7800 Expansion Module

[Bakasama]

I still think it needs some sort of Flash Cart incorporated to make it truly viable, but wtf do I know

 

I've heard hints something like this is being worked.

 

I thought this expansion module was suppose to address the 7800's lack of a POKEY and RAM.

[Curt Vendel]

Someone is working on that as a separate product. I don't want feature overkill into this thing, it'll price it out of range for most people to buy and I want to try and get as many active 7800 owners to purchase one, so it can be a standard item and more people will be able to take advantage of games (and perhaps apps - like Basic, etc...) to use with it.

 

 

 

Curt

 

I still think it needs some sort of Flash Cart incorporated to make it truly viable, but wtf do I know

[DracIsBack]

At first I wasn't big on this idea, but the more I think about it, the more I'm interested. I guess it depends on the final price and what killer games that folks like GooveyBee and OpCode and all the others come up with for it ...

 

[Lendorien]

At first I wasn't big on this idea, but the more I think about it, the more I'm interested. I guess it depends on the final price and what killer games that folks like GooveyBee and OpCode and all the others come up with for it ...

 

 

Well, image what could be done with existing homebrew. If existing authors can be convinced to modify their homebrews, you have a core of games right there. This isn't to mention possible hacks. And with more ram available, I'd love to see what homebrew authors could do.

[GroovyBee]

Well, image what could be done with existing homebrew. If existing authors can be convinced to modify their homebrews, you have a core of games right there.

 

The homebrew games that have been released so far would immediately benefit from using POKEY sound. They probably couldn't make use of the extra RAM because they have already been designed to use the 4K available in the stock machine.

 

This isn't to mention possible hacks.

 

Hacks would only benefit from POKEY sound.

 

And with more ram available, I'd love to see what homebrew authors could do.

 

You want to see what the stock machine is capable of first .

[Lendorien]

Well, image what could be done with existing homebrew. If existing authors can be convinced to modify their homebrews, you have a core of games right there.

 

The homebrew games that have been released so far would immediately benefit from using POKEY sound. They probably couldn't make use of the extra RAM because they have already been designed to use the 4K available in the stock machine.

 

This isn't to mention possible hacks.

 

Hacks would only benefit from POKEY sound.

 

And with more ram available, I'd love to see what homebrew authors could do.

 

You want to see what the stock machine is capable of first .

 

For the record, when I was talking about existing homebrew, I was referring to upgrading the sound in them to fully use the Pokey feature of the expansion (ala Pacman Collection). You could take the core homebrew games and give them better sound. Doing so would make the expansion module more desirable to have by giving it a group of games that use it immediately when it is released. What I was talking about is trying to provide a compelling reason for people to buy one when it is released rather than making them wait until someone comes out with homebrew games that use all its features.

 

When I referred to ram in my last sentence, I was speaking about future homebrew development rather than existing titles.

 

So, we were actually on the same page all along, though I probably could have been more clear.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Lendorien

[HammR25]

I wonder how many people would buy this thing if a new Pokey enhanced Donkey Kong was made to go along with Pacman Collection? It would be nice to see Gorf release some games as well since I know some of his ideas required more RAM.

[opcode]

I wonder how many people would buy this thing if a new Pokey enhanced Donkey Kong was made to go along with Pacman Collection? It would be nice to see Gorf release some games as well since I know some of his ideas required more RAM.

 

If possible not Pokey enhanced, but created from scratch based on the arcade version.

[HammR25]

I wonder how many people would buy this thing if a new Pokey enhanced Donkey Kong was made to go along with Pacman Collection? It would be nice to see Gorf release some games as well since I know some of his ideas required more RAM.

 

If possible not Pokey enhanced, but created from scratch based on the arcade version.

Yep, that's what I meant. Do you know anyone that could do such a thing?

[GroovyBee]

If possible not Pokey enhanced, but created from scratch based on the arcade version.

 

It was done for the CoCo 3 :-

 

http://www.axess.com/twilight/sock/dk/

[+darryl1970]

I wonder how many people would buy this thing if a new Pokey enhanced Donkey Kong was made to go along with Pacman Collection? It would be nice to see Gorf release some games as well since I know some of his ideas required more RAM.

 

If possible not Pokey enhanced, but created from scratch based on the arcade version.

 

I am just reading, because I am intrigued by all of this. However, I agree with this. 7800 Donkey Kong is an insult. The sound is the nail in the coffin, because it's in your face; however, the entire game is a dumb-downed version of then disappointing NES version.

