Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[DimensionX]

At last you admitted that.

 

i've said all the time that the C64 couldn't replicate that ONE GAME EXACTLY you idiot, the point is that the concession of dropping all the "pretty" rainbow colours (there are Atari coders who will tell you it doesn't look particularly good, by the way) isn't a deal breaker and the game is just as playable. The things that the C64 does that the A8 can't replicate are more important for actually making games.

 

Are we finished with this discussion now?

 

No, because you made bogus claims about Xenon being possible on the A8 and still haven't proved it - presumably because you haven't got a clue how the A8 hardware actually works and should therefore not be posting to this PROGRAMMING DISCUSSION AT ALL.

 

It's not only that game. A lot of games couldn't be reproduced on the C64, because of the colours. Atari has many more, remember? Besides that A8 can do some graphical tricks that C64 can't. What you get is NOT the Atarigame.

 

Xenon is for sure playable on the C64 too...

 

Nuff said

 

Graphics matters.

 

I have posted lots of games that the C64 never could recreate with it's tiny palette of only 16 colours.

 

But you will for sure get them "playable", like Xenon or the C64 version of Alternate Reality, minus all the magic colours.

 

Well, i can't program a "Xenon" within days. But who knows, perhaps someone puts up a remake of Bitmap Brothers excellent shooter. Fine nuances shouldn't be a problem anyway.

Edited April 28, 2010 by DimensionX

[+GroovyBee]

Well, i can't program a "Xenon" within days.

 

You don't need to program it you just make a mock-up of the screen using the A8 palette and take into account the limitations of the hardware. As programmers (who you are arguing with) we are all able to specify how graphics for our favourite machines should be drawn if we have an artist on board for our projects. Since you are the expert at saying what is possible, please show us.

[ceti331]

various platforms of Alternate Reality screenshots>

 

Sorry IMO this Alternate Reality game is a bonkers comparison

 

Its just still pictures, and they've clearly been badly converted between formats. i wonder which format was the original.

the C64 can handle stills much better than these as proven elsewhere on the thread. It would have to dither, but it has roughly 5 shades of grey, red-browns or blues from what i could gather

 

If the A8 shots are "better" than the Amiga, thats clearly down to it being a bad conversion and nothing to do with relative hardware merits of the platforms.

 

The amiga can of course do same 'rainbows', as well as displaying propper shades of detailed graphics 16 vs 8bit isn't a fair comparison (unless its PC-engine ..)

Edited April 28, 2010 by ceti331

[DimensionX]

Well, i can't program a "Xenon" within days.

 

You don't need to program it you just make a mock-up of the screen using the A8 palette and take into account the limitations of the hardware. As programmers (who you are arguing with) we are all able to specify how graphics for our favourite machines should be drawn if we have an artist on board for our projects. Since you are the expert at saying what is possible, please show us.

 

The basic point is...

 

Xenon uses shades

 

C64 can't use shades of more then grey, possible, and then we don't even talking fine shades.

 

Xenon is all about shades, something that A8 can display.

 

You will not get an exact copy of the ST game, but you will get something that looks more Xenon thanks to shades.

 

Shades of green, shades of blue, shades of yellow, that's Xenon.

Edited April 28, 2010 by DimensionX

[DimensionX]

various platforms of Alternate Reality screenshots>

 

Sorry IMO this Alternate Reality game is a bonkers comparison

 

Its just still pictures, and they've clearly been badly converted between formats. i wonder which format was the original.

the C64 can handle stills much better than these as proven elsewhere on the thread. It would have to dither, but it has roughly 5 shades of grey, red-browns or blues from what i could gather

 

If the A8 shots are "better" than the Amiga, thats clearly down to it being a bad conversion and nothing to do with relative hardware merits of the platforms.

 

The amiga can of course do same 'rainbows', as well as displaying propper shades of detailed graphics 16 vs 8bit isn't a fair comparison (unless its PC-engine ..)

 

Alternate Reality is not only still pictures, it's moving too. You walk around in AR.

