What Games On Other Systems Show The Jaguar's Power?

[kool kitty89]

I wonder if Chillw Willy has considered any colaberation for a music engine for his homebrew projects, he's planning on Doom next -he's already working on the Wolf3D music on his own I believe

What do you mean? What is he doing with Doom?

 

Chilly Willy said Wolf32x is really his learning experience for working with the 32x, he's said his next project will probably be a proper port of Doom (the shareware version, like Wolf32x to avoid legal issues), and he's expressed that it will not be based on the Jag Doom sourcecode, but rather a newer one (his wolf 32x code is based on a PSP port I beleive he also worked on). After that he's got a variety of things he's expressed intrest in like Duke Nukem 3D (he said he considdered Quake, but thought that the 32x really wasn't up to it), a Sonic game (in a recent discussion he expressed the possibility of a kart style racing game), and possibly a Wolf3D port for the Sega CD, though this one will probably be pretty far off. (It'll take a lot of work to get the most out of the limited hardware, make proper used of the scaling capabilities of the ASIC, and particularly, make use of the limited color palette of the CD -as the original was 256 color VGA and dropping down to 16-color EGA graphics would look awful -so proper use of the Genesis's 4x 16-color palettes is important)

[philipj]

Gorf quote:

What was NOT brilliant was the execution, follow-up and developer/retailer

support. This was not only during the Jaguar timeline but well before when

the Tramiels were notoriuos for not supporting retailers and forgetting to pay

developers on time if at all. Tools are a laughing stock in the VG industry

only second to Sony's PS3 tool(they get 1st place because they should have

learned from the Jag toolset on this one.)

 

The difference between the PS3 and the Jag is that there's enough stuff about the PS3 that'll keep the programmers busy for sometime... That nine core processor is a big temptation untapped for both the scientific and entertainment industry so the hardware isn't going anywhere any time soon. It's just a matter of time before Sony go down on the price and when that happens, you'll start seeing a lot of model 2 PS2 systems at the fleamarket.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnCZl6NNUBc

Edited May 19, 2009 by philipj

[sd32]

I wonder if Chillw Willy has considered any colaberation for a music engine for his homebrew projects, he's planning on Doom next -he's already working on the Wolf3D music on his own I believe

What do you mean? What is he doing with Doom?

 

Chilly Willy said Wolf32x is really his learning experience for working with the 32x, he's said his next project will probably be a proper port of Doom (the shareware version, like Wolf32x to avoid legal issues), and he's expressed that it will not be based on the Jag Doom sourcecode, but rather a newer one (his wolf 32x code is based on a PSP port I beleive he also worked on). After that he's got a variety of things he's expressed intrest in like Duke Nukem 3D (he said he considdered Quake, but thought that the 32x really wasn't up to it), a Sonic game (in a recent discussion he expressed the possibility of a kart style racing game), and possibly a Wolf3D port for the Sega CD, though this one will probably be pretty far off. (It'll take a lot of work to get the most out of the limited hardware, make proper used of the scaling capabilities of the ASIC, and particularly, make use of the limited color palette of the CD -as the original was 256 color VGA and dropping down to 16-color EGA graphics would look awful -so proper use of the Genesis's 4x 16-color palettes is important)

 

Wow, all those projects from Chilly Willy sound amazing and really interesting. I will definitely keep ane ar on all of the. Thanks for the heads up kool kitty89!

[Gorf]

Is'nt there a 32 X forum to discuss these 32x games at? After all this is a JAGUAR forum.

Just thought I'd point tht out.

[+LS650]

Yeah, I gotta say I don't hang out in any Sega forums to talk about Atari games!

[kool kitty89]

Is'nt there a 32 X forum to discuss these 32x games at? After all this is a JAGUAR forum.

Just thought I'd point tht out.

