Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[ceti331]

Agree, it's how to use them, and the quality of them, and the number of them. Alternate Reality.

C64 version

Atari version

 

This is clearly a skewed comparison- elsewhere there's a lot of evidence that the C64 CAN handle set peice images much better than those pics in Alternate Reality.

looks like the bitmaps dont use any color attributes.

I'd much rather have the per-cell color attributes (with approximated dithered gradients) rather than the raster bars.

those pictures have a lot of compromises in them such as the sky shading going through that static structure.

 

Multiplatform titles are a bad comparison because they are designed for lowest-common-denominator (and possibly biased to one or the other)

 

the best comparison is either Arcade ports aproximating something superior, or single-platform games like Armalyte designed to show one off.

[DimensionX]

Perhaps many of you think that gradiant colurbars are something useless? I don't think so, i think they enhance a game quite a lot because the game looks much more classy with some gradients in the background.

 

Look at the sky.

 

Hmmmm, they also add a feeling of depth to the game.

 

PNG, 684x492px, 13 KB (0.01 MB)

 

In this game gradients enhance the sky too even if the foreground is very simple

 

PNG, 684x492px, 19 KB (0.02 MB)

 

I personally think that the colours of Atari's 8 bit computers have stunning clarity and richness and it's hard to belive that the first models were launched already in 1979.

 

PNG, 684x492px, 13 KB (0.01 MB)

 

For some history behind Atari 800

http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/400800/ATARI800/A800.html

 

I recently learned that the custom chips in C64 was meant for next generations videogame console but ended up in C64 instead because Jack Tramiel wanted to launch a powerful computer to be able to compet with Atari.

 

And it's not all about gradients, Jet Set Willy is a perfect exemple of that. The first release use gradients and stinks in gameplay and graphics. Jet set Willy 2007 don't use a single gradient and is almost monochome but is so much more fun to play and true to the Spectrum orginal then the first version.

 

The first version of the game, including gradients.

 

PNG, 684x744px, 23 KB (0.02 MB)

 

Jet Set Willy 2007, superior in every way, including graphics.

 

PNG, 684x996px, 38 KB (0.04 MB)

 

To watch it live

 

Atari has some awesome software driven graphic modes too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software-driven_graphics_modes_for_the_Atari_8-bit_computers

 

As i understand of this discussion...

 

C64 is better at handling different screen resolutions and keeping the colours. C64 is better at handling multicolored sprites too. And the only drawback is the limited palette.

 

Thanks for an interesting discussion, i have learned several new exciting things i didn't knew before i entered this thread. No hard feelings, we retrobuffs should stick together instead of fighting.

 

Long live both C64, Atari and Speccy. Three great computers who have entertained so many under so many years, and still does today.

 

*shaking hands with TMR and the other ones on this thread*

 

For Last...

 

Have you heard the atari (pokey) music from polish group Greyscale?

 

I just sat there with my mouth wide open when i first heard these chiptunes and what they have done with the old atari chip. I really whis that my orginal Atari would have sounded like this.

 

Download it here...

 

Player + Some tunes

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/22117684/Pokey_Music_by_Greyscale_Sap_Player.zip

 

Unpack, no need to install anything. Just drag and drop the tunes on the player.

 

Begin listen to the AWESOME tune jatatap.sap

Edited April 25, 2010 by DimensionX

[TMR]

*shaking hands with TMR and the other ones on this thread*

 

Ain't going to happen.

[DimensionX]

*shaking hands with TMR and the other ones on this thread*

 

Ain't going to happen.

 

Well...

 

It's your own decision. I have nothing to say against that. You can hate me how much as you want, i don't hate you at all and are more then happy to shake hands with you anytime. And between us, i can understand why you are quite mad at me. I can also understand why i'm not.

 

Think about that for a while, even if i suspect that you already know.

 

No more battle. From now on i'm going to post about other things, and thanks for some real good information about C64 vs Atari that i didn't knew. But i hope that you have learned one importand thing under this conversation, never ever underestimate a computer. If you had been more open minded this discussion had been a lot nicer. But creative people like you and me often have a hot temper.

 

I whish you a good day TMR and good luck with your C64 programming.

