José Pereira Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Now I understand the 23 colours on one line (PMs with PFs overlap with 3rd colour using multicolour PMs). But, as I said to you, I'v been studying "G2F" and in "Sprite priorities" instructions about "Druid" example, it says something about put priority number 0. What I understand from what is written, it´s the overlap technic between PMs and PFs. But it is written that it doesn´t work on a real machine. So, is this technic, a only emulator technic (I don´t think, accordind to POKE 623 with the correspondent values - you can see how to do that in some Atari 8bit books, just go to "ATARI ARCHIVES")? Another thing: if I use PM0/1 in multicolour mode to interact with PF0/1, I have a 3 rd colour in each one of PMs colour in the overlap place, right? But, if I have P0 alone of P1 (side by side, they don't overlap eachother). In this situation I don´t get 3rd sprite colour but if each player interact with playfield, will I get 3rd colour on PM/PF overlap. And a last question: If I use 2 PM in a screen, using "G2F" and save that screen, is there a possibity to use that screen and the other 2 sprites as player and enemy in a game, with the correspondent PFs/PMs priorities and collisions? Thanks, José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tebe Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 But it is written that it doesn´t work on a real machine. ??? it work on a real machine G2F is simulator, if works on G2F then works on real hardware Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luka Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 23 colours in line is impossible (i think) 16 is max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 23 colours in line is impossible (i think) 16 is max. http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=5923 Just load the demo "New Year's miracle" and cut a common scanline out and stretch it: You get a picture with 19 colours. How can this be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luka Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 in res. 4x1 we have 16 *5 (raster) + 3 (PM12) +3 (PM34) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 23 colours it's possible. Overlap PM0 with PM1(you get 3 colours) and PM2 with PM3(another 3 colours) In a same line put PF0/PF1/PF2/PF3, overlap PF0 with PM0/1 and PF1 with PM0/1. Do the same with PM2/3 and PF2/3. In final you have on the same line: PM0/1 - (by their own - 3COLOURS), PF0/PM0/(3rd sprite colour)/PM1 - (3COLOURS), PF1/PM0/(3rd sprite colour)/PM1 - (3COLOURS) = 9 colours. On the same line, the same for PF2/PF3 and PM2/3, you get more 9COLOURS. PF0/PF1/PF2/PF3 by their own - 4COLOURS. Background colour - 1COLOUR. CONCLUSION: 9+9+4+10= 23COLOURS. Simple (If they done this on the past?...) José Pereira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thanks to NRV for this image, 23 colors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I guess I am the only one who is completly unexperienced in terms of using this 23c mode for a game except for logos/static screens...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I guess I am the only one who is completly unexperienced in terms of using this 23c mode for a game except for logos/static screens...... Quatsch Particular the mode 0 overlay makes it possible to use simple PM shapes for overlay, and to have a fast movement! If someone puts it into G2F I could make reliable demonstrations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thinking of using 23 colours per scanline and 128 colours for the whole screen and fixed images... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 And now the history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 the Pawn or Guild of Thieves A8 ports are "excellent" examples for Antic E... I personally like Mask of the Sun and the Adams adventures with gfx more... even Dallas Quest has nice 4 col pics... and don't forget one of the first "G2F" adventures called "Neverending Story"... Your pic of Monkey Island is what I would call "static screen"-game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) Your pic of Monkey Island is what I would call "static screen"-game. Yes, but when talking about turrican, we don't talk about 128 colours. Even 17 colours per scanline and/or the whole screen would exceed the capabilities of the C64 To have a good framerate we could approximate 9 colours per scanline... Edited June 8, 2009 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 ...even Dallas Quest has nice 4 col pics... ... Since the inventory items where done with PMs (like the rifle in the first location), DQ has more than 4 colours too. So this game also 'G2F like'... The A800 graphics of the Magnetic Scrolls titles are really poor (bad C64 down conversions), while '221b Baker Street' images are great and (G2F like) colourful! CU Irgendwer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwin Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thanks to NRV for this image, 23 colors... @Jetboot Jack There is only 8 colors per scanline. @And to all - most important thing: How many times we can use chosen color in one scanline? if only one - static screen, games like Secret of the Monkey Island couldn't be done. This great trick only show what Atari can but in normal games, static pictures - entirely useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariNerd Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) Someone is