 

Sorry, if anyone else is interested, just look here instead of getting off topic again: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6690

[carmel_andrews]

Interesting that the main focus here is on wanting to increase the capabilities of the jaguar

 

What we must remember is Atari were working on the Jaggie for over 2 years, surely if they wanted it to have dreamcast/saturn or PSx/PS1 beating capability they would have built that into the system from day one

 

And you must remember that atari's base or target RRP (Reccommendend retail price) for the jaguar was to have been less then 200-150 USD (or straight 1 GBP=1USD conversion) from what i remember, remembering ofcourse that both the ps1/saturn and also the dreamcast were nearly 300 USD/300 USD plus when they were first released

 

So you got what you essentially paid for

 

We should be grateful that we got any system at all, anyway even if they did put competition beating capability into the system, the other issue would have been getting games software support and going by the way atari did the lynx, clearly the jaguar would never have stood a chance (obviously atari never aggressively saught third party game software support like the sega/nintendo and sony crowd did)

[carmel_andrews]

Oops, srry, please move above post to the ...it's 1993 thread ...in the jaguar forum (christ it must be early)

[ovalbugmann]

Is'nt there a 32 X forum to discuss these 32x games at? After all this is a JAGUAR forum.

Just thought I'd point tht out.

 

 

Yeah, I gotta say I don't hang out in any Sega forums to talk about Atari games!

 

GWAD!! I'm glad other people noticed this all extensive other systems talk that mainly kk'89 seems to be doing here and in other Jaguar threads. I don't care about other systems and skip right over all that other shit - no interest to me. I'm sure the Sega CD & 32x & Saturn are great but I prefer the JaguarCD.

 

BTW: Dreamcast is best and most powerful Sega system.

[ovalbugmann]

What we must remember is Atari were working on the Jaggie for over 2 years, surely if they wanted it to have dreamcast/saturn or PSx/PS1 beating capability they would have built that into the system from day one

 

You must be still sleepy because none of those consoles you mention existed when the Jag was released in November of 1993 or even the 1994 wide release. Jag was the most powerful console available at that point in time. So, it was quite advanced for it's time and it was an "other system beater."

[kool kitty89]

Again, sorry, I end up doign the same thing over at Sega-16 with Atari (in particular), and a some others. (though noone's complained yet , then again, a lot of that's in their "Insert Coin" section -general, non-sega specific, gaming discussion forum)

[mcjakeqcool]

The Jag would be more commercialy sucsessful if it was 32 bit. And if it was marketed better.

[viMaster]

The Jag would be more commercialy sucsessful if it was 32 bit. And if it was marketed better.

It was a lot of reasons. I don't think Atari claiming it to be a "32-bit" system would have made a difference. It also would have been asinine -- it's a 64-bit architecture. Why would you market it as 32-bit when it's clearly 64-bit? Or maybe you're talking about scaling down the architecture itself to be a 32-bit one. But if that was the case, don't you think the games would have looked even worse? Granted, many are 16-bit ports anyway, but those that are above that probably would have been worse had they created a 32-bit architecture. Just my guess.

 

It was the money problems, software problems, coding tool problems, marketing problems, etc, etc.

[Gorf]

The Jag would be more commercialy sucsessful if it was 32 bit. And if it was marketed better.

 

First half wrong, second half correct. This useless obsession with trying to make the Jag a 32 bit system

is just idiotic. It's bitness had nothing to do with how the games turned out. Tools and laziness on both

the part of the Tramiels and the devolpers is why you saw the lack luster quality of games. You clearly

forget the games the other systems could not do and if they did it never was near as well as on the Jag.

 

CD-I, 32X were not capable of games Like Iron Soldier, BattleSphere, Tempest 2000, Hoverstrike, Zero5,

Doom, Wolf 3D, Skyhammer, Phase Zero or even MC3D. They would not do well with the games Im working

on either. 3DO was but at half the bus speed, half the clock rate and more than 3 times the price and not nearly

as good or as colorful.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Gorf

[Gorf]

The Jag would be more commercialy sucsessful if it was 32 bit. And if it was marketed better.

It was a lot of reasons. I don't think Atari claiming it to be a "32-bit" system would have made a difference. It also would have been asinine -- it's a 64-bit architecture. Why would you market it as 32-bit when it's clearly 64-bit? Or maybe you're talking about scaling down the architecture itself to be a 32-bit one. But if that was the case, don't you think the games would have looked even worse? Granted, many are 16-bit ports anyway, but those that are above that probably would have been worse had they created a 32-bit architecture. Just my guess.

 

It was the money problems, software problems, coding tool problems, marketing problems, etc, etc.

 

 

Even if the Jag was a true 1024 bit system and you only ported 16 bit games to it, yes it would look

real bad and yes like a lie, but it would not change the fact that it has the 1024 bit bus. What does a

guy have to do? Sheesh!