[TMR]

I whish you a good day TMR and good luck with your C64 programming.

 

It was Atari 8-bit programming, but i've not decided if i'll be bothering with it any more.

[potatohead]

What i mean Pete is...

 

THIS is Atari and you can't do this on any other computer.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/142211-commodore-64-vs-atari-800-xl/page__view__findpost__p__1996387

 

This is how an Atari game should look.

 

Alternate Reality was very playable too.

 

Just so you know, a Color Computer 3 can do those screens almost exactly. It's 8 bits, released a bit late, but totally capable of that graphic style, text, the whole deal. See my blog for "Atari Style" graphics on that machine.

 

There was then, and we are in the now. Lots of things are known about these older computers that were not known then. So, here's the thing: You really like that style --Atari style. So do I, and most people on here agree. The same is true for the other machines, and their hardware impact on the games. That is what was so cool about that time in computing. Each machine had some texture to it, and that played out in gaming in ways we don't see much today.

 

Personally, I love that style, and the great games from the era. So do the other retro fans, with their machines of choice, meaning these VS threads do more harm than good, unless they are kept to hardware tricks, where we bend one machine to do the work of another that shouldn't have been possible.

 

Those are kick ass, which is why I have that CoCo stuff in my blog, and Groovybee has just posed up some 7800 tricks... That's where the magic is, and that's where the hearts and minds are won, just so you know. I've been watching the 7800 stuff, and I'm growing intrigued.

 

The fact that somebody really likes another machine shouldn't threaten your love for yours. Maybe that invokes a challenge, or something, and that's good, but it shouldn't cause the mess these things can cause. People walk on that, and look around! There just aren't that many of us, meaning we can and should take care of one another --at least that's how I see it.

[DimensionX]

I whish you a good day TMR and good luck with your C64 programming.

 

It was Atari 8-bit programming, but i've not decided if i'll be bothering with it any more.

 

My honest opinion is. Deal with the computer that you like best, all computers have it's own charm to work with. I have also been working as a programmer a couple of years ago but on PC with Visual Studio writing database applications and such stuff. But i'm not really the programmer type and rather work with apps like Photoshop and FL Studio.

 

Every retro computer freak have my blessing no matter what computer they like or work with.

 

Have a good evening TMR, i whish i was as skilled as you at programming older computers. Heck, i even struggle to type everything in english.

[DimensionX]

What i mean Pete is...

 

THIS is Atari and you can't do this on any other computer.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/142211-commodore-64-vs-atari-800-xl/page__view__findpost__p__1996387

 

This is how an Atari game should look.

 

Alternate Reality was very playable too.

 

Just so you know, a Color Computer 3 can do those screens almost exactly. It's 8 bits, released a bit late, but totally capable of that graphic style, text, the whole deal. See my blog for "Atari Style" graphics on that machine.

 

There was then, and we are in the now. Lots of things are known about these older computers that were not known then. So, here's the thing: You really like that style --Atari style. So do I, and most people on here agree. The same is true for the other machines, and their hardware impact on the games. That is what was so cool about that time in computing. Each machine had some texture to it, and that played out in gaming in ways we don't see much today.

 

Personally, I love that style, and the great games from the era. So do the other retro fans, with their machines of choice, meaning these VS threads do more harm than good, unless they are kept to hardware tricks, where we bend one machine to do the work of another that shouldn't have been possible.

 

Those are kick ass, which is why I have that CoCo stuff in my blog, and Groovybee has just posed up some 7800 tricks... That's where the magic is, and that's where the hearts and minds are won, just so you know. I've been watching the 7800 stuff, and I'm growing intrigued.

 

The fact that somebody really likes another machine shouldn't threaten your love for yours. Maybe that invokes a challenge, or something, and that's good, but it shouldn't cause the mess these things can cause. People walk on that, and look around! There just aren't that many of us, meaning we can and should take care of one another --at least that's how I see it.

 

Thanks for lots of sensible thoughts. I agree in what you're saying. Why battle? We are all retro freaks in one or another way who remember the old games and computers and still love them as much as we did then. I will take a closer look at Color Computer 3, thanks for the tips.

