Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[DimensionX]

Here's the ST version in 320x200

 

Not much dithering used to create new shades?

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[PeteD]

To create a smooth detailed look like in Bitmap brothers games, use real shades. The resolution is too low to be dithered. You will loose all detail.

 

Bitmap often used about three different spreads and some well thoughtout single colours.

 

Yes this is why i liked the BB games. More real detail due to all the shades. Didn't matter that most of the objects were the same colours.

BB games did resort to dithering on larger elements.. Xenon's 3rd boss, etc etc.

Other more 'colourfull' games had to dither more.

 

i think on many TV's the 320 pixels wide tended to blur ordered dither together very well

 

BB games should be split into 2 really, Dan Malone games or Mark Coleman (totally different style)

[ceti331]

Here's the ST version in 320x200

 

Not much dithering used to create new shades?

 

You've gone out of your way to pick the least dithered image, this has dithering all over the place.. even for flat shades (cliff tops)

 

broken image link taken from..

http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/abandonware/amiga/games_c/chaos_engine.html

look at the image of the level exit

 

even more in the next metalic level

Edited May 8, 2010 by ceti331

[PeteD]

Here's the ST version in 320x200

 

Not much dithering used to create new shades?

 

There's as much there (tree trunks, shadows, sprites etc) as there is in the other one considering there's barely anything on the screen.

[DimensionX]

To create a smooth detailed look like in Bitmap brothers games, use real shades. The resolution is too low to be dithered. You will loose all detail.

 

Bitmap often used about three different spreads and some well thoughtout single colours.

 

Yes this is why i liked the BB games. More real detail due to all the shades. Didn't matter that most of the objects were the same colours.

BB games did resort to dithering on larger elements.. Xenon's 3rd boss, etc etc.

Other more 'colourfull' games had to dither more.

 

i think on many TV's the 320 pixels wide tended to blur ordered dither together very well

 

BB games should be split into 2 really, Dan Malone games or Mark Coleman (totally different style)

 

I belive you because some of the games are very different. Xenon and Xenon II for exemple.

[Bryan]

Here's the ST version in 320x200

 

Not much dithering used to create new shades?

 

You've gone out of your way to pick the least dithered image.

 

 

even more in the next metalic level

I dunno, the red text on a white background looks pretty free of dither to me.

[DimensionX]

Here's the ST version in 320x200

 

Not much dithering used to create new shades?

 

You've gone out of your way to pick the least dithered image, this has dithering all over the place.. even for flat shades (cliff tops)

 

 

even more in the next metalic level

 

Have i?

 

Then check the whole game.

 

It's nothing even like on C64.

[PeteD]

 

It's nothing even like on C64.

 

Why do you keep bringing C64 into what you turned into a 16 bit argument? You can't judge the merits of dithering using the C64 palette against an amiga/st game.

[ceti331]

 

Have i?

 

Then check the whole game.

 

It's nothing even like on C64.

 

hehe yes that has the 3 least representative ingame screenshots, all very empty

 

try this:-

Edited May 8, 2010 by ceti331

[DimensionX]

Why don't check out the whole collection?

 

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[TMR]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

[DimensionX]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

 

That's what a big pallette can do for 16 on screen colours. And that was my point.

 

Now, imagine a C64 with a palette of 128 or 256 colours to choose from.

 

With the same abilitys as now.

 

But you can't have that...

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[Bryan]

I totally get the "shiny object" now.

[ceti331]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

 

That's what a big pallette can do for 16 on screen colours. And that was my point.

 

Now, imagine a C64 with a palette of 128 or 256 colours to choose from.

 

With the same abilitys as now.

 

I agree a larger palette would have enhanced what the C64 can do.

 

but it was very capable where it was.. it was a good compromise.

A large palette would have ment more onchip registers, more going on in its video hardware

 

Might sound a bit silly but as pete pointed out - Dan Malones' chaos-engine palette is very similar to taking the C64 palette and desaturating it. Maybe one could just do that with the TV

[PeteD]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

 

That's what a big pallette can do for 16 on screen colours. And that was my point.

 

Now, imagine a C64 with a palette of 128 or 256 colours to choose from.

 

With the same abilitys as now.

 

Problem is, it doesn't. Just as the Atari has limitations that you consistently ignore.

[DimensionX]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

 

That's what a big pallette can do for 16 on screen colours. And that was my point.

 

Now, imagine a C64 with a palette of 128 or 256 colours to choose from.

 

With the same abilitys as now.

 

I agree a larger palette would have enhanced what the C64 can do.

 

but it was very capable where it was.. it was a good compromise.

A large palette would have ment more onchip registers, more going on in its video hardware

 

Might sound a bit silly but as pete pointed out - Dan Malones' chaos-engine palette is very similar to taking the C64 palette and desaturating it. Maybe one could just do that with the TV

 

I was all Bitmap Brother games.

 

The sad thing is that you will have to choose because you can't have both. Either a big palette as A8, or a more flexible graphics engine. That's up to you what you prefer.

 

On 16 bit, both is possible.

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[TMR]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

 

That's what a big pallette can do for 16 on screen colours. And that was my point.

 

Yes, sixteen onscreen colours from a 512 colour palette - something that neither the C64 or A8 can manage. So not relevant in the slightest.