[kool kitty89]

CD-I, 32X were not capable of games Like Iron Soldier, BattleSphere, Tempest 2000, Hoverstrike, Zero5,

Doom, Wolf 3D, Skyhammer, Phase Zero or even MC3D. They would not do well with the games Im working

on either. 3DO was but at half the bus speed, half the clock rate and more than 3 times the price and not nearly

as good or as colorful.

 

I wouldn't be too sure on the 32x, sure it's got a lot of limitations (notably RAM, shared 16-bit SH-2 data bus, and simplistic VDP, and limited audio hardware), but when pushed it could do a lot of that stuff, games like Shadow Squadron (flat shaded), Metal Head (fully textured, fairly short draw didtance), and DarXide (fully textured, some slowdown, very rare EU only release), and they probably didn't have the same kind logic and AI going on as something like BS though. (and Metal Head wasn't nearly as open as Iron Soldier, IS2 particularly)

 

Still, I wouldn't lump it in with the CDI, even the Sega CD had advantages over that. (granted neither could do the games you lised, except maybe a modified Wolf 3D on the CD -it did do wing commander after all)

 

I totally agree on the 32-bit marketing thing, that's just idiotic, and actually switching to a 32-bit archetecture is completely unnecesary. (there would be no advantage really, I don't even think cost, or development time by much, assuming everyting was still custom chips)

Anyone whole thinks the "Jag doen't look 64-bit, it's 32-bit at best" doesn't understand the reason for the "bitness" or the limitations imposed on the Jag. Hell, even the N64 isn't lagitimately 64-bit (if you go by the CPU, which is a major argument on the Jag, the N64;s CPU is as 64-bit as the Sega Genesis is 32-bit... -which the 68k techinically is; though the GPU in the N64 is certainly 64-bit -though the whole system bus in the N64 is a bit odd, as are the blitter and OP in the Jag -and the GPU is 32-bit but with access to the 64-bit bus bandwidth)

Hell, CPU wise (internally), the Dreamcast, Xbox, GameCube/Wii, 360, and maybe the PS3 (not sure about the cores of the cell processor) are all 32-bit, despite the Dreamcast and (64-bit) PS2 being claimed as "128-bit" (of course marketing bitness of a "system" is inconsistant with no standard of what part of the machine has the difinitive "bitness")

The CX-2600's CPU was 8-bit (a cut-down version of what the NES/A8-bit/5200/7800 had), but that's clearly not in the same generation as the NES/7800. And something many don't realize is that the GPU (VDP, PPU, etc) and the rest of the system has a much bigger impact than the CPU alone. (the 6507 wasn't all that much slower than a 6502, though address space was limited, but the TIA was a huge factor for making the VCS what it is)

 

 

The thing that hurt the Jag was all the last-gen ports it got, due to lazy programming, and lack of development tools.

Edited May 21, 2009 by kool kitty89

[mcjakeqcool]

Altough it is not quite up to the standard of say the 32x and Jaguar port, the 3do port of Doom is far superior over the SNES port.

[Gorf]

I wouldn't be too sure on the 32x, sure it's got a lot of limitations (notably RAM, shared 16-bit SH-2 data bus, and simplistic VDP, and limited audio hardware), but when pushed it could do a lot of that stuff, games like Shadow Squadron (flat shaded), Metal Head (fully textured, fairly short draw didtance), and DarXide (fully textured, some slowdown, very rare EU only release), and they probably didn't have the same kind logic and AI going on as something like BS though. (and Metal Head wasn't nearly as open as Iron Soldier, IS2 particularly)

Still, I wouldn't lump it in with the CDI, even the Sega CD had advantages over that. (granted neither could do the games you lised, except maybe a modified Wolf 3D on the CD -it did do wing commander after all)

 

I only lumped it in because someone else did. The Jaguar is much superior to the 32x. BattleSphere is one thing you will never

see on a 32x. Keep in mind that was the best the Jaguar has been pushed so far..... it's got more room to go yet.

 

 

I totally agree on the 32-bit marketing thing, that's just idiotic, and actually switching to a 32-bit archetecture is completely unnecesary. (there would be no advantage really, I don't even think cost, or development time by much, assuming everyting was still custom chips)

 

If you are going to lie about it's capabilities as all game companies do, why lie in a negative way? Makes little sense if any at all.

 

Anyone whole thinks the "Jag doen't look 64-bit, it's 32-bit at best" doesn't understand the reason for the "bitness" or the limitations imposed on the Jag.