[TMR]

What i mean Pete is...

 

THIS is Atari and you can't do this on any other computer.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/142211-commodore-64-vs-atari-800-xl/page__view__findpost__p__1996387

 

This is how an Atari game should look.

 

Just so you know, a Color Computer 3 can do those screens almost exactly. It's 8 bits, released a bit late, but totally capable of that graphic style, text, the whole deal. See my blog for "Atari Style" graphics on that machine.

 

Those would also be possible on the Amstrad CPC Plus hardware and, although the colours won't match exactly, the Commodore 264 series could manage a close copy as well - both can handle more colours per scanline (that's the same on the Coco3 if memory serves?) so at least some of the issues where the A8 runs out of playfield registers could be patched too.

 

But if A8 games are meant to look like that... well, it makes them a feckloads easier to write!

 

Edit: forgot a couple more, the MSX2 upwards hardware'll do it standing on it's head and it should be viable on the SAM Coupe too. For something that supposedly can't be done on another computer, there seem to be a lot of machines able to handle it and we've not even mentioned more current 8-bits like the C64DTV...

Edited April 25, 2010 by TMR

[potatohead]

The CoCo 3 is just one byte per pixel, full on bitmap at 160 pixels resolution. The higher resolution 320 pixel mode is 16 colors / scan.

 

Just looked up that Amstrad machine. It looks funky cool!! There's the tape drive built right in too! Love machines like that.

[PeteD]

 

For Last...

 

Have you heard the atari (pokey) music from polish group Greyscale?

 

I just sat there with my mouth wide open when i first heard these chiptunes and what they have done with the old atari chip. I really whis that my orginal Atari would have sounded like this.

 

Download it here...

 

Player + Some tunes

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/22117684/Pokey_Music_by_Greyscale_Sap_Player.zip

 

Unpack, no need to install anything. Just drag and drop the tunes on the player.

 

Begin listen to the AWESOME tune jatatap.sap

 

Some nice tunes there. I think most of those are minimum stereo POKEY (in other words your old Atari couldn't sound like that) and probably called multiple times per frame to create a more "waveform/envelope" sound. Other than that I'm not commenting. To me SID wipes the floor with POKEY in most cases and I don't see the point in turning that into an argument

 

 

Pete

[DimensionX]

 

For Last...

 

Have you heard the atari (pokey) music from polish group Greyscale?

 

I just sat there with my mouth wide open when i first heard these chiptunes and what they have done with the old atari chip. I really whis that my orginal Atari would have sounded like this.

 

Download it here...

 

Player + Some tunes

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/22117684/Pokey_Music_by_Greyscale_Sap_Player.zip

 

Unpack, no need to install anything. Just drag and drop the tunes on the player.

 

Begin listen to the AWESOME tune jatatap.sap

 

Some nice tunes there. I think most of those are minimum stereo POKEY (in other words your old Atari couldn't sound like that) and probably called multiple times per frame to create a more "waveform/envelope" sound. Other than that I'm not commenting. To me SID wipes the floor with POKEY in most cases and I don't see the point in turning that into an argument

 

 

Pete

 

These tunes was made with a special pokey tracker and probably they used the double mode for the pokey chip to get things in stereo. Atari 800 has 4 channel sound, and that extra channel shows. SID has better quality on the sound, but not in the solo area. SID is perfect for fat bass sounds and fat analog synth sounds but very bad at ringing sounds.

 

I have noticed that the pokey chip seems to be very hard to get right tuned.

Edited April 25, 2010 by DimensionX

[DimensionX]

One question

 

What puzzles me a bit about Atari 800 is the quality of the colours. Not even the ST can produce such crystal clear colours even if Atari ST can show the same amount of colours on screen, using some tricks. Even if Atari ST show 512 colours on screen at once it isn't those clear colours that we can see on Atari 800. Is that the because of the GTIA + Antic chip? In fact, the only computer i have seen that could produce that clear shiny quality on the colours is Amiga.

 

Not to say that the ST is bad, but it can't produce that type of colours as Atari 800. I have watched countless of Atari ST demos but non of them can match the display on the 800.

