Xenon and the sprites don't pass over backgrounds - it also doesn't have that "Bitmap style" and only uses three shades of grey when you said at least four would be required so it doesn't fit your "rules" either.

 

And i've already said several times i think a Xenon is possible, but not the way you reckon it'd be done - you wouldn't like my solution because it doesn't use enough "nuances".

[PeteD]

Where the HELL are you getting that palette from?

 

Atarimania, demo section.

 

Ah, you should've said... their palette is known for being nowhere near the real thing - my screenshot is far closer to what a real Atari would look like than the one on Atarimania.

 

Yeah, even the guys who run Atarimania will admit their palette is screwed. I think they guy who wrote the demo and did the graphics should know what it's supposed to look like.

 

*edit*

Have a search on this forum for Laoo or Olivier-P. Those are the two palettes regarded by pretty much everyone as the closest to the real hardware.

 

Pete

Edited April 28, 2010 by PeteD

[TMR]

Have a search on this forum for Laoo or Olivier-P. Those are the two palettes regarded by pretty much everyone as the closest to the real hardware.

 

When i finally get around to reworking the Cosine website, i'm probably going to render all the A8 screens with one of those two... my 800XL will have an SIO2SD soon so i'll just go with whichever is closer to the output on that.

 

For now though, the Atari 800Win palette isn't too bad and the palette file i created for ProMotion (which was used for the "mock-up or shut up" image) was built based on it.

Edited April 28, 2010 by TMR

[ceti331]

bit more on what i reckon it would look like,

 

 

i'm thinking use the player missile graphics to do exactly what they say on the tin & characters for the moving objects.

You'd have the multiples, smoothly following the ship, with whatever software sprite compromises going on for the enemies.

i suspect basic hardware use would facilitate getting a lot going on onscreen (the player is supposed to have 3 multiples i think? plus homing missiles...)

 

 

I think DimensionX is severely opposed to using Halftones, which is completely insane.

the halftone is necassery to properly differentiate the 8 sided look, and to allow brighter highlight than the general raised areas.. the moving enemies will need a brighter highlight than the general raised areas..

Edited April 28, 2010 by ceti331

[Barnacle boy]

And if you could speak swedish you would understand why by visting one of my blogs where you can read about my theories about both time, metaphysics, consciousness and secondary perception. The world isn't anything that you think it is. But we can save that for another time.

 

Translation: "On my blogs I take my love of creating my own reality to a whole new level!"

[Garak]

Hmmm, is english your native language?

 

If that's the case, it's hard to belive.

 

Ah, you've noticed. No, it's not my native language. I learned the language during my time of running a tailor shop on the promenade of Deep Space Nine. Many Starfleet personal were stationed there and I picked up English from them (they kept dropping it all over and people would trip over it constantly there). Before that I used a universal translator.

 

How's that for a response?

 

Don't underestimate yourself. They aren't as "wise" as you might belive. You think that they are experts who posesses great knowledge?

 

What I believe is that they know what they're talking about. One way I know is that they've demonstrated their knowledge many times on this (and other) sites over the years in various ways.

 

Between us, they aren't programmers in this discussion

 

Yes they are, they've proven it.

 

, even if i whish they were,

 

If wishes were trees the trees would be falling.

 

they are plain C64 fanatics, and that's something completely different.

 

The only thing they are fanatic about is being accurate about what each computer (Atari or Commodore) is capable of.

 

If they were programmers

 

They are.

 

we should have a sensible discussion instead of dealing with impossible arguments

 

We should have one, yes, but the fault doesn't lay with them.

 

when fanatics

 

Again with the "fanatics"?

 

Not even the rainbow TRM posted...was one. All i saw was shoddy C64 colours in wrong resolution.

 

If I were you I'd go back and really look at that picture again. It is not the computer you're looking for.

 

You can't argue with fanatics, they will not listen to any arguments against their own beloved machine.

 

No, indeed they won't.

 

C64 can do no wrong or bad and 16 colours will be enough to create anything, yes, they really belive such things.

 

I think you need to go back re-read their posts.

 

I normally deal with far more advanced things then retro computing i can tell you. And if you could speak swedish you would understand why by visting one of my blogs where you can read about my theories about both time, metaphysics, consciousness and secondary perception.

 

Oh, I am so tempted to make more DS9 references here it's not even funny.

 

The world isn't anything that you think it is. But we can save that for another time.

 

Right, because above all else that doesn't belong in the programming forum.

 

Besides that i'm a synesthete. If you don't know what that is, check Wiki or similar.

 

I'm aware of it. Ways you know you're losing an internet argument #403: use "I have a [fill in some health problem]" or "I'm a [fill in some health problem or college degree]" to try to stay afloat in the fray.

 

I would think many people on these forums have problems too whether similar or not but that doesn't make it right to not listen.

 

Good luck with, whatever you do.

 

Yes, you too.

 

Garak

[Bryan]

the months of work i put into getting my scrolling engine going is a waste of time because you'd be happy with a stupid sodding rainbow behind some shoddy four colour graphics.