 

Only those not paying attention know that you willnever draw graphics on any sysetm like you would on Jaguar. NOw Trevor

Mcfur is a joke in the gameplay department. But clearly not one system out ther would eer be able to generate 24bit colors

at 60 FPS as TM did.

 

First no system before Jag had more tha 4096 colors on screen.

None had a bus wider than 16 bits.

The highest clock was 8 mhz.

 

 

Hell, even the N64 isn't lagitimately 64-bit (if you go by the CPU, which is a major argument on the Jag, the N64;s CPU is as 64-bit as the

Sega Genesis is 32-bit... -which the 68k techinically is; though the GPU in the N64 is certainly 64-bit -though the whole system bus in the N64 is a bit odd, as are the blitter and OP in the Jag -and the GPU is 32-bit but with access to the 64-bit bus bandwidth)

 

This is as hypocritical as the VG media has ever shown itself to be. It also shows that most VG mags are clueless about hardware

to begin with. Give a guy a magazine and a joystick and he thinks he is an expert at silicon. The only thing 64 bit about the N64 is

its internal 64 bit ALU's which quite frankly are not even necessary unlessyou want to be ridiculous accurate(where the resolutions

even at their highest, wont show any difference anyway), where the Jaguar has 64 bit bus externally. I'll take the external bus any

day along side the 64 bit graphics processors....except with an 020 or another J-RISC instead of the 68k.

 

The thing that hurt the Jag was all the last-gen ports it got, due to lazy programming, and lack of development tools.

 

Those might have been fine if they true color updated the graphics.

[Gorf]

Altough it is not quite up to the standard of say the 32x and Jaguar port, the 3do port of Doom is far superior over the SNES port.

 

 

Every port is far superior to the lamo sensored SNES version. The 32X version is a joke too.

3D0 and 32X are half sized windows and a horid frame rate.

 

Jaguar has a fullscreen and much better frame rate and is clearly superior in color depth and

lighting effects. The lack of music is probably the only real issue if an issue at all. The game

will run with music turned on but at a slower frame rate (one of the Jaguar coders recompiled

JagDoom and enabled the music... I think it might have been Belboz...or Matthias or one of them.)

 

I for one was plenty sick of the PC doom music long before teh Jag version came out so no loss

to me.

[mcjakeqcool]

The SNES port of Doom is the worst port of Doom, no suprize there. Acutely, that's not stictly true, the 2600 version was worse.

[dreamcastrip]

Whilst obviously not in the same class but when judged in terms of maximising the relative hardware potential the unreleased Sinclair ZX Spectrum 128k versions of

and Wolfenstein 3D totally rock.

[Gorf]

Whilst obviously not in the same class but when judged in terms of maximising the relative hardware potential the unreleased Sinclair ZX Spectrum 128k versions of

and Wolfenstein 3D totally rock.

 

 

But now you are talking life long guru's honing their miraculous skill squeezing every last heart beat

from those systems. That is higher power computing right there. Battlesphere is probably the closest the

Jag has ever come to that. Scatologic were in a league of their own in the Jaguar world. I think Eclipse

was definitely on their way.

[GOTHCLAWZ]

Doom on the 32x

Jaguar Doom was so good it was ported to the GBA, nearly 10 years later.

 

DOOM ON THE 32X & GBA!?!?

 

Fuck me, I'm going shopping!

[dreamcastrip]

Whilst obviously not in the same class but when judged in terms of maximising the relative hardware potential the unreleased Sinclair ZX Spectrum 128k versions of

and Wolfenstein 3D totally rock.

 

 

But now you are talking life long guru's honing their miraculous skill squeezing every last heart beat

from those systems. That is higher power computing right there. Battlesphere is probably the closest the

Jag has ever come to that. Scatologic were in a league of their own in the Jaguar world. I think Eclipse

was definitely on their way.

That's telling it damn straight, buddy.

I've not yet been fortuitous enough to play or even witness Battlesphere in person so can only ever comment on what I've read and seen of it via Youtube but I do appreciate where you're coming from. As a former Speccy owner from back in the day watching those vids of Doom and Wolf3D near make my eyes bleed such is their phenomenal achievement.

[mcjakeqcool]

Need to get hold of the ZX Spectrum version of Doom, just seen a video on youtube and the music is awsome. Here's the link

.