[DimensionX]

One question

 

What puzzles me a bit about Atari 800 is the quality of the colours. Not even the ST can produce such crystal clear colours even if Atari ST can show the same amount of colours on screen, using some tricks. Even if Atari ST show 512 colours on screen at once it isn't those clear colours that we can see on Atari 800. Is that the because of the GTIA + Antic chip? In fact, the only computer i have seen that could produce that clear shiny quality on the colours is Amiga.

 

Not to say that the ST is bad, but it can't produce that type of colours as Atari 800. I have watched countless of Atari ST demos but non of them can match the display on the 800.

 

Atari 800 Pokeychip plays...

 

Jatatap.sap (mp3) (i rendered in winamp)

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/22125056/01_jatatap_tm8_song_1_of_1.mp3

 

Their site

http://grayscale.scene.pl/en_index.php

 

We create our music with ATARI XE/XL computer, using (usually) Theta Music Composer by Jaskier/Taquart, the most advanced Atari XE/XL tracker. One can listen our modules with your PC - thanks to the SAP files you can download from this page. You can listen to them via (for example) SAP Player or via Winamp thanks to the Winamp ASAP-plugin.

 

It is two real Pokey chips on this song which is played by two XL or XE computers. The rest is skill from the musicians.

 

- Stereo with two Pokeys: There already exist dozens of sounds and demos,

that support this upgrade, most of these programs were made in Poland,

but a few sound-demos were also made in other countries. Anyway, the

following programs support stereo via two Pokey chips:

 

- stereo with two computers (thus two Pokeys): Afaik for this simple trick

there merely exist two programs, they are "Perestroyka" and "Sky

Network" by T.Liebich. In order to achieve the stereo effect, you

have to boot/load one of these demos on two computers (connected to

different TVs or monitors, there is no need to connect the computers to

each other!). When done, press 1-5 on the first computer while pressing

Shift-1-5 on the second computer. Meaning, if you want to hear the first

sound in stereo then press 1 on computer 1 and press Shift-1 on

computer 2 simultanously (that`s a little tricky, I know). If you want

to hear sound 5 in stereo, then press 5 on computer 1 and Shift-5 on

computer 2 simultanously. Tricky at first, but sooner or later you will

get the hang of it. Of course you can also connect the two Ataris to

a hifi-system, using the sound output of one Atari for the left channel

and the sound output of the other Atari for the right channel...

http://www.atarimania.com/faq-atari-400-800-xl-xe-what-programs-support-stereo-and-upgraded-sound_77.html

Edited April 25, 2010 by DimensionX

[PeteD]

 

For Last...

 

Have you heard the atari (pokey) music from polish group Greyscale?

 

I just sat there with my mouth wide open when i first heard these chiptunes and what they have done with the old atari chip. I really whis that my orginal Atari would have sounded like this.

 

Download it here...

 

Player + Some tunes

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/22117684/Pokey_Music_by_Greyscale_Sap_Player.zip

 

Unpack, no need to install anything. Just drag and drop the tunes on the player.

 

Begin listen to the AWESOME tune jatatap.sap

 

Some nice tunes there. I think most of those are minimum stereo POKEY (in other words your old Atari couldn't sound like that) and probably called multiple times per frame to create a more "waveform/envelope" sound. Other than that I'm not commenting. To me SID wipes the floor with POKEY in most cases and I don't see the point in turning that into an argument

 

 

Pete

 

These tunes was made with a special pokey tracker and probably they used the double mode for the pokey chip to get things in stereo. Atari 800 has 4 channel sound, and that extra channel shows. SID has better quality on the sound, but not in the solo area. SID is perfect for fat bass sounds and fat analog synth sounds but very bad at ringing sounds.

 

I have noticed that the pokey chip seems to be very hard to get right tuned.

 

If we're talking facts again POKEY has 4 8 bit channels, c64 has 3 16 bit ones. C64 can play IN TUNE on any of those channels. To play in tune (and yes, there's a range where it's "mostly" right in 8bit) on POKEY you have to combine 2 channels to form one 16 bit one, therefore to get 16 bit accurate (ie, in tune, something quite important with music) notes you really only have 2 channels The reason most people like to use stero POKEY (and once again, it's not a standard, either 2 machines or 2 chips on 1 machine) is because you can combine those channels (now and end up with 4 again I won't go into the C64's standard effects, waveforms, adsr, filters, pwm, ring mod, etc etc that POKEY doesn't have.