 

But whilst you're there, you might want to take a closer look at the Chaos Engine graphics because, along with the massive amounts of "unclean" dithering, did you notice the way it goes from what is essentially grey to a dark shade of brown just like C64 graphics artists do? The same thing you've previously slagged off the C64 for but here it's hypocritically allowed?

 

Now, imagine a C64 with a palette of 128 or 256 colours to choose from.

 

With the same abilitys as now.

 

There is one, in fact there are two. But again that's irrelevant.

[DimensionX]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

 

That's what a big pallette can do for 16 on screen colours. And that was my point.

 

Now, imagine a C64 with a palette of 128 or 256 colours to choose from.

 

With the same abilitys as now.

 

Problem is, it doesn't. Just as the Atari has limitations that you consistently ignore.

 

You didn't read my edit.

[DimensionX]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

 

That's what a big pallette can do for 16 on screen colours. And that was my point.

 

Yes, sixteen onscreen colours from a 512 colour palette - something that neither the C64 or A8 can manage. So not relevant in the slightest.

 

But whilst you're there, you might want to take a closer look at the Chaos Engine graphics because, along with the massive amounts of "unclean" dithering, did you notice the way it goes from what is essentially grey to a dark shade of brown just like C64 graphics artists do? The same thing you've previously slagged off the C64 for but here it's hypocritically allowed?

 

Now, imagine a C64 with a palette of 128 or 256 colours to choose from.

 

With the same abilitys as now.

 

There is one, in fact there are two. But again that's irrelevant.

 

In fact, you can compare C64 to Atari ST right here to see the difference.

 

Wait until it has finished loading. I linked to a certain comment.

http://gamlaspel.wordpress.com/gallerier/versus/comment-page-1/#comment-2157

It continues here

http://gamlaspel.wordpress.com/gallerier/versus/#comments

Edited May 8, 2010 by DimensionX

[TMR]

The sad thing is that you will have to choose because you can't have both. Either a big palette as A8, or a more flexible graphics engine. That's up to you what you prefer.

 

Nope, there are multiple machines with palettes as large as or better than the A8 and as many colours or more than the C64 in use simultaneously.

[DimensionX]

The sad thing is that you will have to choose because you can't have both. Either a big palette as A8, or a more flexible graphics engine. That's up to you what you prefer.

 

Nope, there are multiple machines with palettes as large as or better than the A8 and as many colours or more than the C64 in use simultaneously.

 

Like Master system for exemple?

 

Or NES?

 

Well, yes. But if you look at such old computers as Atari and C64 it will be hard.

 

BBC?

[TMR]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

 

That's what a big pallette can do for 16 on screen colours. And that was my point.

 

Yes, sixteen onscreen colours from a 512 colour palette - something that neither the C64 or A8 can manage. So not relevant in the slightest.

 

But whilst you're there, you might want to take a closer look at the Chaos Engine graphics because, along with the massive amounts of "unclean" dithering, did you notice the way it goes from what is essentially grey to a dark shade of brown just like C64 graphics artists do? The same thing you've previously slagged off the C64 for but here it's hypocritically allowed?

 

Now, imagine a C64 with a palette of 128 or 256 colours to choose from.

 

With the same abilitys as now.

 

There is one, in fact there are two. But again that's irrelevant.

 

In fact, you can compare C64 to Atari ST right here to see the difference.

 

And this is you missing the point and being irrelevant yet again.

[DimensionX]

Now, imagine a C64 with that graphics.

 

And we're still talking 16 on screen colours.

 

And the A8 can't do them either, so once more this is a totally moot point and absolutely irrelevant even to your latest tangent away from the actual thread topic.

 

That's what a big pallette can do for 16 on screen colours. And that was my point.

 

Yes, sixteen onscreen colours from a 512 colour palette - something that neither the C64 or A8 can manage. So not relevant in the slightest.

 

But whilst you're there, you might want to take a closer look at the Chaos Engine graphics because, along with the massive amounts of "unclean" dithering, did you notice the way it goes from what is essentially grey to a dark shade of brown just like C64 graphics artists do? The same thing you've previously slagged off the C64 for but here it's hypocritically allowed?

 

Now, imagine a C64 with a palette of 128 or 256 colours to choose from.

 

With the same abilitys as now.

 

There is one, in fact there are two. But again that's irrelevant.

 

In fact, you can compare C64 to Atari ST right here to see the difference.

 

And this is you missing the point and being irrelevant yet again.

 

Not if you read what i wrote in the blog. No competition of any kind. Just to see the difference between 8 and 16 bit. What differs? Well, take a look for yourself to find out.

 

And yes, i'm aware of that A8 can't do anything of that. But it's very good at certain things that most 8bit computers aren't. And that's why i like A8 so much.

[TMR]

Well, yes. But if you look at such old computers as Atari and C64 it will be hard.

 

And you didn't say they had to be old. There are 8-bits less than five years old, just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they cease to be. The Commodore 16 can display up to eighty colours a line from it's 121 colour palette at 320x200, the Amstrad CPC Plus has a 4,096 colour palette and there are the others we named previously.

[TMR]

Not if you read what i wrote in the blog.

 

Your blog is irrelevant to this discussion too.