getting nervous. Don't forget that these AND/OR 'tricks' done correctly can actually allow some sort of shading to the artwork, rather than relying on dithering a random color that might be darker or lighter to one next to it. 16 colors per line might be a number to brag about if that is all that matters, but having more colors, even if they are a few less than the C64, with some form of control over shading quality can provides more realistic pictures. Besides if random colors are important, assuming you have fewer to choose from, say 16, we would only need worry about getting more on screen in interesting patterns and not worry about if they are the "correct" ones. AND we still have DLI to play with... Most "classic" 8 bit games consist of static screens with a few moving sprites, do they not? Side-srollers are more the exception than the rule, with screens mainly "flipping" between one and another. Edited June 8, 2009 by AtariNerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thanks to NRV for this image, 23 colors... @Jetboot Jack There is only 8 colors per scanline. @And to all - most important thing: How many times we can use chosen color in one scanline? if only one - static screen, games like Secret of the Monkey Island couldn't be done. This great trick only show what Atari can but in normal games, static pictures - entirely useless. You can re-use the color register on the same scanline without having to restrict yourself to static pictures. You can use GTIA modes with sprites moving around... I think by default C64 people assume we are always talking about 160*200 mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 they assume 160x200 by default simply like we do that they have an "antic e", both untrue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 they assume 160x200 by default simply like we do that they have an "antic e", both untrue... Bad for the A8, not to have 16 colours via charmode Bad for the C64, not to have a linear video mode Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 yup... exactly... one of the cooler features of the vic is the switch highres/multicolour by char cell... that's really cool imho... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 irwin - that layout is only for clarity - all 23 colors can be on one scan line with no effort - there is NO DLI or other raster tricks in that picture, just PMG and playfield strips... sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRV Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 yes, for the "23 in the same line" thing you should do something like: if just for static pictures you could always do some kind of "line kernel", at the price of most of the machine cycles, for every scan line involved.. NRV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 yes, for the "23 in the same line" thing you should do something like: if just for static pictures you could always do some kind of "line kernel", at the price of most of the machine cycles, for every scan line involved.. NRV If creating a picture of 40 pixel width, we clearly can use all 23 colours without losing one dot of colour correctness Most pictures use wide areas of the same colours. See the MI2 picture. The Huts are fully brown with different shades. The grass is green with different shades, and the sky is blue with different shades. We have 5 colours to not to care about, where to place them. The player overlays give the needed painting. In some ranges we could reuse the same player and do a lineup with the missile where the "bad" line of the charmode is blocking the midline changes. And, well, the "kernal" won't reduce the cpu speed as some people might think, because it spares cycle stealing with DMA and refresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 ok. but you all have in mind that everytime we are talking about "kernels" we get more RAM usage not only by the colour tables and regarding the kernel routines for special cases. so actually a game must be designed around that and with 56k available of RAM it will be harder on stock machines... so aditional RAM is needed imho? Cohina board and other expansion boards... So to speak... this approach in putting "on top" of an existing game will be definitly hard and nearly impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 ok. but you all have in mind that everytime we are talking about "kernels" we get more RAM usage not only by the colour tables and regarding the kernel routines for special cases. so actually a game must be designed around that and with 56k available of RAM it will be harder on stock machines... so aditional RAM is needed imho? Cohina board and other expansion boards... So to speak... this approach in putting "on top" of an existing game will be definitly hard and nearly impossible. RAM size is no problem, since cartridges exist Development of this is as hard as using DirectX in Windows. Once a good library exist, every coder could take usage of it. Atari 800XL/XE seems really to be a weird platform. While Machine language coders doubt, the atari can have a good "great Giana Sisters" , some other guy writes a Mario Bros. Clone in Basic and uses digi sounds though.... http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=3825 Or colorful games with nice animations, also in basic http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=5001 But in Machine Language impossible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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