 

I think there's another misconception with A8 owners that SID can ONLY do bass notes. Until you've listened to at least 10% of the thousands of tunes in the High Voltage SID Collection I don't think you can judge that, it sounds like the same thing I read over and over from A8 owners.

 

 

Pete

[PeteD]

One question

 

What puzzles me a bit about Atari 800 is the quality of the colours. Not even the ST can produce such crystal clear colours even if Atari ST can show the same amount of colours on screen, using some tricks. Even if Atari ST show 512 colours on screen at once it isn't those clear colours that we can see on Atari 800. Is that the because of the GTIA + Antic chip? In fact, the only computer i have seen that could produce that clear shiny quality on the colours is Amiga.

 

Not to say that the ST is bad, but it can't produce that type of colours as Atari 800. I have watched countless of Atari ST demos but non of them can match the display on the 800.

 

Atari 800 Pokeychip plays...

 

Jatatap.sap (mp3) (i rendered in winamp)

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/22125056/01_jatatap_tm8_song_1_of_1.mp3

 

Their site

http://grayscale.scene.pl/en_index.php

 

We create our music with ATARI XE/XL computer, using (usually) Theta Music Composer by Jaskier/Taquart, the most advanced Atari XE/XL tracker. One can listen our modules with your PC - thanks to the SAP files you can download from this page. You can listen to them via (for example) SAP Player or via Winamp thanks to the Winamp ASAP-plugin.

 

It is two real Pokey chips on this song which is played by two XL or XE computers. The rest is skill from the musicians.

 

- Stereo with two Pokeys: There already exist dozens of sounds and demos,

that support this upgrade, most of these programs were made in Poland,

but a few sound-demos were also made in other countries. Anyway, the

following programs support stereo via two Pokey chips:

 

- stereo with two computers (thus two Pokeys): Afaik for this simple trick

there merely exist two programs, they are "Perestroyka" and "Sky

Network" by T.Liebich. In order to achieve the stereo effect, you

have to boot/load one of these demos on two computers (connected to

different TVs or monitors, there is no need to connect the computers to

each other!). When done, press 1-5 on the first computer while pressing

Shift-1-5 on the second computer. Meaning, if you want to hear the first

sound in stereo then press 1 on computer 1 and press Shift-1 on

computer 2 simultanously (that`s a little tricky, I know). If you want

to hear sound 5 in stereo, then press 5 on computer 1 and Shift-5 on

computer 2 simultanously. Tricky at first, but sooner or later you will

get the hang of it. Of course you can also connect the two Ataris to

a hifi-system, using the sound output of one Atari for the left channel

and the sound output of the other Atari for the right channel...

http://www.atarimania.com/faq-atari-400-800-xl-xe-what-programs-support-stereo-and-upgraded-sound_77.html

 

All of that just goes to prove that a standard Atari that you would've owned back in the day couldn't produce those sounds.

 

If you combine 2 SIDs....

 

I think you'll find most of us know this stuff already so don't assume we're arguing or disagreeing coming from an ignorant background. We're all retro fans, multi-platform, some of us have worked on these machines for a living, some have done homebrew/demos across a wide number of them.

 

 

Pete

Edited April 25, 2010 by PeteD

[DimensionX]

 

For Last...

 

Have you heard the atari (pokey) music from polish group Greyscale?

 

I just sat there with my mouth wide open when i first heard these chiptunes and what they have done with the old atari chip. I really whis that my orginal Atari would have sounded like this.

 

Download it here...

 

Player + Some tunes

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/22117684/Pokey_Music_by_Greyscale_Sap_Player.zip

 

Unpack, no need to install anything. Just drag and drop the tunes on the player.

