Commodore 64 vs Atari 800 Xl

[DimensionX]

Some interesting reading. I didn't even knew that it was different versions of the C64 palette.

 

The same is true of a lot of 8-bits - as you noted previously, the A8 changes it's colours depending on if it's CTIA- or GTIA-based (going NTSC to PAL or vice versa changes the palette as well and that's the same for all the Commodore machines if memory serves) and the Spectrum varies from model to model to the point where a minority of machines even differentiate between black and bright black - Spectrum colours also change intensity slightly depending on if they're used for set or unset pixels apparently, there's a CSSCGC entry from 2008 called Escape from Niburon Prime where the on-screen maze relies on that differentiation, rendering it invisible to all but one emulator or a real machine.

 

I use both Spectaculator, ZXSpin and Specemu. Thanks for the link and some interesting info. I downloaded the zip file containing all crap games. Your Sinclair even held crap game competitions back in the good ol' speccy days with games such Lawnmover Simulator and Car Washing Sim.

 

One thing, you must have "ULA Colour Ramping" enabled in SpecEmu, else you will not see the maze in Specemu either.

Edited May 10, 2010 by DimensionX

[+wood_jl]

This was posted over in the A8 forum, but what a great Pokey conversion! Awesome sawtooth at 0:27.

 

 

Pokey's not so bad. Too bad no one figured out how to do that sooner.

 

Oh man, I didn't know Pokey could do that! Very impressive, indeed. Sounds kind of SID-like! Who'd have thought?

[note: not trying to equate Pokey to SID; just saying it sounds sid-LIKE]

[PeteD]

I think you're right about the green although I do like the way the limitations of things like that gave C64 graphics a style of their own, like using brown instead of a dark green which I suppose to some people looks like an abomination but to me it's nice because it's different.

 

I know exactly what you mean Pete, and it relates to the point raised earlier about reflected/ambient light and the way objects are affected by the colour of their surroundings.

 

Sticking to the same shades at differing luminance can make things a bit sterile sometimes.

 

For example, I actually prefer this:

 

 

 

 

 

...to this:

 

 

The second one still looks good, but to me it's a little sterile, not earthy enough. (Yeah, yeah, I know it's meant to be in the cold depths of space or something, but still!)

 

 

This is an end of level boss that STE'86 did on the C64 back when we were still coding demos. It and some other bits and pieces are in line for making an A8 (and maybe C64, while I'm at it, why not) shooter. It looks boring in 3 greens.

 

 

The ball thing in the middle opens up and there's a gun inside ready to spray alien death stuff

[NorthPole(heeHAW)]

Pete, i begin to get a bit groggy typing everything in english, spelling errors are becoming more and more common, i have to edit a posting about 5 times right now.

 

I'll better log out for today.

 

Ha en trevlig kväll.

 

bon débarras !

[PeteD]

Just for another interesting usage of the C64 palette I saw a while ago on Way of the Pixel..

 

HEXQUISITE CORPSE COLLAB

 

Not same res or colour per square limitations of course but it's nice to see the pixel artists continually rating it as a palette.

[+SpiceWare]

That's neat.

[Audiophile]

This was posted over in the A8 forum, but what a great Pokey conversion! Awesome sawtooth at 0:27.

 

 

Pokey's not so bad. Too bad no one figured out how to do that sooner.

 

Great! I enjoyed this very much, thanks for giving the link!

[TMR]

i'd just like to publicly mutter obscenities because that damned tune has been rattling around in my head all day when i'm supposed to be working.

 

Okay, done now. =-)

[potatohead]

i'd just like to publicly mutter obscenities because that damned tune has been rattling around in my head all day when i'm supposed to be working.

 

Okay, done now. =-)

 

Yeah, me too. I liked it. Bummer about the brick wall ending. Was there more, or what?

[TMR]

i'd just like to publicly mutter obscenities because that damned tune has been rattling around in my head all day when i'm supposed to be working.

 

Okay, done now. =-)

 

Yeah, me too. I liked it. Bummer about the brick wall ending. Was there more, or what?