[opcode]

If possible not Pokey enhanced, but created from scratch based on the arcade version.

 

It was done for the CoCo 3 :-

 

http://www.axess.com/twilight/sock/dk/

 

And is being done for the ColecoVision.

 

[Curt Vendel]

I would love to see Steve show off his great coding skills, the only thing I would ask him is to go dark - stay off the boards, focus on the game, work with the cadre of other 7800 coders, iron it out to a point where it is ready for prime time, then do the unveiling when its ready to sell, no sneak peaks, demo's etc... this way he doesn't get distracted by comments, wishlists, gripes and swipes... just let him stay off of the boards and stay on the system and do the coding.

 

 

Curt

 

I wonder how many people would buy this thing if a new Pokey enhanced Donkey Kong was made to go along with Pacman Collection? It would be nice to see Gorf release some games as well since I know some of his ideas required more RAM.

[jaybird3rd]

I would love to see Steve show off his great coding skills, the only thing I would ask him is to go dark - stay off the boards, focus on the game, work with the cadre of other 7800 coders, iron it out to a point where it is ready for prime time, then do the unveiling when its ready to sell, no sneak peaks, demo's etc... this way he doesn't get distracted by comments, wishlists, gripes and swipes... just let him stay off of the boards and stay on the system and do the coding.

 

Curt

Yes. In fact, this is the way I'd love to see all homebrewers approach the game development process. Feedback from the community is invaluable for finding bugs and for eliciting ideas that you never might have thought of otherwise. It's also important to generate anticipation for a new game by giving the community a sense of being involved in the creative process. But if the developer exposes the game to the community too early, or if he makes the mistake of asking the community which game he should develop in the first place, he'll get so many conflicting ideas and so much "wishlisting" that he'll get discouraged and burned out before he even begins.

 

In my (admittedly limited) experience, a developer can only maintain the motivation to finish a game if it's a game that he wants to do, and if it is made in the way that he thinks it should be made. If he chooses, he can open up the game's more incidental aspects (color selection, sound effects, and so forth) to discussion, but not the more fundamental ones. Those decisions are the developer's alone, and he has to reserve the right to uphold his creative vision, especially if he's the kind of person whose temperament isn't made for long debates or for criticism from non-programmers. The easiest way to do that is to keep the game "under the covers" during the early stages: outside of a few trusted collaborators, don't even let anyone know the game exists until it's hardened enough to be ready for tweaking and bug-testing. I think the same principle applies to hardware projects like the Expansion Module: Curt established the core feature set, then got feedback on implementation issues such as the addresses to use for POKEY and RAM.

 

I'm still hoping that Steve comes back and finishes Warbirds someday. Since that's a game that supports POKEY and the High Score Cartridge, it too would be a great incentive to encourage people to get the Expansion Module.

[GroovyBee]

I wonder how many people would buy this thing if a new Pokey enhanced Donkey Kong was made to go along with Pacman Collection?

 

I had a quick look at the ROM image yesterday and it looks to have free space in it before the signature. So in theory its possible to make a POKEY version. However, I'm not saying that I'm volunteering for the job .

[Underball]

I would love to see Steve show off his great coding skills, the only thing I would ask him is to go dark - stay off the boards, focus on the game, work with the cadre of other 7800 coders, iron it out to a point where it is ready for prime time, then do the unveiling when its ready to sell, no sneak peaks, demo's etc... this way he doesn't get distracted by comments, wishlists, gripes and swipes... just let him stay off of the boards and stay on the system and do the coding.

 

Curt

Yes. In fact, this is the way I'd love to see all homebrewers approach the game development process. Feedback from the community is invaluable for finding bugs and for eliciting ideas that you never might have thought of otherwise. It's also important to generate anticipation for a new game by giving the community a sense of being involved in the creative process. But if the developer exposes the game to the community too early, or if he makes the mistake of asking the community which game he should develop in the first place, he'll get so many conflicting ideas and so much "wishlisting" that he'll get discouraged and burned out before he even begins.

 

In my (admittedly limited) experience, a developer can only maintain the motivation to finish a game if it's a game that he wants to do, and if it is made in the way that he thinks it should be made. If he chooses, he can open up the game's more incidental aspects (color selection, sound effects, and so forth) to discussion, but not the more fundamental ones. Those decisions are the developer's alone, and he has to reserve the right to uphold his creative vision, especially if he's the kind of person whose temperament isn't made for long debates or for criticism from non-programmers. The easiest way to do that is to keep the game "under the covers" during the early stages: outside of a few trusted collaborators, don't even let anyone know the game exists until it's hardened enough to be ready for tweaking and bug-testing. I think the same principle applies to hardware projects like the Expansion Module: Curt established the core feature set, then got feedback on implementation issues such as the addresses to use for POKEY and RAM.