[TMR]

It's not only that game. A lot of games couldn't be reproduced on the C64, because of the colours. Atari has many more, remember? Besides that A8 can do some graphical tricks that C64 can't. What you get is NOT the Atarigame.

 

No it's not, but at the same time people playing the game probably didn't care less and it's only fanboys like you who get all excited about the colours; dedicated Atari programmers on this very message board have said in public in other threads that Alternative Reality isn't particularly well done because it runs out of on-screen colours and rainbow splits the buildings.

 

Xenon is for sure playable on the C64 too...

 

No it isn't, it's a terrible game on all platforms and we're not even talking about playability in that particular case, just your bogus and totally unproven claims that the A8 could do it better.

 

Graphics matters.

 

Graphics. Not colours, graphics. They aren't the same thing.

[DimensionX]

It's not only that game. A lot of games couldn't be reproduced on the C64, because of the colours. Atari has many more, remember? Besides that A8 can do some graphical tricks that C64 can't. What you get is NOT the Atarigame.

 

No it's not, but at the same time people playing the game probably didn't care less and it's only fanboys like you who get all excited about the colours; dedicated Atari programmers on this very message board have said in public in other threads that Alternative Reality isn't particularly well done because it runs out of on-screen colours and rainbow splits the buildings.

 

Xenon is for sure playable on the C64 too...

 

No it isn't, it's a terrible game on all platforms and we're not even talking about playability in that particular case, just your bogus and totally unproven claims that the A8 could do it better.

 

Graphics matters.

 

Graphics. Not colours, graphics. They aren't the same thing.

 

Colours is a part of the graphics, if they are used.

[+GroovyBee]

 

The basic point is...

 

Xenon uses shades

 

So... Just a make a mock-up using shades.

 

C64 can't use shades of more then grey, possible, and then we don't even talking fine shades.

 

I'm not talking about the C64. I'd like to see your mock-up of how Xenon would look on the Atari 800XL.

 

Arguing with a bunch of programmers (in the programmers forum) when you can't back up your claims with solid evidence isn't going to make you look good. If we say that we can do something we can produce a demonstration showing it. If you say that the A8 can do something, even if you aren't a programmer, you can still show us by drawing an image using the A8 palette and taking into account the constraints of the system.

[DimensionX]

 

The basic point is...

 

Xenon uses shades

 

So... Just a make a mock-up using shades.

 

C64 can't use shades of more then grey, possible, and then we don't even talking fine shades.

 

I'm not talking about the C64. I'd like to see your mock-up of how Xenon would look on the Atari 800XL.

 

Arguing with a bunch of programmers (in the programmers forum) when you can't back up your claims with solid evidence isn't going to make you look good. If we say that we can do something we can produce a demonstration showing it. If you say that the A8 can do something, even if you aren't a programmer, you can still show us by drawing an image using the A8 palette and taking into account the constraints of the system.

 

I'm about the only one here who post something that confiirms what i say?

 

That's why i post screenshots all the time.

 

Where are your screenshots?

 

I hear soo much, but i see very little that backs it up.

 

I said that yesterday too.

Edited April 28, 2010 by DimensionX

[TMR]

The basic point is...

 

Xenon uses shades

 

C64 can't use shades of more then grey, possible, and then we don't even talking fine shades.

 

 

Looks like shades to me. Two shades of blue with light grey as highlight, three shades of grey and the yellow bit is done almost exactly the same way as the ST using shades of grey and yellow. Your turn to produce a mock-up or shut up.

[+GroovyBee]

I'm about the only one here who post something that confiirms what i say?

 

In a programmers forum, screenshots of something you didn't design, code or draw graphics for mean absolutely nothing .

 

Where are your screenshots?

 

I don't need screenshots for Xenon. You are the one making claims that it could look better on the A8. Please show us all.

[DimensionX]

The basic point is...

 

Xenon uses shades

 

C64 can't use shades of more then grey, possible, and then we don't even talking fine shades.