 

i'd assume the tune goes on but the video cuts it short because the game starts...? The Wings of Death soundtrack is still an absolute classic on the 16-bit machines, if you haven't heard 'em already it's worth looking into - the game is pretty decent if a little Euroshmuppy too.

[Bryan]

Yeah, me too. I liked it. Bummer about the brick wall ending. Was there more, or what?

 

Miker posted the link to the SAP.

 

http://asma.atari.org/asma/Composers/Szpilowski_Michal/Wings_of_Death_Level_2.sap

[+remowilliams]

The Wings of Death soundtrack is still an absolute classic on the 16-bit machines, if you haven't heard 'em already it's worth looking into

 

Definitely. The Atari 16bit version even has a kickass soundtrack now thanks to D-Bug. Well, at least if you have a Falcon to play it on...

[oky2000]

Okey, so i will report all postings that are made just to annoy?

 

Oooh, it's going be many. I will start with northpoles posting.

How about you stick to the subject at hand. If you start reporting posts, they will be the LAST posts you report. I don't want to see any more of this stupidity, get back on topic NOW.

 

..Al

 

I thought the previous thread on this subject was locked for a very good reason anyway?

[oky2000]

It's NOT my opinion. Take a look at all screenshots i have posted. Even ONE of them would be impossible to do with C64's limited palette.

Then i don't care if you like rainbows or not.

 

I suggest anyone critical of the Commodore 64 compare the Atari8 version of Gauntlet with the C64 version. I remember that was one of your screenshots; it's one that I would not have included if I was trying to make a good point about the Atari8.

 

The C64 Gauntlet is pretty cool, considering it's an old 8-bit. I don't know if the Atari8 could have done better, but I suspect it could have.

 

Once again, I'm primarily and Atari8 man myself, just trying to be fair.

 

Damn where is Rockford for screenshot balance in the thread! lol

 

If the A8 has the same sort of multicolour char mode of 4 colors per character block (ie every 4x8 pixels in 160x200 resolution screen) like the C64 then yes it could have looked identical to the C64 version, if it doesn't have that same type of screen layout you will be hard pressed to replicate the C64 version in it's current form.

 

I remember distinctly saying that instead of arguing or converting VIC20 games, Gauntlet A8 is the one game that is absolutely crying out to be re-written with proper colours. After all it IS an Atari arcade game with Pokey chips on the motherboard you know

 

(I'm not saying either way, because I am not an A8 programmer, so I'll leave that to be discussed between the rest of you. However it is quite an impressive piece of coding if you remember it is not using sprites anyway given the 1mhz CPU....like Berzerk on steriods ha!)

[oky2000]

 

@Bryan

 

This is how A8 should have sounded

 

 

 

That's a really nice PC 8 Channel MOD there, dunno why you think that's an A8 or Pokey tune.

 

It's from a crack of Worms II in the 90s apparently (didn't waste 1000s on PCs to play the same games as Amiga 500s managed lol so not 100% sure).

 

edit: The song in question is Hybrid Song by Sanxion of Quazar if anyone wants it. Also on a demo called Funky Stars too.

Edited May 11, 2010 by oky2000

[Bryan]

After all it IS an Atari arcade game with Pokey chips on the motherboard you know

 

Plus a YM2151 and a TMS5220.

[oky2000]

After all it IS an Atari arcade game with Pokey chips on the motherboard you know

 

Plus a YM2151 and a TMS5220.

 

And the sprites have a separate palette too, pretty decent design It's a shame Atari split into arcade/home computers really, that sort of technology in R&D would have been very useful to Atari in the mid 80s.

[+SpiceWare]

I thought the previous thread on this subject was locked for a very good reason anyway?

The previous thread wasn't in a programming forum. Programmers tend to be impressed at the technical achievements in overcoming the limitations (such as increasing Pokey sound quality by updating frequency registers more often than normal) while non-programmers tend to stay away from technical discussions.

[Bryan]

The previous thread wasn't in a programming forum. Programmers tend to be impressed at the technical achievements in overcoming the limitations (such as increasing Pokey sound quality by updating frequency registers more often than normal) while non-programmers tend to stay away from technical discussions.