 

Begin listen to the AWESOME tune jatatap.sap

 

Some nice tunes there. I think most of those are minimum stereo POKEY (in other words your old Atari couldn't sound like that) and probably called multiple times per frame to create a more "waveform/envelope" sound. Other than that I'm not commenting. To me SID wipes the floor with POKEY in most cases and I don't see the point in turning that into an argument

 

 

Pete

 

These tunes was made with a special pokey tracker and probably they used the double mode for the pokey chip to get things in stereo. Atari 800 has 4 channel sound, and that extra channel shows. SID has better quality on the sound, but not in the solo area. SID is perfect for fat bass sounds and fat analog synth sounds but very bad at ringing sounds.

 

I have noticed that the pokey chip seems to be very hard to get right tuned.

 

If we're talking facts again POKEY has 4 8 bit channels, c64 has 3 16 bit ones. C64 can play IN TUNE on any of those channels. To play in tune (and yes, there's a range where it's "mostly" right in 8bit) on POKEY you have to combine 2 channels to form one 16 bit one, therefore to get 16 bit accurate (ie, in tune, something quite important with music) notes you really only have 2 channels The reason most people like to use stero POKEY (and once again, it's not a standard, either 2 machines or 2 chips on 1 machine) is because you can combine those channels (now and end up with 4 again I won't go into the C64's standard effects, waveforms, adsr, filters, pwm, ring mod, etc etc that POKEY doesn't have.

 

I think there's another misconception with A8 owners that SID can ONLY do bass notes. Until you've listened to at least 10% of the thousands of tunes in the High Voltage SID Collection I don't think you can judge that, it sounds like the same thing I read over and over from A8 owners.

 

 

Pete

 

SID has 3 physical channels, Pokey has 4 physical channels, the "bit" of them is irrelevant to the number of physical channels.

 

And yes, i have about 100.000 or more sid chiptunes and the whole sap collection. SID is good for certain type sounds like all sound generators. You will not find a single chip in any synth who could do all sounds, that's why we have FM, AM, Ringmodulated and hundreds of other synth types. SID always sounds a certain way, it's called the SID sound. SID is good for certain types of sounds but less good on other. If you want good ringing sound, choose FM (frequency modulation) for exemple. Like in good old DX7 and Sega Genesis.

[PeteD]

 

 

SID has 3 physical channels, Pokey has 4 physical channels, the "bit" of them is irrelevant to the number of physical channels.

 

And yes, i have about 100.000 or more sid chiptunes and the whole sap collection. SID is good for certain type sounds like all sound generators. You will not find a single chip in any synth who could do all sounds, that's why we have FM, AM, Ringmodulated and hundreds of other synth types. SID always sounds a certain way, it's called the SID sound. SID is good for certain types of sounds but less good on other. If you want good ringing sound, choose FM (frequency modulation) for exemple. Like in good old DX7 and Sega Genesis.

 

Please don't start the 4 vs 3 again. Yes, physical channels, 4 vs 3, but you can't brush aside the bits like that, 16 bit is a MASSIVE difference to 8 bits for accuracy, 65536/256 so saying it doesn't matter when you're trying to get a note in tune and an 8 bit channel can't manage it means either you're happy with out of tune music or you're just trying to brush it under the carpet.

 

Also, HVSC only contains around 38k tunes, so 100,000 is a BIT of an exaggeration, no?

 

Pete

[DimensionX]

One question

 

What puzzles me a bit about Atari 800 is the quality of the colours. Not even the ST can produce such crystal clear colours even if Atari ST can show the same amount of colours on screen, using some tricks. Even if Atari ST show 512 colours on screen at once it isn't those clear colours that we can see on Atari 800. Is that the because of the GTIA + Antic chip? In fact, the only computer i have seen that could produce that clear shiny quality on the colours is Amiga.

 

Not to say that the ST is bad, but it can't produce that type of colours as Atari 800. I have watched countless of Atari ST demos but non of them can match the display on the 800.

 

Atari 800 Pokeychip plays...

 

Jatatap.sap (mp3) (i rendered in winamp)

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/22125056/01_jatatap_tm8_song_1_of_1.mp3

 

Their site

http://grayscale.scene.pl/en_index.php

 

We create our music with ATARI XE/XL computer, using (usually) Theta Music Composer by Jaskier/Taquart, the most advanced Atari XE/XL tracker. One can listen our modules with your PC - thanks to the SAP files you can download from this page. You can listen to them via (for example) SAP Player or via Winamp thanks to the Winamp ASAP-plugin.