 

 

Looks like shades to me. Two shades of blue with light grey as highlight, three shades of grey and the yellow bit is done almost exactly the same way as the ST using shades of grey and yellow. Your turn to produce a mock-up or shut up.

 

Shades of two colours?

 

Are you joking?

 

I'm speaking shades. Fine nuances of one colour.

[DimensionX]

I'm about the only one here who post something that confiirms what i say?

 

In a programmers forum, screenshots of something you didn't design, code or draw graphics for mean absolutely nothing .

 

Where are your screenshots?

 

I don't need screenshots for Xenon. You are the one making claims that it could look better on the A8. Please show us all.

 

Are you joking?

 

That was almost too silly.

 

Then no one can ever post a screenshot of a game to prove something?

 

So, if i say that the ST version of Xenon looks much better then the C64 version, then i can't post some screens of the actual game graphics to prove it?

 

Are you kidding?

 

And if i say that MR Robot in the Atari version uses gradiant graphics and the C64 version does not.

 

I can't post a screen to prove it?

 

I will have a hard time to take you seriously from now on...

Edited April 28, 2010 by DimensionX

[+GroovyBee]

Shades of two colours?

 

Are you joking?

 

I'm speaking shades. Fine nuances of one colour.

 

No we aren't joking. We don't know what you mean. Please show us YOUR MOCK-UP of Atari 800XL Xenon so that we can compare it against TMRs C64 version.

[DimensionX]

Shades of two colours?

 

Are you joking?

 

I'm speaking shades. Fine nuances of one colour.

 

No we aren't joking. We don't know what you mean. Please show us YOUR MOCK-UP of Atari 800XL Xenon so that we can compare it against TMRs C64 version.

 

C'mon, stop fooling around.

 

It just becomes silly. You're WELL aware of what shades of a colour is. Atari can normally handle 8 shades of all colours.

Edited April 28, 2010 by DimensionX

[+GroovyBee]

Then no one can ever post a screenshot of a game to prove something?

 

You are in the PROGRAMMERS FORUM this discussion isn't in the general A8 section. Arguing with programmers when all you've got is screenshots and you can't explain why design decisions were made, how the code works or what the limitations of the machine are just make you look as bright as a .1W light bulb.

 

So, if i say that the ST version of Xenon looks much better then the C64 version, then i can't post some screens of the actual game graphics to prove it?

 

When one is a 1MHz 8 bit machine and the other is an 8MHz 16/32 bit machine its not going to be a fair comparison is it?

[+GroovyBee]

It just becomes silly. You're WELL aware of what shades of a colour is. Atari can normally handle 8 shades of all colours.

 

No! I'm too stupid to visualise such techniques as they would be used in Xenon on the A8 range. Please show me in your mock-up how I can do it.

[TMR]

The basic point is...

 

Xenon uses shades

 

C64 can't use shades of more then grey, possible, and then we don't even talking fine shades.

 

 

Looks like shades to me. Two shades of blue with light grey as highlight, three shades of grey and the yellow bit is done almost exactly the same way as the ST using shades of grey and yellow. Your turn to produce a mock-up or shut up.

 

Shades of two colours?

 

Are you joking?

 

I'm speaking shades. Fine nuances of one colour.

 

Fine nuances that you will not be able to use on a mock-up of Xenon, at least not one that will actually work as a game. Again, mock-up or shut up.

[DimensionX]

Then no one can ever post a screenshot of a game to prove something?

 

You are in the PROGRAMMERS FORUM this discussion isn't in the general A8 section. Arguing with programmers when all you've got is screenshots and you can't explain why design decisions were made, how the code works or what the limitations of the machine are just make you look as bright as a .1W light bulb.

 

So, if i say that the ST version of Xenon looks much better then the C64 version, then i can't post some screens of the actual game graphics to prove it?

 

When one is a 1MHz 8 bit machine and the other is an 8MHz 16/32 bit machine its not going to be a fair comparison is it?

 

Please, at least try to understand?