I remember the first time I looked at programming the 2600. I couldn't believe anyone ever produced anything on it-- especially with the limitations of assemblers and test platforms in the '70s. I've written a few little test programs on it, but I totally respect anyone who produces a working game for it.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Bryan

[GroovyBee]

And the sprites have a separate palette too, pretty decent design It's a shame Atari split into arcade/home computers really, that sort of technology in R&D would have been very useful to Atari in the mid 80s.

 

It was put in the 7800 instead I reckon the 7800 could do a pretty mean version of Gauntlet.

[potatohead]

I thought the previous thread on this subject was locked for a very good reason anyway?

The previous thread wasn't in a programming forum. Programmers tend to be impressed at the technical achievements in overcoming the limitations (such as increasing Pokey sound quality by updating frequency registers more often than normal) while non-programmers tend to stay away from technical discussions.

 

Exactly!! That's where all the fun is, when comparing the old machines.

 

Re: 7800, hell yes! From what I've seen starting to happen Groovybee, that system has a lot of potential not yet exploited

[potatohead]

The previous thread wasn't in a programming forum. Programmers tend to be impressed at the technical achievements in overcoming the limitations (such as increasing Pokey sound quality by updating frequency registers more often than normal) while non-programmers tend to stay away from technical discussions.

I remember the first time I looked at programming the 2600. I couldn't believe anyone ever produced anything on it-- especially with the limitations of assemblers and test platforms in the '70s. I've written a few little test programs on it, but I totally respect anyone who produces a working game for it.

 

Yes, indeed! It's flat out amazing that it does anything at all! This makes me very seriously appreciate Batari Basic too. That actually takes the VCS from being one of the most difficult to program for, right down to flat out easy and fun, if limited. I've knocked out a few things with that tool, and just had fun. Damn cool!

 

I would love to see that kind of work applied to more capable machines.

[Bryan]

Yes, indeed! It's flat out amazing that it does anything at all! This makes me very seriously appreciate Batari Basic too. That actually takes the VCS from being one of the most difficult to program for, right down to flat out easy and fun, if limited. I've knocked out a few things with that tool, and just had fun. Damn cool!

I think the best feature of the 2600 is how it was engineered from a purely gaming standpoint from a company that was used to pushing the limits of digital circuits. Game consoles of the era were typically designed to be stripped down cost-reduced versions of normal computing terminal hardware and the 2600 was a totally new approach.

 

I would love to see that kind of work applied to more capable machines.

 

It would certainly be a fun project.

[PeteD]

The previous thread wasn't in a programming forum. Programmers tend to be impressed at the technical achievements in overcoming the limitations (such as increasing Pokey sound quality by updating frequency registers more often than normal) while non-programmers tend to stay away from technical discussions.

I remember the first time I looked at programming the 2600. I couldn't believe anyone ever produced anything on it-- especially with the limitations of assemblers and test platforms in the '70s. I've written a few little test programs on it, but I totally respect anyone who produces a working game for it.

 

I wrote a (mostly working) 2600 emu for GBA a good few years ago and it's doing something like that that'll make you realise just what was possible on it and some of the tricks coders were using to do things. I'd write something that I thought was a "good enough" display system only to have it destroyed by the next game I tested, rewrite, destroy, etc

[Bryan]

I wrote a (mostly working) 2600 emu for GBA a good few years ago and it's doing something like that that'll make you realise just what was possible on it and some of the tricks coders were using to do things. I'd write something that I thought was a "good enough" display system only to have it destroyed by the next game I tested, rewrite, destroy, etc

 

A buddy and I wrote a 2600 emulator for the Jaguar that we tried to sell to Atari, and at one point we were negotiating an advance with a lot of zero's in it...right before they canceled all Jag projects. I worked a long time on a fast 6502 emulator that would fit in Tom's internal memory and would use LUT's to eliminate anything that couldn't be done in a few cycles. We also came up with a way to arrange the cartridge data in DRAM that would keep the emulator off the (slow) main bus as much as possible.

 

But yeah, you can't assume anything, and your emulator must always know what the cycle count is. For 100% support you have you have to know a lot of undocumented behavior about unused register bits and such.

 

Anyway, I think Carl Forhan has released the emulator demo since we sold him all our stuff.