 

It is two real Pokey chips on this song which is played by two XL or XE computers. The rest is skill from the musicians.

 

- Stereo with two Pokeys: There already exist dozens of sounds and demos,

that support this upgrade, most of these programs were made in Poland,

but a few sound-demos were also made in other countries. Anyway, the

following programs support stereo via two Pokey chips:

 

- stereo with two computers (thus two Pokeys): Afaik for this simple trick

there merely exist two programs, they are "Perestroyka" and "Sky

Network" by T.Liebich. In order to achieve the stereo effect, you

have to boot/load one of these demos on two computers (connected to

different TVs or monitors, there is no need to connect the computers to

each other!). When done, press 1-5 on the first computer while pressing

Shift-1-5 on the second computer. Meaning, if you want to hear the first

sound in stereo then press 1 on computer 1 and press Shift-1 on

computer 2 simultanously (that`s a little tricky, I know). If you want

to hear sound 5 in stereo, then press 5 on computer 1 and Shift-5 on

computer 2 simultanously. Tricky at first, but sooner or later you will

get the hang of it. Of course you can also connect the two Ataris to

a hifi-system, using the sound output of one Atari for the left channel

and the sound output of the other Atari for the right channel...

http://www.atarimania.com/faq-atari-400-800-xl-xe-what-programs-support-stereo-and-upgraded-sound_77.html

 

All of that just goes to prove that a standard Atari that you would've owned back in the day couldn't produce those sounds.

 

If you combine 2 SIDs....

 

I think you'll find most of us know this stuff already so don't assume we're arguing or disagreeing coming from an ignorant background. We're all retro fans, multi-platform, some of us have worked on these machines for a living, some have done homebrew/demos across a wide number of them.

 

 

Pete

 

This wasn't to make anything look bad, just to show that you can make good music with pokey too, if you're skilled enough. Most of Grayscales songs sound surprisingly good. SID have all the power and fatness in the sound that Pokey lacks, but Pokey has one more channel and is a bit better at generate ringing sounds. But if we look at it general, Sid wins quite easily.

[DimensionX]

 

 

SID has 3 physical channels, Pokey has 4 physical channels, the "bit" of them is irrelevant to the number of physical channels.

 

And yes, i have about 100.000 or more sid chiptunes and the whole sap collection. SID is good for certain type sounds like all sound generators. You will not find a single chip in any synth who could do all sounds, that's why we have FM, AM, Ringmodulated and hundreds of other synth types. SID always sounds a certain way, it's called the SID sound. SID is good for certain types of sounds but less good on other. If you want good ringing sound, choose FM (frequency modulation) for exemple. Like in good old DX7 and Sega Genesis.

 

Please don't start the 4 vs 3 again. Yes, physical channels, 4 vs 3, but you can't brush aside the bits like that, 16 bit is a MASSIVE difference to 8 bits for accuracy, 65536/256 so saying it doesn't matter when you're trying to get a note in tune and an 8 bit channel can't manage it means either you're happy with out of tune music or you're just trying to brush it under the carpet.

 

Also, HVSC only contains around 38k tunes, so 100,000 is a BIT of an exaggeration, no?

 

Pete

 

No, 46 MB in total, zipped.

 

Sap archive is 8.9 MB in total

[ANTIQ]

One question

 

What puzzles me a bit about Atari 800 is the quality of the colours. Not even the ST can produce such crystal clear colours even if Atari ST can show the same amount of colours on screen, using some tricks. Even if Atari ST show 512 colours on screen at once it isn't those clear colours that we can see on Atari 800. Is that the because of the GTIA + Antic chip? In fact, the only computer i have seen that could produce that clear shiny quality on the colours is Amiga.

 

Not to say that the ST is bad, but it can't produce that type of colours as Atari 800. I have watched countless of Atari ST demos but non of them can match the display on the 800.

 

Put very simply, the ST has many more colours than the A8 but fewer shades of each colour.