 

I'm still hoping that Steve comes back and finishes Warbirds someday. Since that's a game that supports POKEY and the High Score Cartridge, it too would be a great incentive to encourage people to get the Expansion Module.

Steve's issues were never due to sharing too much with the community. Just the opposite. His paranoia over releasing WIP roms, and roms in general rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And not just because he didn't want to release them, but mostly because he was a really abusive jerk about it to anyone who asked, and would go on for days and days ruining threads arguing his point with people instead of spending that time coding.

[HammR25]

Steve's issues were never due to sharing too much with the community. Just the opposite. His paranoia over releasing WIP roms, and roms in general rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And not just because he didn't want to release them, but mostly because he was a really abusive jerk about it to anyone who asked, and would go on for days and days ruining threads arguing his point with people instead of spending that time coding.

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned that name. Let it go.

[jaybird3rd]

Steve's issues were never due to sharing too much with the community. Just the opposite. His paranoia over releasing WIP roms, and roms in general rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And not just because he didn't want to release them, but mostly because he was a really abusive jerk about it to anyone who asked, and would go on for days and days ruining threads arguing his point with people instead of spending that time coding.

I don't want to derail this thread any further, so I'll just say this: if you release WIP screenshots of a game you're working on before the game is finished (or even "feature-complete"), you're only setting yourself up for a barrage of requests for WIP ROMs, additional features, etc. As I said earlier, it's best to keep those things under wraps until you have something that's ready for people to try on their own. Also, if you have the kind of personality that isn't made for PR, you should probably find someone to handle your interactions with the community (eliciting feedback, sorting through feature/change requests, etc) for you.

[GroovyBee]

I don't want to derail this thread any further, so I'll just say this: if you release WIP screenshots of a game you're working on before the game is finished (or even "feature-complete"), you're only setting yourself up for a barrage of requests for WIP ROMs, additional features, etc. As I said earlier, it's best to keep those things under wraps until you have something that's ready for people to try on their own.

 

Personally I think its good to tease people in a nice way about stuff that's being worked on. It gives them something to look forward to, just like waiting for the same console game releases back in the day. Anticipation is always good in a niche market like the 7800 homebrew scene.

 

Also, if you have the kind of personality that isn't made for PR, you should probably find someone to handle your interactions with the community (eliciting feedback, sorting through feature/change requests, etc) for you.

 

Hmmm... Not all programmers are people people is what you're saying. I like the fact that several of my projects are more than a one man effort. My programmer art skills will get me so far but working with real pixel artists can take the ideas and games so much further. I think its a good healthy community when there are programmers, artists and musicians to create new works and then people who can make carts, CDs, labels, manuals and boxes so the games come out on physical media.

[Underball]

Steve's issues were never due to sharing too much with the community. Just the opposite. His paranoia over releasing WIP roms, and roms in general rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And not just because he didn't want to release them, but mostly because he was a really abusive jerk about it to anyone who asked, and would go on for days and days ruining threads arguing his point with people instead of spending that time coding.

I don't want to derail this thread any further, so I'll just say this: if you release WIP screenshots of a game you're working on before the game is finished (or even "feature-complete"), you're only setting yourself up for a barrage of requests for WIP ROMs, additional features, etc. As I said earlier, it's best to keep those things under wraps until you have something that's ready for people to try on their own. Also, if you have the kind of personality that isn't made for PR, you should probably find someone to handle your interactions with the community (eliciting feedback, sorting through feature/change requests, etc) for you.

 

I completely agree.

[opcode]

Ok, so I am gonna say something here that I am not sure most people will agree or not but anyway, that is my opinion.

Releasing WIP ROMs of a game is the same as releasing WIP cuts of a movie. Do you see any studios doing that? No... Can you guess why not?

WIP screenshots, short videoclips, etc, that is all fine in my book, you are just teasing and creating anticipation, but WIP ROMs just ruin the experience to me. There isn't much left to look forward to when the game is finally released.

[Underball]

Ok, so I am gonna say something here that I am not sure most people will agree or not but anyway, that is my opinion.

Releasing WIP ROMs of a game is the same as releasing WIP cuts of a movie. Do you see any studios doing that? No... Can you guess why not?

