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To dump or not to dump?


Jess Ragan

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WickeyCOlumbus: If the item dies and you've already got it saved, you can reburn the EPROMS so the proto essentially never dies.

 

There's a few things about "releases" that proto collectors don't want to deal with. It's actually a lot of labor finding donor carts, PCBs, getting manuals, boxes together, etc.

 

If people want to play my stuff, I'll get them setup for someone ELSE to make releases, but like with the "internet", some people expect the game(s) to be available for free and such and can't understand why they would have to pay a few thousand dollars to someone to get the "rights" to the cart that is not even their own work and profit from such.

 

Atari 2600 collectors have been doing this for quite some time, and no one said anything, but when I wanted money for a ROM for NES stuff, people were tearing into me. I'm definitely a little bit jaded from people's hypocrisy about the whole thing, so my deal is if you want games, I have them available, but I want money for them. I don't have time to go through the things in and out and try and get releases together.

 

I don't collect just "unreleased" protos, I collect cart protos in general. WHy do people collect anything? We can't take it with us, it's just what I like to collect. It makes my collection stand out that I've got 1,100 cart protos +. ANyone can collect normal released games, but it takes a lot more effort to collect cart protos in my opinion, even though I have been lazy with them for awhile in research.

 

If the collector is in it for the money, so what? People act like that's a bad thing. We live in the US people. Some more than other are all about capitalism any way they can get it. I'm not as bad as some people, but I'm not going to give my stuff to someone for the "love of the community" and watch them profit from it because people "say" they just want to play said game, but people really DON'T care once the game is released and available on web. Interest wanes almost immediately, and the whole ROM thing is forgotten and people want to move on to the next one.

 

It's supply and demand. If I had to pay $1000-2000 to get something, and spend my time trying to GET it, I'm going to at least want that back.

 

and about all these "why would you invest in so and so", invest in "XXX" instead.

 

Please. If I listened to people, I'd be in the poorhouse right now. Mortgage investments, Wall Street, stocks, you name it. EVERYONE took a hit and I just stuck to what I knew. I'm not "trying" to have a nest egg with these items, but I know I'm making more money with video game stuff than any Money Market Fund or CDs for 5-10 years that I know of. My grandfather lost almost his entire life savings in mortgage investments and told me I was wasting my money on video games....you can just imagine my RELIEF now that I did NOT listen to him.

Edited by DreamTR
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RetroFreak, you're using the wrong word here.

 

People always use "selfishness" as the key word here. If the game is ALREADY DUMPED and the collector DOES NOT release it, then it's not selfish....that's not a big deal, but a lot of people assume that the owner just chooses not to save it PERIOD, and I'm a bit sick of those assumptions.......the value goes down, and money is money. If you think that's being greedy, then you should really look up the definition of being a philanthropist here, because some people are not in the business of giving away stuff for free to those that don't at least DONATE to the cause. I've lost enough money on some of these and people still call me selfish.

 

 

 

 

 

I guess you have been in said situation before, but i think you're missing my little point. Yes there ARE collectors that are not selfish and are willing to dump ROMS. I'd never call a collector selfish that owns an original proto which was ALREADY DUMPED, they can keep the carts. But me, i specifically meant SERIOUS collectors that is hanging on to a game that they KNOW is not dumped yet. Those are the collectors that are not willing to dump an UNDUMPED game to protect their own interest and their proto's value. Of course they wouldn't think much about bitrot. As long as the value of their proto stays up, the chances of it being dumped remains DOWN. Perhaps you're one of them? No offence, but that is how i see it in my eyes. If i spotted another forum member that has an undumped proto of a newly undiscovered title, and had some spare money in my account, i wouldn't hesitate for some donation, or perhaps a repro!