[PeteD]

 

This wasn't to make anything look bad, just to show that you can make good music with pokey too, if you're skilled enough. Most of Grayscales songs sound surprisingly good. SID have all the power and fatness in the sound that Pokey lacks, but Pokey has one more channel and is a bit better at generate ringing sounds. But if we look at it general, Sid wins quite easily.

 

I won't argue that there are some great tunes on the A8. I quit like POKEY when it's done well like some of those Grayscale tunes, other stuff I've heard recently is badly out of tune and hurts my ears. I'll also agree that POKEY has the edge on that "ringing sound" but once again, understand why most of those tunes are stereo, if you tried to copy a C64 tune, 3x16bit to POKEY you would never get the notes in tune because the range is generally too great. Therefore you sacrifice a channel every time you need more accuracy. Take that to 2 SID channels and suddenly POKEY is a 2 channel chip. That's why stereo is used with 4x16bit (2x8bits combined for each channel) so the note accuracy can still be had with 4 channels. As a music production method I've got no problem with multiple POKEY stuff, just trying to get you to understand the importance of the 8/16 bit thing and how it applies to the 4 vs 3 channels.

 

 

Pete

Edited April 25, 2010 by PeteD

[PeteD]

 

 

SID has 3 physical channels, Pokey has 4 physical channels, the "bit" of them is irrelevant to the number of physical channels.

 

And yes, i have about 100.000 or more sid chiptunes and the whole sap collection. SID is good for certain type sounds like all sound generators. You will not find a single chip in any synth who could do all sounds, that's why we have FM, AM, Ringmodulated and hundreds of other synth types. SID always sounds a certain way, it's called the SID sound. SID is good for certain types of sounds but less good on other. If you want good ringing sound, choose FM (frequency modulation) for exemple. Like in good old DX7 and Sega Genesis.

 

Please don't start the 4 vs 3 again. Yes, physical channels, 4 vs 3, but you can't brush aside the bits like that, 16 bit is a MASSIVE difference to 8 bits for accuracy, 65536/256 so saying it doesn't matter when you're trying to get a note in tune and an 8 bit channel can't manage it means either you're happy with out of tune music or you're just trying to brush it under the carpet.

 

Also, HVSC only contains around 38k tunes, so 100,000 is a BIT of an exaggeration, no?

 

Pete

 

No, 46 MB in total, zipped.

 

Sap archive is 8.9 MB in total

 

No,

 

HVSC #52 Merry Christmas SID worshipper! Here are some 874 new and 65 fixed sids to ease the christmas stress. The total tune count is boosted to 37.801 tunes, enjoy! For the full text of the announcement please read here.

 

Maybe you though I meant every SID tune fit in 38k? In which case

 

 

Pete

Edited April 25, 2010 by PeteD

[PeteD]

One question

 

What puzzles me a bit about Atari 800 is the quality of the colours. Not even the ST can produce such crystal clear colours even if Atari ST can show the same amount of colours on screen, using some tricks. Even if Atari ST show 512 colours on screen at once it isn't those clear colours that we can see on Atari 800. Is that the because of the GTIA + Antic chip? In fact, the only computer i have seen that could produce that clear shiny quality on the colours is Amiga.

 

Not to say that the ST is bad, but it can't produce that type of colours as Atari 800. I have watched countless of Atari ST demos but non of them can match the display on the 800.

 

Put very simply, the ST has many more colours than the A8 but fewer shades of each colour.

 

Hasn't the ST got a bit of a crappy RF out as well? I always thought it looked a bit dull and washed out.

 

 

Pete

[DimensionX]

The point for me to post in this thread was to show that C64 isn't superior to Atari 800. Both machines are good in their own rights and it depends on what you're looking for.

 

I made the misstake myself by underestimated both C64, Spectrum and Megadrive. Big misstake from me.

 

DimensionX - Ha, SNES is superior to Genesis, Genesis have a palette of only 512 colours and a limit of only 64 on screen colours. You can't compare it to SNES.

 

DimensionX *is testing Sonic II*

 

DimensionX - Ooops, i must by myself a Genesis...

 

Edited April 25, 2010 by DimensionX