 

We are discussing C64 vs A8?

 

Are we?

 

We are NOT discussing programming but hardware limits and which computer is the better one?

 

I have posted countless of screens so far to prove what i say while some of you bring both pointless and silly arguments. You can't discuss with people who don't want to listen, or backup what they say.

 

By judging of games like Warhawk for A8, it's possible to create a vertical scolling shooter with metal graphics, like Xenon. But how close you will get to the orginal version is another story.

Edited April 28, 2010 by DimensionX

[DimensionX]

The basic point is...

 

Xenon uses shades

 

C64 can't use shades of more then grey, possible, and then we don't even talking fine shades.

 

 

Looks like shades to me. Two shades of blue with light grey as highlight, three shades of grey and the yellow bit is done almost exactly the same way as the ST using shades of grey and yellow. Your turn to produce a mock-up or shut up.

 

Shades of two colours?

 

Are you joking?

 

I'm speaking shades. Fine nuances of one colour.

 

Fine nuances that you will not be able to use on a mock-up of Xenon, at least not one that will actually work as a game. Again, mock-up or shut up.

 

That isn't shades, that is different colours. Please listen.

 

When using shades you use fine nuances of the same colour.

 

Shades look like a "material", this looks like different colours.

 

When it's time for yellow, you will only have one colour on the palette...

 

And you'll need at least 4 nuances to create something that looks like Xenon.

Edited April 28, 2010 by DimensionX

[+GroovyBee]

We are discussing C64 vs A8?

 

Are we?

 

At the moment we are discussing your lack of a mock-up for something that you say would be better on the A8.

 

We are NOT discussing programming but hardware limits and which computer is the better one?

 

Programming and hardware limits are very, very closely linked.

 

I have posted countless of screens so far to prove what i say while some of you bring both pointless and silly arguments. You can't discuss with people who don't want to listen, or backup what they say.

 

Please backup what you say with your Xenon mock-up on the A8.

 

By judging of games like Warhawk for A8, it's possible to create a vertical scolling shooter with metal graphics, like Xenon. But how close you will get to the orginal version is another story.

 

Please show us. We await your 800XL Xenon Kung Fu magic with baited breath.

[DimensionX]

We are discussing C64 vs A8?

 

Are we?

 

At the moment we are discussing your lack of a mock-up for something that you say would be better on the A8.

 

We are NOT discussing programming but hardware limits and which computer is the better one?

 

Programming and hardware limits are very, very closely linked.

 

I have posted countless of screens so far to prove what i say while some of you bring both pointless and silly arguments. You can't discuss with people who don't want to listen, or backup what they say.

 

Please backup what you say with your Xenon mock-up on the A8.

 

By judging of games like Warhawk for A8, it's possible to create a vertical scolling shooter with metal graphics, like Xenon. But how close you will get to the orginal version is another story.

 

Please show us. We await your 800XL Xenon Kung Fu magic with baited breath.

 

To discuss with people who don't want to listen, is a waste of time. If you are about to annoy someone, please do it with some finess.

 

I'm sooo tired of repeating the same things over and over again.

Edited April 28, 2010 by DimensionX

[DimensionX]

I hear lots of pretty words of how much better C64 is all the time and how worthless A8 is. Perhaps it's time to post some evidence to back it up?

 

Let me get this straight.

 

Atari has many colours, that can't be used proper

 

That's pure bull.

 

C64 with it's 16 colours can recreate games from Atari that uses both more and different colourschemes.

 

That's bull too

 

And it shows in all screenshots. Even in games from 1983.

 

Get real, else it just becomes silly.

 

*taking a break*

 

Because i find it hopeless to even try to discuss with fanatics.

[+GroovyBee]

To discuss with people who don't want to listen, is a waste of time. If you are about to annoy someone, please do it with some finess.

 

Pictures are worth a thousand words. Please provide a Xenon A8 mock-up or admit that you don't know if would look better on the A8 because you can't prove it.

[ceti331]

I think A8 Xenon would look something like this...