 

 

I don't really accuse of collectors being selfish, but if they have an UNDUMPED proto in the first place and wouldn't dump it, i'm sorry but it LOOKS selfish to me. Ohwell, maybe i am looking at it in the wrong prospestive, i guess some take it in any way to protect their own finances, their bills, their family, food and and their own children's future. If i was to dump a game, i would desire some donations, not that they have to do it or anything, but i would desire it. If i knew the process on to how to make repros for an undumped title, i'd use that to recoup my lost investment. But like i said, i put game preservation first, THEN worry anbout your investment I'm apologise if i worded it wrong in my previous post. ;)

 

At the end of the day, you need to reread my post to understand what i meant at firsthand. ;)

Edited by <Retro-Freak>
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I don't really accuse of collectors being selfish, but if they have an UNDUMPED proto in the first place and wouldn't dump it, i'm sorry but it LOOKS selfish to me. Ohwell, maybe i am looking at it in the wrong prospestive, i guess some take it in any way to protect their own finances, their bills, their family, food and and their own children's future. If i was to dump a game, i would desire some donations, not that they have to do it or anything, but i would desire it. If i knew the process on to how to make repros for an undumped title, i'd use that to recoup my lost investment. But like i said, i put game preservation first, THEN worry anbout your investment I'm apologise if i worded it wrong in my previous post.
Well spoken.

 

Releasing a dump to the whole community is another thing, but at least making a copy of a unique prototype to secure its existence is IMO a must.

 

8)

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To Retrofreak: Talk is cheap, if you're so gung-ho about preservation then go out, buy an unreleased undumped game, and release it to the community. Or better yet, just buy my repros and I'll actually release games to the community rather than just promise what I would do if I had an unreleased game fall in my lap. I have at bare minimum 2 more undumped/unreleased games that will be repro'd and sold in the near future, what games do you plan on releasing?

 

All my protos, public or otherwise, have been backed up. If they do bit rot, I'll just erase and reprogram the chips.

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Every game worth playing WILL be dumped by someone. Someone will find a way to buy it and make money off of it while releasing the ROM at the same time. It may take some time but as the pool shrinks it will become more desirable to do this.

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Every game worth playing WILL be dumped by someone. Someone will find a way to buy it and make money off of it while releasing the ROM at the same time. It may take some time but as the pool shrinks it will become more desirable to do this.

 

As far as stuff already in the collector community, yep, I agree with this. I haven't struck a deal with DreamTR in a long time because I already pretty much cleaned out all the NES stuff I'm interested in.

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To Retrofreak: Talk is cheap, if you're so gung-ho about preservation then go out, buy an unreleased undumped game, and release it to the community. Or better yet, just buy my repros and I'll actually release games to the community rather than just promise what I would do if I had an unreleased game fall in my lap. I have at bare minimum 2 more undumped/unreleased games that will be repro'd and sold in the near future, what games do you plan on releasing?

 

All my protos, public or otherwise, have been backed up. If they do bit rot, I'll just erase and reprogram the chips.

 

 

Talk may be cheap, but it can say something if its valid. Now on to the subject. I definitely would buy any available repros or protos if i had the money laying around, but thus far, i'm going 17 next month, no job (or part-time either), still earning not even near enough to get protos at the prices they are going for (specially when purchasing something overseas). Second, i don't have a 2600 nor the NES yet so i couldn't get them anyway. :P

 

My point on the matter was only in response to to DreamTR, saying people are calling him selfish for refusing to dump ROMs or something. I said it looked selfish in a way, but never said it is outright selfish. But like i said, i guess its personal matters if they are reluctant to dump it. Anyways, If i had an undumped proto fall into my lap, i'd make a ROM image of it, several at that just in case 1 becomes corrupt for some reason, if i had a ROM dumping device in the first place. Even if i myself released the ROM before selling repros, i'm sure there are those that are interested in buying physical copies, not sure though. But you don't have to, it's your ROM.

 

Now, i never mentioned that i have an undumped proto, in fact i made a thread about another game i have that i suspect is very rare, called Axis for the Archimedes. Unfortunately i don't think much really bothered. What do you think? http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=144510

 

:ponder:

Edited by <Retro-Freak>
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Talk is still cheap man, I understand your age and financial situation, but until you have something that others will pay thousands for, then purposely turn it into something people will pay hundreds for (whether it benefits a community of individuals who you will likely never meet and will probably be ungrateful if you change something as small as a piece of legal data), talk is just talk.