 

Did someone say a rainbow behind some 4 color [sic] graphics?? :drool:

 

 

Anyway, TMR I can't believe you got sucked into another one of these threads.

[ceti331]

Besides that i'm a synesthete. If you don't know what that is, check Wiki or similar.

ah,

so you might actually have quite distinct perceptual preferences to the rest of us ... your mind is adding color to flatter "symbolic" sprite graphics? or you're much more sensitive to the hues?

... & thats why you strongly prefer the cleaner colors of A8 to C64 screens? or does ordered dither grate for you in the same way garish colors do for me ?

if so, fair enough

 

I'm not a C64 fanatic by any stretch of the imagination: I had a BBC micro. There's a big hole in my childhood lasting up until Amiga where SHADES didn't exist at all

I'm just interested in retro games.

 

The C64 wins for me for being able to display different bas-relief elements seperated from eachother.

But i'm still interested enough to see how far the A8 would get to do the mockups. It reminds me of the 8bit days, and the A8 feature set is a BIG step forward over the BBC micro.

Edited April 28, 2010 by ceti331

[Bryan]

Also, exaggeration doesn't help the cause A8 has 256 (ok, 2.5 is more than 1, so hundreds) colours ONLY in selected modes.

 

Actually, only in one. GTIA 9.

[TMR]

i'm thinking use the player missile graphics to do exactly what they say on the tin & characters for the moving objects.

 

i haven't gridded it off and am working by eye, but it looks like you're trying to put too many colours into one 4x8 pixel cell where the enemies are; you get three shared colours (one is background) and only one of the other two per cell - if you use background and the two shared playfields to generate the three shades of colour and the selectables for orange and black, the latter two can't co-exist in one 4x8 pixel area so moving up from their current positions is a problem (the black lowlights on the tiles) and trundling over the drop shadow from the landscape will cause problems too.

 

Another problem is rendering the enemies as software sprites, each will require a 3x3 character area (they're two by two but need space to roll into the adjacent cells) so the six in the cyan shot (ignoring the explosion) would need 54 characters in total from the 128 - that leaves just 74 to cram in all the background detail, fixed bullets that just plot in and out as characters, work spaces for all the softsprite bullets and if there's a shadow under the player that needs work space as well (at a guess, another 16 characters).

[TMR]

Did someone say a rainbow behind some 4 color [sic] graphics?? :drool:

 

Typical Atarian, can't take 'em anywhere without their getting all excited about rainbows... =-)

 

Anyway, TMR I can't believe you got sucked into another one of these threads.

 

i'm sure you know me well enough by now... if people post incorrect facts, i'll stick an oar in - these particular facts are about the A8, oddly enough.

[ceti331]

i haven't gridded it off and am working by eye, but it looks like you're trying to put too many colours into one 4x8 pixel cell where the enemies are; you get three shared colours (one is background) and only one of the other two per cell

 

I was careful in the latter mockups to remove black from the circular enemies, so black/orange is the '3rd character' color.

i was losing patience so its not fully gridded.

 

I tried to give the impression of character cells being used for enemies with no software masking going on, just the mid-grey around them.

taking inspiration from Spectrum R-Type. very jerky object movement, but at least getting smooth scroll & smooth player/projectiles.

[Bryan]

Well of course there's no denying that. The Atari came before the C64 but people still try to claim it's superior in every way (not aiming that at you btw).

 

Yeah, the biggest crime is that the 800 had fantastic specs for it's time and Atari failed to capitalize on it. The XL line should have have some sort of hardware improvement but Atari was having trouble keeping engineers. Anyway, by the time the 64 arrived, the market was still very much up for grabs.

[TMR]

I tried to give the impression of character cells being used for enemies with no software masking going on, just the mid-grey around them.

taking inspiration from Spectrum R-Type. very jerky object movement, but at least getting smooth scroll & smooth player/projectiles.

 

Hmm, that'd work but i don't think DimensionX would like it... =-)

[ceti331]

Another problem is rendering the enemies as software sprites, each will require a 3x3 character area (they're two by two but need space to roll into the adjacent cells) so the six in the cyan shot (ignoring the explosion) would need 54 characters in total from the 128

 

i suppose you could do some approximations with enemies that have more freedom of movement in one axis - like those ships which fly down the screen. I suspect Zybex was doing this sometimes from some of the movement i saw.

different animation frames only existing in different pre-shift positions

 

would the machine be able to switch character sets per horizontal area ? e.g. each quater of screen having its own character set, copying in remapped background tiles & dynamically generating software-sprites on demand ?

e.g. 64 active tiles per screen quater + 64 soft-sprite chars..

[TMR]

Yeah, the biggest crime is that the 800 had fantastic specs for it's time and Atari failed to capitalize on it. The XL line should have have some sort of hardware improvement but Atari was having trouble keeping engineers.

 

Yhat would need some kind of fallback mode to allow older software to run on the XL and Atari would probably have ended up in the same boat Commodore found themselves in with the C128, more power overall but hobbled because nobody is targeting that mode because they want to sell to all the users - i've always assumed that's why there isn't far more GTIA mode use...?