WIP screenshots, short videoclips, etc, that is all fine in my book, you are just teasing and creating anticipation, but WIP ROMs just ruin the experience to me. There isn't much left to look forward to when the game is finally released.

I think it really depends on the state of progress. If it's like 90% done, and just needs tweaking or a little polish, I think it helps in the design process when a coder might get burnt out just before finishing a huge project. Positive encouragement, or other's ideas on things you might have missed, or not thought of can really make a game shine. If it's only partially playable, or has serious problems/crashes, then yeah - it's not worth it really to release a WIP.

 

And Movie Producers do release trailers for pretty much every movie made.

[jaybird3rd]

Personally I think its good to tease people in a nice way about stuff that's being worked on. It gives them something to look forward to, just like waiting for the same console game releases back in the day. Anticipation is always good in a niche market like the 7800 homebrew scene.

I agree; in fact, I'd probably do the same thing if I had something far enough along where I could show it off in a screenshot or a movie. But depending on how it's handled, it can also backfire (for example, if the developer starts "teasing" people too early and then makes them wait forever for the finished product).

 

Hmmm... Not all programmers are people people is what you're saying.

I was trying to be diplomatic, but yes, that's the general idea. And if a developer is not a "people person," I think he needs to be aware of that going in so he can choose the appropriate mode of interaction with the community, especially given that the success of these homebrew game projects seems to depend heavily on the degree of good will the author has maintained within the community. If the author is perceived as friendly and approachable, I think more people will be eager to support his efforts than if he's perceived as abrasive or confrontational.

 

I like the fact that several of my projects are more than a one man effort. My programmer art skills will get me so far but working with real pixel artists can take the ideas and games so much further. I think its a good healthy community when there are programmers, artists and musicians to create new works and then people who can make carts, CDs, labels, manuals and boxes so the games come out on physical media.

Oh yes, I think a game can certainly benefit from the participation of artists, musicians, and so forth, especially if it's for a platform that can really show off the value of the art. When I was talking about keeping a WIP game "under wraps," I was referring more to keeping it away from the general public until the appropriate time.

 

To me, the ideal situation would be to have different "levels" of participation: maybe a small group of collaborating artists or developers who are involved from the beginning, some beta testers who can be trusted with WIP ROMs later on, and finally, screenshots and video for the general public when the game is more or less completed and ready for general feedback. Doing everything out in the open from the beginning seems to me to be a dangerous way to work, but then again, every developer works differently and we all have to choose methods that work best for us. The main point is to keep oneself motivated to finish the project, and any method that serves that end (and doesn't piss people off) is fine with me.

[GroovyBee]

WIP screenshots, short videoclips, etc, that is all fine in my book, you are just teasing and creating anticipation, but WIP ROMs just ruin the experience to me. There isn't much left to look forward to when the game is finally released.

 

This approach is fine for arcade or existing home computer ports. People can just fire up MAME or their computer of choice and play the game to get a feel for what to expect. For original works I don't think its very workable.

[gdement]

I have no problem with people not sharing their ROMs for a marketable project. I'd probably do the same thing.

================================

 

 

I'm going to elaborate on something I mentioned earlier, and then I'll let it go.

 

The way XBoard RAM is implemented, your cart has to leave the entire $4000-$7fff address space vacant, or you can't use the RAM at all. This is a huge problem I think. It's hard to visualize a game that can run on just the system RAM, but then has use for 128KB of expansion RAM. It's easier to visualize a game that needs 8KB in the cart, and can take advantage of another 64KB of expansion.

 

The expansion RAM would be much more useful if it could be enabled only inside of $6000-$7fff. That way you can have 8KB in your cartridge and support both normal consoles and those with the expansion. Otherwise you have to make 2 versions of the cartridge, and almost nobody will buy the expansion-only version. Even people who own expansions will prefer a cart that works in normal consoles.

 

 

Configuration:

I'm assuming the configuration is intended to be similar to XBoard. This is how the XBoard configuration is handled:

http://www.x-game.se/products/xboard.htm

 

RAM is enabled by setting bit 3 of XCTRL. Bits 5,6,7 in this value are unused. Perhaps bits 5 and 6 could be used to control what address range is enabled.

Or, just drop support for $4000-$5fff altogether and reduce RAM size to 64KB. I think even that would be better than the 128KB, oversized window approach.

Either way, there should also be some easy way to detect the difference between the Vendel expansion and the XBoard.