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Talk is still cheap man, I understand your age and financial situation, but until you have something that others will pay thousands for, then purposely turn it into something people will pay hundreds for (whether it benefits a community of individuals who you will likely never meet and will probably be ungrateful if you change something as small as a piece of legal data), talk is just talk.

 

 

To be honest MrMark, i'm speaking in a more theretical language here. Nothing personal, not boasting or anything or even making up stuff for the sake of being "something", but i'm only speaking what i would do in theory if i was in said situation. I know its just all talk and me speaking like "i say it all and not deliver" kind of language to you, but thats just my own honest opinion, and i know all the precautions to be aware of that you brought up. Do you know anyone that was ungrateful to you? Anyways, i personally think its unlikely i will ever own a priceless proto when i really think about it in layman's term, so i don't even have to worry about all that anyway. TBH, i'm not too sure how this little debate flourished. But aside all that, repros are more likely for me anyway, in fact i do have enough to even BUY one, but that will kill me financially.

 

That link i showed you? i wasn't ever planning on selling that, i just want to make backups and maybe even leak it online for preservation rights.

Edited by <Retro-Freak>
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Looks like this question is never going to be totally resolved

 

here's an idea

 

have 2 versions of the dumped rom, on for the original hardware (be it nes/atari/sega etc) and 1 emulator version

 

on each version you have an additional patched program, which will look for unique identifiers for the hardware you are running (like on a pc or mac it might be the product/activation key or you IP address, or if it's on original hardware to look for version no's/serial nnumbers etc held in the bios...asuuming ofcourse that these numbers would be different for every nes/atari/sega machine released) the reason being is that you will only be able to run that cart or that rom image on that machine (or multiple machines if you bought additional machines usages, i.e using the same program on other machines) the idea been that you will only be able to use that game or rom image on that machine therefore limiting the possibility of people reproducing dumped versions of that program, because they will only able to using it on that or those machines

 

At least that way not only will people not be able to sell their copy, you will be able to control how many copies of the rom are out there

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Looks like this question is never going to be totally resolved

 

here's an idea

 

have 2 versions of the dumped rom, on for the original hardware (be it nes/atari/sega etc) and 1 emulator version

 

on each version you have an additional patched program, which will look for unique identifiers for the hardware you are running (like on a pc or mac it might be the product/activation key or you IP address, or if it's on original hardware to look for version no's/serial nnumbers etc held in the bios...asuuming ofcourse that these numbers would be different for every nes/atari/sega machine released) the reason being is that you will only be able to run that cart or that rom image on that machine (or multiple machines if you bought additional machines usages, i.e using the same program on other machines) the idea been that you will only be able to use that game or rom image on that machine therefore limiting the possibility of people reproducing dumped versions of that program, because they will only able to using it on that or those machines

 

At least that way not only will people not be able to sell their copy, you will be able to control how many copies of the rom are out there

 

Someone would dump the cart. Then both versions would be on the net.

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RetroFreak: Speaking in terms of "theory" means your argument can't be validated. No one wants to give away something for free. It's great that there are armchair collectors who always SAY they would do this and talk about other people's stuff, but they would never pay $XXXXX for any game by themselves, dump it for free, and just LOSE money on something that will be forgotten quick.

 

No one plays these games much after the first few days. The hype is gone and people forget.

 

I'm sure some smart Mega Drive collector is going to come after my stuff one day (one already has and a game will be released this year I think from one of my collection games) and do well with these games, but I have a significant amount of undumped Mega Drive and SNES stuff, and a small handful of NES to have access to.

 

Street Hero, War on Wheels and 2 to 3 others that are translations, but I have a good amount of NTSC unreleased stuff from PAL format, but a lot of people want the "big" unreleased in all countries part which can be rough to obtain and is a whole other genre.

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WickeyCOlumbus: If the item dies and you've already got it saved, you can reburn the EPROMS so the proto essentially never dies.

 

I have a significant amount of undumped Mega Drive and SNES stuff, and a small handful of NES to have access to.

 

I don't understand, if they are undumped, how will you reburn them :?

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I simply collect because I love the physical sight of the proto carts. I know the value of protos have gone down but I am happy just to see the carts like looking at baseball cards or stamps. I dump my games so if one or a few of my protos goes down due to bit rot, I can always reload the ROM onto the EPROM; no harm, no foul!!! :)

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I can't speak from experience on pricing. However, the Phaser Patrol prototype I have is madly addicting. Dunno what exactly is different, but it doesn't feel quite the same. My hope is that anyone else who has played it enjoys it as much as I do.

 

That was offered to me during the time it took me to dump ten different games. I didn't ask--the offer was completely unexpected.

It took three days of headaches, trial, error, and difficulty to get even a couple of them to .bin format. I'm not complaining about the software I used--on the contrary, it's good to have something to work with. What I am saying, though, is that it's not as simple as plug in the cart and hit "Transfer Data", then post on the forums.

 

I don't think I'd do that much work again and not release the rom. Yes, it does contain some additional content that I don't think has ever been seen outside the developer's lab. The release of that content could well have hurt the price of the tape.

 

Why dump, even without a release? Simple. The tape is bleeding through from layer to layer on the reels. Play it and you can hear echoes of the header tones before the game even starts to load. I have a digitized copy of it that should last far longer.

One more reason to release, though, is that now many digitized copies exist, so if, say, my home is destroyed in a fire with the tape and my backup of it, the information is preserved and I'll probably be rocking Phaser Patrol again as soon as I can download it.

 

One question, though: How does one justify having dozens or hundreds of prototypes in the same home? I would be afraid that a disaster, like a fire, would destroy too much history, and for that reason I would want to sell some or perhaps loan them out to someone else to display with their collection.

 

EDIT: One other observation... I feel like I'm on the other side of folks saying "dump it, dump it!" Even though at the time I did not know that I would be offered the Phaser Patrol tape, I still had some second thoughts as to whether I should have volunteered to digitize and release it because of the potential drop in value. I'd be surprised if anyone who's got un released protos hasn't at one time or other put pressure (even if they didn't do it on purpose) on another person who also has unreleased protos to release them.

Edited by shadow460
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Looks like this question is never going to be totally resolved

 

here's an idea

 

have 2 versions of the dumped rom, on for the original hardware (be it nes/atari/sega etc) and 1 emulator version

 

on each version you have an additional patched program, which will look for unique identifiers for the hardware you are running (like on a pc or mac it might be the product/activation key or you IP address, or if it's on original hardware to look for version no's/serial nnumbers etc held in the bios...asuuming ofcourse that these numbers would be different for every nes/atari/sega machine released) the reason being is that you will only be able to run that cart or that rom image on that machine (or multiple machines if you bought additional machines usages, i.e using the same program on other machines) the idea been that you will only be able to use that game or rom image on that machine therefore limiting the possibility of people reproducing dumped versions of that program, because they will only able to using it on that or those machines

 

At least that way not only will people not be able to sell their copy, you will be able to control how many copies of the rom are out there

 

Someone would dump the cart. Then both versions would be on the net.

 

 

 

 

 

not unless they how how to hack the additional patch code (which is part of the cart/rom program) anyway, so it would be pointless

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Of *most* of the posts in the thread this one says the most to me -

 

I simply collect because I love the physical sight of the proto carts. I know the value of protos have gone down but I am happy just to see the carts like looking at baseball cards or stamps. I dump my games so if one or a few of my protos goes down due to bit rot, I can always reload the ROM onto the EPROM; no harm, no foul!!! :)

 

There are people calling out others to "put their money where their mouth is" and I can think of no bigger a current public proto collector nor a better person the Wonder. We know he has worked hard to collect what he has and spent quite a bit but he still dumps his games to protect them. Whether they are released or not is another story but I would say that he would be an authority on the matter. And we all do look forward to Racer and more but most importantly - Thank You! :)

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RetroFreak: Speaking in terms of "theory" means your argument can't be validated. No one wants to give away something for free. It's great that there are armchair collectors who always SAY they would do this and talk about other people's stuff, but they would never pay $XXXXX for any game by themselves, dump it for free, and just LOSE money on something that will be forgotten quick.

 

No one plays these games much after the first few days. The hype is gone and people forget.

 

I'm sure some smart Mega Drive collector is going to come after my stuff one day (one already has and a game will be released this year I think from one of my collection games) and do well with these games, but I have a significant amount of undumped Mega Drive and SNES stuff, and a small handful of NES to have access to.

 

Street Hero, War on Wheels and 2 to 3 others that are translations, but I have a good amount of NTSC unreleased stuff from PAL format, but a lot of people want the "big" unreleased in all countries part which can be rough to obtain and is a whole other genre.

 

 

 

Yes, i know my arguement doesn't seem "valid" to you because like i said, i'm speaking in a "i say it all and fail to deliver" kind a language, due to me that never had a record of contributing to anything here as of yet to support my arguement. Of course it can't be validated because it is spoken in terms of theory. But like i said before it's unlikely i would contribute to helping, although i would if i could. What i mean by speaking in terms of theory, is that i would do something i stated if it were possible to me. But anyhow, If i was some insanely rich bastard and didn't know what to do with my excessive ward of money i kept in some oversized safe or whatnot lol, yeah i would do such a thing, in theory. Perhaps i've should have stated that on my first post in this thread, because its what i really meant. But then if it's in theory, then why did i post you might would ask.

 

But in reality terms, if i did have spare money lying around and saw an undumped copy of any proto, i'd snap it up, dump a few ROMS of it, store it on my backup HDDs and maybe wait something like 5 years to enjoy owning something that is one-of-a-kind until i spill the beans to the "public" of a new discovery. If somebody guided me a way to make repros to recoup the losses, i'd definitely release the ROM freely thereafter like Wonder007.

Edited by <Retro-Freak>
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Looks like this question is never going to be totally resolved

 

here's an idea

 

have 2 versions of the dumped rom, on for the original hardware (be it nes/atari/sega etc) and 1 emulator version

 

on each version you have an additional patched program, which will look for unique identifiers for the hardware you are running (like on a pc or mac it might be the product/activation key or you IP address, or if it's on original hardware to look for version no's/serial nnumbers etc held in the bios...asuuming ofcourse that these numbers would be different for every nes/atari/sega machine released) the reason being is that you will only be able to run that cart or that rom image on that machine (or multiple machines if you bought additional machines usages, i.e using the same program on other machines) the idea been that you will only be able to use that game or rom image on that machine therefore limiting the possibility of people reproducing dumped versions of that program, because they will only able to using it on that or those machines

 

At least that way not only will people not be able to sell their copy, you will be able to control how many copies of the rom are out there

 

Someone would dump the cart. Then both versions would be on the net.

 

 

 

 

 

not unless they how how to hack the additional patch code (which is part of the cart/rom program) anyway, so it would be pointless

 

Because someone (or several someones) out there will be so offended that you would dare to release a code that has been altered and not in its true form. They will spend whatever time is required to undo this unjustice. It has been stated already that some would rather it not be released at all than to release code than has been altered in any way no matter how small.

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Of *most* of the posts in the thread this one says the most to me -

 

I simply collect because I love the physical sight of the proto carts. I know the value of protos have gone down but I am happy just to see the carts like looking at baseball cards or stamps. I dump my games so if one or a few of my protos goes down due to bit rot, I can always reload the ROM onto the EPROM; no harm, no foul!!! :)

 

There are people calling out others to "put their money where their mouth is" and I can think of no bigger a current public proto collector nor a better person the Wonder. We know he has worked hard to collect what he has and spent quite a bit but he still dumps his games to protect them. Whether they are released or not is another story but I would say that he would be an authority on the matter. And we all do look forward to Racer and more but most importantly - Thank You! :)

 

Wonder doesn't tell anyone else what to do with their own stuff. That is one of the reasons Wonder is an extra-ordinary person. Few would disagree. That means he does more than should be expected of anyone. To do less than extra-ordinary would be ordinary or normal or what is expected. Yet there is no ordinary and no normal. You are either a saint or a demon.

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Something else I've seen Wonder do is actually take the time to ensure that what he does release is finished. Sounds to me like the final release or Turbo is gonna be a lot closer to what was intended back in the day than it will be to what was on the proto cart he purchased.

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